Collecting rubies from all over the world?

[VividRed]

Hello PS’ers!

All of my threads are about rubies or red spinels so please accept my apologies I suppose I chose my nickname appropriately!

So, I’ve been looking for a red spinel and found out that what I want is either WAY too expensive so I decided go back to where my search for the elusive RED stone all started: ruby.

I bought R. Hughes book on Ruby and Sapphire. Wonderful read by the way and whoever is into corundum should in my opinion consider adding it to their bookshelf.

I am a collector by nature, have always been and I am thinking to embark in a journey that could last quite a few years - collect rubies from all over the world. From the most obvious Burmese to the recently-discovered-not-yet-available rubies from Greenland. So what are the major sources?

Burma (Mogok, Mong Hsu)
Thailand
Vietnam
Mozambique (Nissa, Montepuez)
Tanzania
Kenya
Madagascar
Sri Lanka
Afghanistan
Tajikistan
India
Malawi
Nepal
Pakistan
Greenland

Any other locations?

Each and every ruby will need to fulfill all of the following conditions:

- faceted stones only, no cabs or carvings
- unheated, untreated
- 2ct+ unless this size is ultra-rare for the location
- Vivid red color (plus secondary depending on location), no compromises here
- at least eye clean unless ultra rare for the location
- no funky cuts, no window, no fat belly
- typical color of the region (e.g. purplish/pinkish red if from Burma)
- will be certified by AGL/Lotus prior to purchase

It’s a lot to ask and I recon I will be an expensive collection, but I have the next 50 years so there is no rush whatsoever. My goal, as I see it today, is to capture the uniqueness of each location in what, to me, is the most beautiful CS out there

Any advice, thought, or brain fart is welcome.

 

[VividRed]

And of course please share your suggestions!!

 

[T L]

To be honest, I would save my pennies and buy the best Burma you can afford. There is a pricescoper
named Kenny who would buy fancy colored diamonds, of many varied but valuable colors. I think that collection had more overall intrinsic value because diamonds have many valuable colors.

Rubies are valued on color, as well as origin. The best color comes from Burma, so I think you would be selling yourself short to buy rubies from elsewhere if you can afford a fine Burmese stone.

As for red spinel, don’t give up on that. I think the right one will come along one day.

JMO

 

[lambskin]

What a collection you will amass. I am interested in your process. Are you going to go to many of the locals and by locally? What an adventure that would be. Estate sales, auction houses and other sellers will no doubt be included in your quest. I guess a collector of emeralds and diamonds could do the same thing as they are sourced from many places as well. IIRC, pearl collectors try to source fine specimens from all over the world. Good luck.

 

[voce]

Two things surface for me now:

1. Indian rubies to me are "rubies" but not RUBIES. This is because they are so pinkish and look more like pink sapphires to me. But, of course I am a color snob when it comes to red. Most vintage ruby rings do not pass my standards because they are just too purplish or pink, or heated (and if they're not certified, who knows if it's heat only or more invasively treated).

2. Countries of origin, to me, are different from PLACE of ORIGIN. I don't think vendors and/or labs always get this right. For example, the Kashmir region--India, Pakistan, Afghanistan? The Pamir mountains--Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan? Stones from the same mountain range get "branded" as one country or another based on which side of the mountain the miners come down on. I think the same is true of certain formations near the Kenya and Tanzania border. It's laughable to me that we would think of gemstones "originating" from artificial man-made boundaries of the entirely man-made concept of the nation-state rather than the geological formations they are actually created in. Am I the only one who thinks that the practice of referring to a gemstone's origin by country rather than by geological formation is arbitrary and silly?

I will say that in the past couple of months I've read a book called Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari, which convinced me that political ideologies, institutional religions, and the modern concepts about the nation-state are man-made constructs.

 

[VividRed]

@T L Only fine gems Burma included! I just need to find the funds!

@lambskin who knows? I would love to travel and find the stones directly close to the source but it might be difficult (wife and kids, can’t really drag them everywhere...can I?)

