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icerock

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
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Hi,

Please help! I''m struggling to choose between these two diamonds...

Diamond A
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.88
Cut: Very Good
Colour: E
Clarity: VS1
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
L/W Ratio: 1.00
Depth %: 63.8%
Table %: 56.0%
Measurements: 6.07 x 6.10 x 3.88 mm
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium
Culet: None

and

Diamond B
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.88
Cut: Very Good
Colour: H
Clarity: VVS2
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
L/W Ratio: 1.01
Depth %: 62.6%
Table %: 59.0%
Measurements: 6.13 x 6.17 x 3.85 mm
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Thin
Culet: Small

Diamond A is around 300 Euros more than Diamond B.

Will I notice the colour and clarity differences?

Many thanks!
James
 
If they''re graded properly, and unless you''re especially color sensitive, you''ll probably find the H totally white enough for your purposes, especially once set.
 
Date: 1/6/2010 11:15:29 AM
Author:icerock
Hi,

Please help! I'm struggling to choose between these two diamonds...

Diamond A
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.88
Cut: Very Good
Colour: E
Clarity: VS1
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
L/W Ratio: 1.00
Depth %: 63.8%
Table %: 56.0%
Measurements: 6.07 x 6.10 x 3.88 mm
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium
Culet: None

and

Diamond B
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.88
Cut: Very Good
Colour: H
Clarity: VVS2
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
L/W Ratio: 1.01
Depth %: 62.6%
Table %: 59.0%
Measurements: 6.13 x 6.17 x 3.85 mm
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Thin
Culet: Small

Diamond A is around 300 Euros more than Diamond B.

Will I notice the colour and clarity differences?

Many thanks!
James
Click to expand...
Hi James

First diamond is much too deep, I would pass on it for that reason alone and the second is too deep for my preference also but it is a better depth than the first. Do you have the crown and pavilion angles for the second diamond please so we can get a better idea if you wish to pursue this one? Are they both GIA graded? Are you buying online or from a brick and mortar store?
 
If diamond A was identically deep, by percentage, to stone B, the weight of stone A would be 0.86ct rather than 0.88. The average diameter of stone B is 0.06mm larger than stone A, so stone B is a tiny, tiny bit larger in total surface area although you likely can''t see the difference without very close examination of the two side by side.

Unless you have great color sensitivity, the H stone will do it for most consumers. You can always find a different diamond, such as an F or G with VS1 or VS2 clarity which might be similarly priced and cut very much the same as stone B. The search is a big part of the pleasure or pain of finding the correct one to buy.
 
Hi James,

Is Cut-quality or sparkle important for you? If so, please follow Lorelei''s advice and make sure to get at least all the angles on stone B.

Live long,
 
Run the numbers for both stones through the Holloway Cut Adviser which is available from the Tools / Cut Adviser link located at the top of this page... Once you obtain the scores, notice what happens to the score when you reduce the total depth of the diamond to somewhere between 59 - 61.8% you''ll need the crown and pavilion angle measurements for the diamonds in order to obtain any sort of accurate assessment. Right now you''re considering these diamonds with only part of the information required to make an informed decision, it''s like shopping for a car without knowing the size of the engine. The pavilion angle controls most of the light return that the diamond will exhibit while the crown angle has a lot to do with the type of light return will be displayed by the diamond. Personally, I prefer a crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees offset by a pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees with a total depth between 59 - 61.8% - punch those numbers into the HCA with a table diameter between 53 - 57% and see how that compares.

On a side note, Length to Width ratio (L/W Ratio) is something which I have never thought to apply to a round brilliant cut diamond in terms of a description on a listing. That''s hot
2.gif
 
Thanks everyone! I didn''t realise that the dimensions where so important...arrrgg this is starting to do my head in! I''m so glad I asked the question now!
6.gif
and that I stumbled onto such a great forum!

Firstly, I apologise for the following dumb questions
1.gif

Why is the depth so important? I thought the Cut Grade would be enough?
What is the difference between Cut-quality and sparkle? I thought cut-quality resulted in sparkle?

To answer some questions:
* Both are GIA graded
* Buying blind - online (entire ring)

Diamond B
Crown Angle: 34.0 degrees
Crown Height: 14.0%
Pavilion Angle: 42.4 degrees
Pavilion Depth: 45.5%
Star Length: 60%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: THN to STK
Faceted: 3.6 degrees
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud

These don''t fall within range to any of your preferences Todd! Does this mean it won''t have fire/sparkle?
I''m doomed..
39.gif


Thanks guys!
James
 
Ditto - that pavilion is very, very deep.


