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Color or Carat?

F

FirstTimeBuyer128

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
13
Hi All,

I have picked out a 1.8 carat F VS1 for an engagement ring. Of course I am having second (or maybe third or fourth) thoughts. Would you rather have a 2.0 carat, but decrease the color to a H or I or keep what I have picked out?

If you had $30k budget for a diamond, which one out there would you buy?

Thanks for the input! :)
 
Just to clarify, this would be a round diamond. Thanks.
 
is the 1.8 30K? I wouldn't want anything less than 2 cts for 30K.
 
Color or carat? I say both because it really depends on each, individual stone. I'd have to do a side-by-side comparison (in person) of the actual stones in order to make a decision between the two.
 
If we are talking near colorless 2ct vs colorless 1.8 all other things equal no question for me it's size.
 
What lab graded them? GIA is the strictest on color, and I have my suspicions (because I own a AGS F) that an AGS F might often be a GIA G. That said, I can only notice any tint at all from the side, and that's if I look really hard or I put it beside a colorless cz. And EGL has been know to be as much as 2-3 grades off (soft grading) so EGL F might be GIA H or I, in reality.

The best-cut stones mostly get sent to AGS, because they are strict on cut and symmetry. GIA gets a mix of top cuts, but also other stones because the GIA triple excellent is more lenient and you can read the jewelers here say "There are some GIA 3x that I would not have in my store." EGL is soft on color, and also gives more favorable ratings to older cuts like OEC and OMC, diamonds with low crown and big tables like were common in the '50s - '70s, etc. Cutters and jewelers choose (often choose) the lab that will give that particular stone the best-sounding report.

The "I" color grade is where most people can start to see color. It should still face up white, but a bit softer white.

I think I might be okay with a GIA H in that size range (1.8 - 2ct). A 1.8 might be about the same diameter as a 2ct, so you really have to factor in how shallow or deep is the diamond.

Which brings up another issue: How well cut? Once they get near the 2ct mark, many cutters go for weight retention and not ideal or super-ideal cut. So, people are going to ask you to get ASET images to show here before they say yes or no to a stone. You probably should not compromise much on cut, but compromise a little might be okay if you like the way the diamond looks.

eta: 7.8mm probably looks close enough to 8mm (2ct) especially once it's set. I calculate a 5.2% difference in surface area between 7.8mm and 8mm, if I did it right. Pricescope has a rule of thumb that you should do an upgrade if you get a 10% increase in diameter. I think only close comparison of 7.8mm beside 8.0mm at very close range would be required to actually notice the difference.
 
I think it really comes down to what is most important to you and what you will be comfortable with in the long term. The spectrum is huge for price, size, cut and clarity. I have been looking at a 4.04 carat EGL certified H/Si1 stone for $36K. The measurements of the stone are 10.09x9.93x6.33. The clarity is a little less than what you want, but it's almost double the stone size for a little bit more. Let me know what you think of this stone.

img_20140109_120832_0.jpg
 
Thanks for the well-thought out response.

The diamond I currently bought is this one:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-f-color-vs1-clarity_LD03801418?keyword_search_value=LD03801418

It was GIA graded. While I know from reading PS, most won't buy from Bluenile since they want to see Idealscope and ASET images, I did pick a well cut diamond (based on numbers anyway). I did receive the ring and it does sparkle increadibly.

I had read not to sacrifice on color or cut. However, on this forum many people seem to be just fine going in the near-colorless range which has really made me doubt the diamond I bought. In person, I was able to see differences in the color of the diamonds fairly easily from the side (as you mention), but never from the top.

I am surprised to hear AGS might be softer on grading color as I hadn't read this before and it makes me more concerned. I don't want to buy an AGS I if it's really even lower than that...

While I am very happy with the look of the diamond I picked out, I also don't want to be a fool and spend money on parts of the diamond that don't really matter to most people. I'm very far from a diamond expert (admittedly I hadn't even paid any attention to any of my friend's diamonds until about a month ago).


TC1987|1389301913|3589740 said:
What lab graded them? GIA is the strictest on color, and I have my suspicions (because I own a AGS F) that an AGS F might often be a GIA G. That said, I can only notice any tint at all from the side, and that's if I look really hard or I put it beside a colorless cz. And EGL has been know to be as much as 2-3 grades off (soft grading) so EGL F might be GIA H or I, in reality.

The best-cut stones mostly get sent to AGS, because they are strict on cut and symmetry. GIA gets a mix of top cuts, but also other stones because the GIA triple excellent is more lenient and you can read the jewelers here say "There are some GIA 3x that I would not have in my store." EGL is soft on color, and also gives more favorable ratings to older cuts like OEC and OMC, diamonds with low crown and big tables like were common in the '50s - '70s, etc. Cutters and jewelers choose (often choose) the lab that will give that particular stone the best-sounding report.