@voce Totally agree. Let’s say regions then, or localities. Time will tell!

 

[voce]

I will say that if you are looking for vivid red from India or Sri Lanka, you might as well give up, and unless they find a new site to mine in Tanzania, I don't think there are very many Tanzanian rubies that are still available as loose certified gems. I've been trying to find a fine Tanzanian twin to my e-ring ruby, and have yet to find a single one that was vivid red instead of vivid pink to my eye.

 

[T L]

@T L Only fine gems Burma included! I just need to find the funds!

@lambskin who knows? I would love to travel and find the stones directly close to the source but it might be difficult (wife and kids, can’t really drag them everywhere...can I?)

@voce Totally agree. Let’s say regions then, or localities. Time will tell!

Do you really think what’s fine for one mine/locale will be fine for another? You may find yourself disappointed when you compare gems. For example, I don’t think the finest Montana sapphire can be as fine as a fine Kashmir or Burma stone. Again, JMO. Sorry Montana sapphire lovers!!!

However, good luck!! It will take tons of patience to amass this collection.

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

I am with you in the love of vivid red. I am HOPING my next major purchase will be a gorgeous ruby or red spinel, but usually when I say that I find something else I simply can't pass up and have to start over.

I think your plan is quite the endeavor and I wish you luck and great enjoyment in the journey! I definitely see the wisdom in @T L advice due to the amount of funds needed to get a beautiful Burmese ruby. I actually have always favored the spinel over the ruby (mostly due to purplish stones) until that is, Bron post pictures of some of hers. I was absolutely blown away at how they have the inner glow. But I will continue sending out vibes to the universe that my gorgeous red spinel of size will find her way home to me too!

 

[Sungura]

I like this idea. I lived in Tanzania years ago. Over the past 4 years I have been trying to collect gems of every variety from each mine. In my case i am ok if the gems are small examples but they must be good color and clarity.

Small-but-mighty rubies from some of those locales might be easy to accumulate. I do love rubies and I have high quality, no-heat gems from Longido and Winza mines in Tanzania. I also have small examples from Kenya, Songea (Tanzania) and Madagascar.

Have fun!

 

[voce]

Posting pictures of my two rubies over the one carat mark that I consider fine. I think Mozambique can be a close contender for Burmese origin.


Mozambique vivid red, no modifiers that I can tell; the pink is phone or fluorescence.

Tanzanian vivid red, no modifiers that I can tell.

 

[arkieb1]

A person after my own heart being a "collector" too, you missed a couple of obvious ones, Australia for sapphires and rubies and the US for sapphires and rubies. Small but mighty, untreated "pigeons blood" pear ruby plus two tiny ones, from the Tiffany mine (which is now shut and on private land), NC, they are smaller, but all gem quality which I think is pretty rare from US mines;

 

[qubitasaurus]

I am not sure this will be what you want to hear but I am with TL. At some stage I wanted spinels from all the well known locations. I got a red spinel from Burma which is spectacular, afterwards I bought something described as a redish mahenge spinel. And I realized instantaneously that I don't like the colour pink (at the very lest I am picky about it in the extreme), my mahenge spinel was typical enough to be pink red. It seems obvious in retrospect but the qualities I was looking for in a spinel were not what mahenge spinels were cellebrated for. I end up comparing the two and this is just a recipee for disapointment.

I would save what you are planning to spend and look for a ruby which exemplifies what you like most in rubies.

 

[arkieb1]

I am not sure this will be what you want to hear but I am with TL. At some stage I wanted spinels from all the well known locations. I got a red spinel from Burma which is spectacular, afterwards I bought something described as a redish mahenge spinel. And I realized instantaneously that I don't like the colour pink (at the very lest I am picky about it in the extreme), my mahenge spinel was typical enough to be pink red. It seems obvious in retrospect but the qualities I was looking for in a spinel were not what mahenge spinels were cellebrated for. I end up comparing the two and this is just a recipee for disapointment.

I would save what you are planning to spend and look for a ruby which exemplifies what you like most in rubies.