If you post your budget here the board can help you find a winner
1.gif



ETA: Depth isn't so important by itself (there's the generic "it has the same volume so face up area must be reduced" relationship, but this won't dictate on a case-by-case basis as there are too many other variables) - it's what exactly causes the excess depth that's the issue. It could be caused by a diamond with a steep crown and steep pavilion, or by a diamond with a nice crown and even steeper pavilion, like this one, or maybe an overly thick girdle is hiding weight but c/p is a good combo. All these things have to be in proportion to each other to have an aesthetically pleasing, well-cut, sparkly stone..
 
Actually, James, you are not doomed, but saved.

You are saving yourself from buying a stone that does not have the appropriate surface for its weight, nor the best sparkle.

You posting this on this forum might be the best decision in your buying-process.

Live long,
 
Throw out both choices and start again. If you need help, just post your budget and specs here.
 
Use the HCA tool here (scores of 2 and below are worth consideration)
https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

A quick cheat sheet for rounds ...

depth 60-62%
table 54-57%
crown angle 34-35 degrees
pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 degrees

polish and symmetry - very good and above
girdle - avoid extremes (like very thin to very thick)

That should help you get started. If you would like us to suggest some stones let us know what your budget is and we can
hunt some down for you to take a look at.
 
*breaths* phew i think this forum has def saved me! I was very close to purchasing...

I have a budget of 3500 Euros (5000 USD) for the stone.

Its 0.88 carats because its our anniversary date...but i''m thinking that that maybe limiting my choices too much now.

If I did purchase B, would that have been a disaster?
 
Date: 1/6/2010 2:18:43 PM
Author: icerock

These don''t fall within range to any of your preferences Todd! Does this mean it won''t have fire/sparkle?

I''m doomed..
39.gif
Click to expand...

You''re far from doomed James, the fact that you''re taking the time to learn more about diamonds by use of this forum before making a purchase tells me that you''re smart enough to conduct some research before making a purchase... This is what the forum is for and there are no dumb questions, just answers based on different levels of experience.

Anybody on the forum will tell you that I''m a bit of a numerical purist and I tend to take the safe, high road when it comes to selecting diamonds "by the numbers" which is a proven method for buying diamonds sight unseen online... It is the first step of our own selection process used when purchasing diamonds from the diamond cutters we work with. I''m not allowed to comment on the specifics of diamonds mentioned on the forum due to forum rules, so forgive me for not addressing your question pertaining to the offset of the crown and pavilion angle - perhaps another forum regular who is not a vendor will address that question for you - perhaps Lorelei?

But generally speaking, here is what I recommend as the "safe zone" for taking most of the guesswork out of narrowing down the list of diamonds which are available online:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to slightly thick, preferably faceted
Culet: GIA none or AGS pointed (same thing, different vernacular)

There are other combinations of crown / pavilion angle which work well together, for instance a shallow crown with a steep pavilion and vice versa, but knowing which specific combinations will work takes a lot more time than most people want to devote to buying a diamond - which is why I like my "safe zone".

Once you''ve found some options within that range of measurements, the next step would be to ask the seller for a computerized proportions analysis (Sarin, OGI, Helium) showing the facet-by-facet measurements for each section of the diamond to ensure that the high and low measurements for the crown / pavilion sections are within close proximity of each other and not something like an entire degree off of each other - yes, I''ve seen it, even with "ideal" production! And it results in less light return around the edge of the stone, which makes the edge dark and the stone appear smaller than the actual diameter.

Once you''ve determined that the range of the high / low measurements for the crown / pavilion angle are within close proximity of each other - such as a low pavilion angle measurement of 40.6 degrees and a high of 41.0 degrees which would result in an average of 40.8 degrees stated on the lab report... Ask the seller for images of the diamond as seen through an ASET, Ideal Scope and Hearts & Arrows (Gems Fantasy) Scope in order to ensure that the optical symmetry of the diamond is, well, symmetrical... Lots of articles on this subject here on the forum, just run a search for ASET scope, etc. or read the tutorials on these instruments available here on PS and on the web sites of most vendors who frequent the forum.

And ask, ask, ask, lots of questions - post those images, you''ll get good feedback from those who are able to answer those questions...
 
Date: 1/6/2010 2:49:23 PM
Author: icerock
If I did purchase B, would that have been a disaster?
Click to expand...
B will probably perform as well as a piece of glass.
 