The "I" color grade is where most people can start to see color. It should still face up white, but a bit softer white.

I think I might be okay with a GIA H in that size range (1.8 - 2ct). A 1.8 might be about the same diameter as a 2ct, so you really have to factor in how shallow or deep is the diamond.

Which brings up another issue: How well cut? Once they get near the 2ct mark, many cutters go for weight retention and not ideal or super-ideal cut. So, people are going to ask you to get ASET images to show here before they say yes or no to a stone. You probably should not compromise much on cut, but compromise a little might be okay if you like the way the diamond looks.

eta: 7.8mm probably looks close enough to 8mm (2ct) especially once it's set. I calculate a 5.2% difference in surface area between 7.8mm and 8mm, if I did it right. Pricescope has a rule of thumb that you should do an upgrade if you get a 10% increase in diameter. I think only close comparison of 7.8mm beside 8.0mm at very close range would be required to actually notice the difference.
Click to expand...
 
2 carat ideal cut G or H.... SI1 totally eye clean. tthat's what my GIA 3.66 stone is and couldn't see the one inclusion unless you had it under a microscope
 
I've spoken with 3 well respected PS vendors who all say that color grading differences between GIA and AGS are practically negligible. In other words, the notion that GIA is stricter than AGS on color is false.
 
Honestly - drop clarity a bit. You'll be able to get more size / higher color. It sounds like the current color is bothering you, so I'd look for an eye-clean SI stone. Pay for what you CAN see (color) not for something you literally CAN'T see (inclusions in eye clean stones).

Unless there is a reason you are going for such high clarity.

Just keep in mind that an ideal cut stone will face up larger and whiter due to it's light return than a less well cut stone. And without an idealscope image we really don't know how well your GIA stone performs. But it's a moot point if YOU like it.
 
I'd drop to H VS2 or H SI1 to get over 2ct in an ideal cut.
 
I wouldn't drop to H or I but would try for the nearest to 2 carat or over within the F/G VS1/VS2 range. If after some time I could not get that I would definitely prefer the colorless 1.80 to an H or I, it is just a more high class diamond.

Does high class or high spec diamond mean more to you than size. If they cost the same would a F VS1 2 carat Ideal cut be any
better to you than a I SI1 2 carat Ideal cut diamond? AND does any of it really matter in a little stone that is far smaller than the size of your hand - is money more important.
 
On second thoughts for that money I would want a 2 carat diamond so if I could not get an F VS1 I think I would wait longer and
save until I could.

I wouldn't go for lower clarity than VS2 with a high color as that qualities would not match, why go for high color if lower clarity in my
opinion.
 
Just read your sentence 'that don't really matter to most people'. I had thought you were sure you wanted higher specifications of diamond with your mention of F color.

If choosing what matters to most people, I would go with K/L colour SI1/SI2 diamond as many seem to be happy with that and lower color too in order to get larger size and especially in old cut styles..


REALLY SHOULD BE THE WEARER'S PERSONAL PREFERENCE AS ALL THESE THINGS ARE. It is like spending money on anything, a high spec high priced diamond or a medium spec priced diamond and a little holiday to take it to the same price, or a low priced diamond and a better holiday. Anything you can buy.

It also depends where most people live, in the UK most people would want to keep it under 75 points and go for D Flawless or K/L SI1/SI2, they mostly wouldn't want it to stand out too much and that kind of money they would want to spend on a house or just about
anything other than a diamond.

Most people in a diamond group want to spend it on a diamond but have different likes or different access to different amounts of money. Back in the early 2000's most people on this board went for DEFG VS1/VS2/SI1 and wanted to hit the 1 carat mark, then it changed and they all went for larger diamond in a J SI1, now it is 2 carat high spec or 3 or 4 carat old cut which has to be lower spec unless your mega rich.
 
teobdl|1389305714|3589771 said:
I've spoken with 3 well respected PS vendors who all say that color grading differences between GIA and AGS are practically negligible. In other words, the notion that GIA is stricter than AGS on color is false.
Click to expand...

I agree with your statement, I have read several times on this forum someone without any proof make statements to to effect GIA is stricter in color grading than AGSL. OK, I guess I would need proof. I think both labs are equal as far as Color and Clarity with AGSL having a much stricter cut grading.

Original question - as far as Color or Carat, my personal preference is a balance of that with a consideration of ones budget. I would try to get a color that is acceptable (for me that is G H I even some J) in a eye clean VS2 - SI1 in the largest carat my budget will buy.