I'm going to be the odd one out because I'm a collector too and agree and disagree. As an example, a well known and much loved Etsy vendor who is a lovely lady that sells Mahenge, I got one of her "best" pinks and sent it back because it was pretty ordinary to my eyes. I had another of her stones recut by Jerry Newman it lost 2/3rds of it weight so I could not send it back but it's a pretty stone, although not worth the price after the recut.... the red and the really hot pink Mahenge on the market today that is reasonably priced is pretty ordinary but if you get some of the good stuff or the original deposit it's amazing.

And therein likes the dilemma, finding "the good stuff"- it takes time, effort, a lot of patience, and a bucketload of money to collect nice stones from all over the world, so from that POV I understand what the others are arguing, that it might be better to just save the money and get the best stones you can from the best locations. On the flip side I like collecting according to location too, and it isn't impossible it's a matter of being very selective and being willing to wait for the right stones to come along at the right time, and as in my Mahenge recut example being able to roll with the misses along the way.

 

[T L]

I agree with @voce that some Mozambique rubies can rival Burma, just like some Madagascar sapphire can rival Kashmir or Burma, but once you start browsing “fine” material from other locations/mines, you may be sorely disappointed.

Also collecting requires tons of patience, and you already gave up on red spinel after just starting a few weeks ago. Amassing a collection is going to take years, maybe decades, especially on a limited budget. Fine rubies are very very rare and in demand, so I honestly do not think it’s attainable in the near future. Unfortunately, Mother Nature isn’t generous with instant gratification, even for the wealthy.

I don’t mean to offend, but I just wanted to offer my brutal honesty. Whatever you decide to do, good luck, and I hope the hunt ends up being satisfying even if it’s challenging.

 

[arkieb1]

Yes, I should add that I've been collecting gemstones and rocks for decades, as have most of the PSers here with nice collections, so it won't be a fast or easy process.

 

[qubitasaurus]

I'm going to be the odd one out because I'm a collector too and agree and disagree. As an example, a well known and much loved Etsy vendor who is a lovely lady that sells Mahenge, I got one of her "best" pinks and sent it back because it was pretty ordinary to my eyes. I had another of her stones recut by Jerry Newman it lost 2/3rds of it weight so I could not send it back but it's a pretty stone, although not worth the price after the recut.... the red and the really hot pink Mahenge on the market today that is reasonably priced is pretty ordinary but if you get some of the good stuff or the original deposit it's amazing.

And therein likes the dilemma, finding "the good stuff"- it takes time, effort, a lot of patience, and a bucketload of money to collect nice stones from all over the world, so from that POV I understand what the others are arguing, that it might be better to just save the money and get the best stones you can from the best locations. On the flip side I like collecting according to location too, and it isn't impossible it's a matter of being very selective and being willing to wait for the right stones to come along at the right time, and as in my Mahenge recut example being able to roll with the misses along the way.

Yes I originally thought the exact same thing. And I still do think that if I can get one of the original deposit stones that I may enjoy it for what it intrinsically is.

But having had a while to unpack my feelings I realized I had bought a mahenge which was described as red because I love red. I don't love pink. This won't surprise anyone who knows me (as I avidly avoid pink in all other purchases). If I could find a sufficiently fine spinel then I would love the fluorescence and neon colour in-spite of it being pink. This would be a holy grail stone for me. So I am sure I will continue hunting for this in spite of myself .

What I have is probably typical of what is available at the moment that is 'good quality' (I'll paste a pic to make this statement less nebulous -- sunlight and shopping center light as it shifts) but like you said I am still looking for more -- it just doesn't scratch the itch I can tell I am going to be extremely picky about this. I feel the opposite about the Burmese stone -- I love it 100% of the time.

Ofcourse I am not a collector though -- every day I wake up and think how much I would like to toss out half the stuff we own. We don't even own that much as we have shifted internationally a few times -- but I always think it would be better if we owned even less .

 

[arkieb1]

@qubitasaurus is that the Burmese stone that you love or the Mahenge?