So if these diamonds are so bad why is it graded as Very Good for the cut?
 
Even with Excellent on the cut scale there is still a lot of variation and range. The stones are rated for brilliance, fire and scintillation. A stone can have any combination of more or less of these characteristics. GIA is more liberal than the typical PS poster. We want our stones to be the best of the best with regards to cut.
 
Date: 1/6/2010 2:53:16 PM
Author: Todd Gray
I'm not allowed to comment on the specifics of diamonds mentioned on the forum due to forum rules, so forgive me for not addressing your question pertaining to the offset of the crown and pavilion angle - perhaps another forum regular who is not a vendor will address that question for you - perhaps Lorelei?
Click to expand...

I would be glad to help Todd!

icerock, the pavilion angle on diamond B is much too steep, once we get a pavilion angle that steep various problems can arise. Firstly, this angle can cause light leakage, this can show as a dark ring around the table of the stone, if very bad the diamond can look like a doughnut at some angles due to this. The leakage means light is escaping from the stone, rather than bouncing back and hitting you in the eye as sparkle, the light leaks out and is lost leaving you with a dull, dark, boring diamond. Also colour entrapment is a risk, starting at around H colour it is possible this angle will make the diamond look of lower colour than it is, the stone will also look worse when dirty. In short, it would be best to keep looking. Try to keep pavilion angles between 40.6- 41 degrees where possible and always confirm a diamond's proportions with an Idealscope image.
 
Thanks guys!

I have done a litle more searching and have found these:

Diamond C
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.81
Cut: Excellent
Colour: H
Clarity: IF
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 35.0 degrees
Pavilion Angle: 40.8 degrees
Girdle: Medium - Slghtly Thick (Faceted) 3.5%
Culet: None
Measurements: 5.99 - 6.02 x 3.70 mm
Clarity Characteristics: None
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

HCA
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 1.6 - Excellent within TIC range


Diamond D
Shape: Round
Carat: 0.80
Cut: Excellent
Colour: H
Clarity: IF
Depth: 62%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 34.5 degrees
Pavilion Angle: 41.2 degrees
Girdle: Medium - Medium (Faceted) 3.5%
Culet: Very Small
Measurements: 5.95 - 5.98 x 3.70 mm
Clarity Characteristics: None
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

HCA
Light Return Very Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.3 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right


C is around 500 Euros (700 USD) more than D.
Will there be a big difference to justify the difference in price?

Cheers,
James
 
Are you obsessed with clarity? I personally think VVS__ and IF are overkill. You can get more bang for your buck with H/I''s and VS1=SI1 clarity.
 
Numbers on C are excellent! I would pass on D--a little steep in the pavillion and with that crown angle, will likely not be the best performer. Is there a reason for the IF clarity, or is that just what was available? If you want to save money, drop clarity to VS and stay with similar numbers--you'd pay less and not be able to see any difference in the diamonds. Do not drop your requirements on cut quality--the difference between the two is a truly excellent cut vs. above average, but not spectacular cut.
 
not really...i''m new to this and wasn''t sure....what about these then? Would the colour be noticable from H?

Diamond E
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.04 - 6.07 x 3.73 mm
Carat Weight: 0.82 carat
Color Grade: F
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 33.5°
Pavilion Angle: 41.4°
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics:
Pinpoint, Crystal, Feather, Cloud

Diamond F
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.04 - 6.07 x 3.75 mm
Carat Weight: 0.84 carat
Color Grade: G
Clarity Grade: VVS2
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.9%
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 35.0°
Pavilion Angle: 41.0°
Star length: 55%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics:
Pinpoint
 
E is a pass. Keep the pavillion angle at 40.6-41, even a seemingly small amount over can have a dramatic effect on performance.

F is a maybe. 35/41 is sometimes good, sometimes not. We would need an Idealscope image to tell. You''d still be paying a premium for VVS clarity.

Use the guidelines that Todd and tyty posted above to help with your search. Just as an added point, with pavillion angle of 40.6, you want a crown angle of 34.5-35. PA of 40.8, CA 34-35 and PA 41, CA 34-34.5.

As far as color, if you put a F and H unmounted side by side in controlled lighting, you may see a slight difference. By itself, mounted in a ring, probably not.
 
Date: 1/7/2010 10:41:54 AM
Author: jet2ks
E is a pass. Keep the pavillion angle at 40.6-41, even a seemingly small amount over can have a dramatic effect on performance.