I look for AGSL Ideal cuts in G H I J colors, with VS1 VS2 SI1 maybe SI2, but that is me.
 
Rhea|1389309901|3589803 said:
I assume j it's too tinted for you? This is an excellent buy if the color and clarity are suitable. http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-diamond/two-2-dot-3ct-each-j-vs2-bgd-super-ideal-diamonds.......... She also had an H, si2 but nothing inbetween.

I personally would have size over color but color doesn't bother me.
Click to expand...

+1

OP, how are you going to set this stone? Solitaires or settings that show the sides of a stone will look better with a whiter stone (since most color will be apparent from the sides and NOT face up). I have a 2.43 ct J/SI1 (totally eye clean) GIA XXX stone, and I have never had anyone notice any tint at all -- they only see the size and sparkle! Maybe I'm not as color sensitive as some, but but when I look at my stone, the last thing I see is "yellow." :))
aaa_1.jpg
Of course, mine is in a halo, so the face up view is pretty much all that is seen. That said, I don't think I would want any lower than an I for a solitaire.

To me, an H color is very white, regardless of setting, and anything higher than a G is just a waste... but that's just my opinion. :bigsmile: Have you seen an H color IRL? There have been a lot of people who have said that when shown DEFGHI stones without knowing their colors, they picked the lower colors because they actually preferred them to the more colorless stones. I think H is really white, but then again, I absolutely love my "low class diamond"! ;)) :lol:

I would look at a variety of colors with your FF if possible (I would do the "blind test" to know what she really sees and not what she thinks she's supposed to like)... this will tell you how color sensitive she is -- then find a nice balance of size vs color. Here's a thought... why not ask her what she would prefer, a larger H or a smaller F?
 
I know it costs more but in my mind, if I want a diamond I want it to have higher specs, to me that is what a diamond is, if I am going for a J SI2 to me it may as well be an amethyst or a more common stone as it is a more common priced item and there are more of them available or bought due to cost it seems.

What diamond does have is that a lot of its qualities are invisible to the naked eye.
 
Pyramid|1389312027|3589827 said:
I know if costs more but in my mind, if I want a diamond I want it to have higher specs, to me that is what a diamond is, if I am going for a J SI2 to me it may as well be an amethyst or a more common stone as it is a more common priced item and there are more of them available or bought due to cost it seems.
Click to expand...

A J stone may as well be an amethyst?? Really?! :|

Some (like me) may take a little offense to this, as I doubt most would consider a well-cut diamond to be the same as a semi-precious stone... I'm sorry, but that comment was a snobbish at best. There are a lot of PS members that have a lower color by choice... not because they "couldn't afford" a D/VVS stone, but because they either liked the color or wanted a much larger stone and were comfortable with the balance of color vs size. I understand that each person has his/her own preference, but the comment basically berated all those who own stones similar to this. ::)

OP, get what you are comfortable with... if it's a 0.95 ct D/VVS stone over a 2.3 ct I/SI stone, then so be it. However, don't feel like you're getting a "lesser/low class" stone if it's not the highest color and clarity. Get what you and your FF will be happiest with -- most want a nice balance of color and size... just decide what that means for you. :))
 
I know this is for an engagement ring but another thing to think about is this.

Unless you have a lot of money or potentially will have, will you want to buy other jewellery down the line in the same specs.

Would a more medium priced stone mean another larger ring later or if you blow the lot and go to a high color maybe above
your (not you but everyone) means diamond will you feel that you don't want to really spend much on jewellery anymore.

Suppose when getting engaged this is not a worry though :)
 
I know that comment does sound snobbish but it is not meant to be. I am not snobbish and not rich. It is just that I
feel or what I have taken in from society all my life is that diamonds are expensive for rich people i.e. kings, celebrities,
maybe because I am in the UK and they are smaller here like really smaller, a quarter carat is very common for engagement rings.

I do not want people to take offense, and I am sorry if I cause that, it is just my opinion or not opinion just really what i feel.

I don't feel they are like amethyst maybe as I know that is semi precious, but I don't have one in between really, I thought to say sapphire but then I thought well the sky is the limit with them too in larger sizes.


EDIT to add, think I am just trying to learn values from the beginning really, maybe I am missing out the level of cost in the middle between 2 carat D Flawless and Colored stones. Probably because we really have smaller stones over here. Not many people have a 2 carat J vs2 that I know of or even a 1 carat G VS2. Maybe I go from top ideal to nothing and miss out the rest for some reason unknown to me. I REALLY HAVE JUST THOUGHT I AM DOING THIS. I really hope I am not snobbish and don't know it.