 

[qubitasaurus]

@qubitasaurus is that the Burmese stone that you love or the Mahenge?

This is the mahenge spinel. The top photo is at its best though -- only looks that way in sunlight or sunlit room near the window. Seccond photo is more typical when it is inside light. I have no doubts that if I put it next to your jedi spinels it would wash out in comparison.

I thought some more about it. I love red stones, and my favourite modifiers in them are orange or pink. I think I got confused and bought a pink stone with a red modifier (I know I sound crazy but this is not the same thing as a red stone with a pink modifier. My mahenge is not original deposit material and while it is nice, it is pink with a red seccondary colour and deserves to be loved for being exactly what it is.). If that makes sense. It is a nice stone in its own right. But as you can see from the first photo it is unapologetically pink. Hahaha now I am feeling silly, it is super hard to explain. I just prefer red to pink.

 

[T L]

I prefer warm stones that have has little brown in them as possible. I have a hard time tolerating brown, but not so much gray, as in the presence of cool stones.

 

[arkieb1]

This is the mahenge spinel. The top photo is at its best though -- only looks that way in sunlight or sunlit room near the window. Seccond photo is more typical when it is inside light. I have no doubts that if I put it next to your jedi spinels it would wash out in comparison.

I thought some more about it. I love red stones, and my favourite modifiers in them are orange or pink. I think I got confused and bought a pink stone with a red modifier (I know I sound crazy but this is not the same thing as a red stone with a pink modifier. My mahenge is not original deposit material and while it is nice, it is pink with a red seccondary colour and deserves to be loved for being exactly what it is.). If that makes sense. It is a nice stone in its own right. But as you can see from the first photo it is unapologetically pink. Hahaha now I am feeling silly, it is super hard to explain. I just prefer red to pink.

That all makes perfect sense, in the second photo it 110% looks like a Mahenge the first photo, I wasn't sure. The newer mined Mahenge generally unless you pay big $$$$s does not seem as nice across the board as the original find. That's a nice pink Mahenge regardless. The Govt. there currently has closed the mines and stopped anyone taking Mahenge out of the country so hang onto it, it will still be worth a lot until they figure out who they are going to sell the mines too.

Apologies to the OP if this becomes a spinel thredjack.....Pink stones with red modifiers can be nice too, you just want ones that hold a magnificent colour inside as well as out;



The lab report for the big Oval Mahenge says "Reddish, Orange, Pink" it's fire engine red (yes I do see both pink and orange moving across different lighting situations) but it's a killer fire engine red all the time. The badly native cut small wonky Antique Burma Jedi cushion came back from Lotus as Red, Medium and Vivid. The bottom precision cut stone is the Mahenge recut I mentioned and Jerry's cutting makes that stone look 100 times better than it's actual colour, so cut can hide a world of blaaah....The Angel cut Jedi is Pink with a Red modifier but it pretty well mostly always looks bright red, the photo below same stone in the middle indoors and it looks hot pink (photo inside my house) you can see the air hockey bat is red the stones by comparison inside are hot pink;



I'm not sure origin matters, the trick is finding stones that hold their colour and don't show any browns and unwanted oranges and anything blaah across a range of lighting situations.

 

[VividRed]

I agree with @voce that some Mozambique rubies can rival Burma, just like some Madagascar sapphire can rival Kashmir or Burma, but once you start browsing “fine” material from other locations/mines, you may be sorely disappointed.

Also collecting requires tons of patience, and you already gave up on red spinel after just starting a few weeks ago. Amassing a collection is going to take years, maybe decades, especially on a limited budget. Fine rubies are very very rare and in demand, so I honestly do not think it’s attainable in the near future. Unfortunately, Mother Nature isn’t generous with instant gratification, even for the wealthy.

I don’t mean to offend, but I just wanted to offer my brutal honesty. Whatever you decide to do, good luck, and I hope the hunt ends up being satisfying even if it’s challenging.