F is a maybe. 35/41 is sometimes good, sometimes not. We would need an Idealscope image to tell. You''d still be paying a premium for VVS clarity.

Use the guidelines that Todd and tyty posted above to help with your search. Just as an added point, with pavillion angle of 40.6, you want a crown angle of 34.5-35. PA of 40.8, CA 34-35 and PA 41, CA 34-34.5.

As far as color, if you put a F and H unmounted side by side in controlled lighting, you may see a slight difference. By itself, mounted in a ring, probably not.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, the proportions are borderline and no way to judge without an Idealscope image unfortunately, ask the vendor if they can supply one.
 
I think the best bag for your buck while still ensuring that the diamond will look white and eye clean is G/H and VS2. Can you search for diamonds with those specs and assess the cut quality of the contenders then? I suggest this because without narrowing those specs there are literally *millions* of options out there.
 
The results of the HCA is below. Does this mean that this method can sometimes be wrong?

Diamond E
Light Return Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.8 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

Diamond F
Light Return Very Good
Fire Very Good
Scintillation Very Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 2.3 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right
 
Date: 1/7/2010 2:06:12 PM
Author: icerock
The results of the HCA is below. Does this mean that this method can sometimes be wrong?
Click to expand...
The HCA is strictly a screening tool used to weed out diamonds that have a poor chance of being a good performer. It is only a tool and like any tool, can be used incorrectly. The idea is that a very high percentage of diamonds that score below 2 will be top performing stones (though not all are appropriate for a ring, some are better suited to earrings and pendants) As the HCA score goes up, the odds of having a high performance stone goes down. There are a lot of diamonds that score 2-2.5 on the HCA that are gorgeous, there are also many that are duds. Once you get above 2.5, and especially above 3, your odds go down drastically and those are ones that would need to be looked at in person by an experienced eye to sort out the few roses from all the thorns. As consumers, we don't have the time or background to evaluate those stones. What all the people and tools here on PS do is try to find you a great diamond that you can have confidence in and not roll the dice.

From what you have posted so far, Diamond C scored 1.6 on the HCA and will in all liklihood be an outstanding performer. Diamond F scored 2.3 and we are asking for more information because it could go either way. The other stones all have higher scores for the same reasons we are recommending you pass on them--they have very poor chances of being good.
 
ahhh I see, thanks jet2ks, I think i'm starting to get a hang of this.

I'm really liking this one (proportions attached) and interestingly its been the cheapest so far. The only thing is the pavilion angle is 40.5 which is just out of what everyone has recommended...what does this mean?

And do you think the inclusions will be noticed by the naked eye?

Unfortunately they cannot provide any more images like idealscope.

Diamond G
Round Brilliant
Carat Weight: 0.80
Color Grade: AGS 1.0 (F)
Clarity Grade: AGS3 (VS1)
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0
Finish:
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: Negligible

Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 0.5 - Excellent within TIC range

Thanks,
James

James123_G.JPG
 
I like that one!

The 40.5 pavillion shouldn''t be a problem, as the crown is a little higher. The main issue that sometimes comes up with shallower pavillioned stones is obstruction, and this is usually in correlation to a slightly shallower crown, as well. Obstruction is where the diamond darkens noticably when viewed at a close distance. If you can see the diamond in person, you can check this out by bending over the stone to a normal close viewing distance, say 10 inches or so, and see if the diamond goes dark.

VS1 inclusions should not be visible to the naked eye. By definition they are very difficult for a trained grader to see at 10x magnification.

The one feature of this stone to take into consideration is that with 71% lower girdle facets, the diamond will have a chunkier look to the facets under the table, the arrows will appear thicker. It is not bad or good, just a personal preference--some people like the look, some don''t. Someone who doesn''t look at a lot of diamonds may never notice.
 
Date: 1/7/2010 3:38:32 PM
Author: icerock

Diamond G
Round Brilliant
Carat Weight: 0.80
Color Grade: AGS 1.0 (F)
Clarity Grade: AGS3 (VS1)
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0
Finish:
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: Negligible
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread: Very Good

Total Visual Performance 0.5 - Excellent within TIC range
Click to expand...

Nice!! There shouldn''t be any worries about inclusions in a VS1. They''ll be pretty hard to find.
 
Great, sounds promising =)

I''m about to take the plunge, are there any other thoughts about this latest diamond that I should be concerned about?

Thanks,
James
 
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