I read another post today where someone was saying his main point in buying was value and he went for an Expert Selection diamond rather than A Cut Above and he said he thought people came here maybe and read what was the ideal and were then going to go for what was best, and he meant to say he had just realise or realised from what others had posted that value for money was really what was important to him.

I think I am stuck in the what is ideal mode somehow and think that has to be best when it is not. Maybe what I need to do is going to
a board that teaches economics rather than diamonds.


I wonder if some people who want the largest diamond then, not everyone of course, as people have all kinds of budgets and lifestyles, but wonder if they are stuck in something similar to me, not being snobbish but maybe think bigger is better as an ideal but not really going to be better for them when they get it. It is all food for thought. I am going to have to have a think to myself as I REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE A SNOB.


I suppose the ideal is really a 150 carat D Flawless or some exotic colored diamond that a country would have gifted a King though so I shouldn't worry about what is better or not and is it better or not because it is a certain spec in a LITTLE stone on a finger which is only a small part of our bodies.
 
I would choose carat over color. I think there had been surveys done by professional organization like rapaport and JCK that show that the general population prefers size over color.
 
pyramid said:
I know it costs more but in my mind, if I want a diamond I want it to have higher specs, to me that is what a diamond is, if I am going for a J SI2 to me it may as well be an amethyst or a more common stone as it is a more common priced item and there are more of them available or bought due to cost it seems.

What diamond does have is that a lot of its qualities are invisible to the naked eye.
Click to expand...

Well why pay money you can see for qualities you can't see?? :[
 
Elisateach|1389313817|3589856 said:
pyramid said:
I know it costs more but in my mind, if I want a diamond I want it to have higher specs, to me that is what a diamond is, if I am going for a J SI2 to me it may as well be an amethyst or a more common stone as it is a more common priced item and there are more of them available or bought due to cost it seems.

What diamond does have is that a lot of its qualities are invisible to the naked eye.
Click to expand...

Well why pay money you can see for qualities you can't see?? :[
Click to expand...


But then why not get a fake. Think I realise my mistake though with the amethyst, I realised that when I wrote it too but couldn't think what I wanted to put in instead, but think I have missed a whole subset of diamond out between what is a £90,000 stone and what is maybe a £1500.00 stone. I blame living in the UK. We don't see many diamonds in the jewellers certainly above maybe £5000.

I do know though that there is something there that is important to me, just me, in a diamond being higher spec whether I can see it or not, I do like seeing no color from the side but there is something there other than that and I think it is ingrained in me from marketing or some kind of talk I have heard all my life about diamonds, it did not come from my family as they had none to speak of. Maybe it was just them saying a diamond is expensive and so cost means better and more cost means higher quality diamond.
I don't know enough but marketing and ideals in high society does filter down to the lower classes somehow, which is me.

I don't want to be a snob and don't think I am but I don't want to ditch that type of diamond ideal either for some unknown reason.
 
FirstTimeBuyer128|1389299816|3589721 said:
Hi All,

I have picked out a 1.8 carat F VS1 for an engagement ring. Of course I am having second (or maybe third or fourth) thoughts. Would you rather have a 2.0 carat, but decrease the color to a H or I or keep what I have picked out?

If you had $30k budget for a diamond, which one out there would you buy?

Thanks for the input! :)
Click to expand...


I'd MUCH rather have a 2+ carat and go down to I or J color. Most women prioritize size over color or clarity. I'd be very disappointed to find out later that I could have had a bigger stone if my fiance had gone down in color.

But here's the thing: it doesn't matter what I want; it matters what your girlfriend would want. I would ask her, honestly.
 
Pyramid|1389312027|3589827 said:
I know it costs more but in my mind, if I want a diamond I want it to have higher specs, to me that is what a diamond is, if I am going for a J SI2 to me it may as well be an amethyst or a more common stone as it is a more common priced item and there are more of them available or bought due to cost it seems.

What diamond does have is that a lot of its qualities are invisible to the naked eye.
Click to expand...

And I would not be happy to have a D VS1. I would be so pissed to know I overpaid. I'd take a J SI2 any day! Different strokes and all that...
 
I am no expert, but with a budget of 30k, I'd personally would try to get the biggest D-G, VS1-VS2 eye clean, with faint-medium F. My eyes detect that extra brightness that a whiter colour gives a well cut stone. I think you should shop around for the best bang for your buck.

This stone is much better value than the one you bought, for the same price, and with excellent trade up policy.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3016695.htm

Another one for consideration, if you're happy with H colour.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2684389.htm

I think it's best to have a talk to your GF to see her priorities. 30k is a lot of money. Most women would love to have the joy of being given that budget to shop for a stone, that trumps the surprise factor for me :lol: .
 
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