No offense taken, quite the opposite - I am here to learn from you and other who have been into CS for years or decades

I suppose the spinel chapter was an attempt to acquire a cheaper red stone. What I really want though is ruby, there’s something about its history (most of which it ows to Spinel, funnily enough) and the way it “does” red that I just can’t resist. But if I ever find a perfect red spinel I will snatch it, no worries

Re quality, outside of Burma and Mozambique: I don’t want to have unreasonable expectations, and if a 2ct. eye clean Tajik ruby is nowhere to be found, I will settle for something smaller or more included. Same for all other locations where fine rubies are ultra rare or non existing.

This will indeed take years, perhaps decades. I’m 31 y.o. so time is not a problem yet (money might be, but time will play in my favor..)

 

[VividRed]

Posting pictures of my two rubies over the one carat mark that I consider fine. I think Mozambique can be a close contender for Burmese origin.


Mozambique vivid red, no modifiers that I can tell; the pink is phone or fluorescence.

Tanzanian vivid red, no modifiers that I can tell.

Voce, these are lovely rubies! IIRC the square Mozambican is the one you sent to AGL. Does it fluoresce? May I ask where you acquired them? Perhaps the vendor hs similar stones in his/her inventory?

Thank you!

 

[qubitasaurus]

That all makes perfect sense, in the second photo it 110% looks like a Mahenge the first photo, I wasn't sure. The newer mined Mahenge generally unless you pay big $$$$s does not seem as nice across the board as the original find. That's a nice pink Mahenge regardless. The Govt. there currently has closed the mines and stopped anyone taking Mahenge out of the country so hang onto it, it will still be worth a lot until they figure out who they are going to sell the mines too.

Apologies to the OP if this becomes a spinel thredjack.....Pink stones with red modifiers can be nice too, you just want ones that hold a magnificent colour inside as well as out;



The lab report for the big Oval Mahenge says "Reddish, Orange, Pink" it's fire engine red (yes I do see both pink and orange moving across different lighting situations) but it's a killer fire engine red all the time. The badly native cut small wonky Antique Burma Jedi cushion came back from Lotus as Red, Medium and Vivid. The bottom precision cut stone is the Mahenge recut I mentioned and Jerry's cutting makes that stone look 100 times better than it's actual colour, so cut can hide a world of blaaah....The Angel cut Jedi is Pink with a Red modifier but it pretty well mostly always looks bright red, the photo below same stone in the middle indoors and it looks hot pink (photo inside my house) you can see the air hockey bat is red the stones by comparison inside are hot pink;



I'm not sure origin matters, the trick is finding stones that hold their colour and don't show any browns and unwanted oranges and anything blaah across a range of lighting situations.

Yes I think you nailed it. I would love a fire engine red which almost looks fake (or as close as I can realistically get). What I bought was textbook mahenge material. It looks like the second photo a lot of the time (it can get lit up and glow, it can also shift peachy and slightly greyer depending on lighting). It is a lovely stone. But it wasn't what actually appeals to me. If I loved pink then I probably would be extactic about it though.

I think this brings me back to my origial point and maybe ceasing the digression -- I have learned I would rather buy what I love than collect what exemplifies certain material.

The photos are gorgeous though! So I can't sincerely appologise for derailing the thread -- I am secretly pleased at how amazing the eye candy is . If you are ever selling I will be standing (wriggling impatiently) in line!

 

[voce]

Voce, these are lovely rubies! IIRC the square Mozambican is the one you sent to AGL. Does it fluoresce? May I ask where you acquired them? Perhaps the vendor hs similar stones in his/her inventory?

Thank you!

Lovely as it was, I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't fluoresce. I know that there are Mozambican rubies that fluoresce more; the rare unicorn Mozambican ruby can fluoresce as much as Burmese. But, this cut and clarity--I had to get it--I was looking for a square cushion in particular because Bron's ruby was something she originally set aside for me that I would purchase then held back once she realized how much ruby value could change between top color and average. I had sketched a unique ring design specifically for a square cushion ruby, so it hit me very hard that I couldn't buy Bron's ruby (she wanted lab report and valuation but with no ETA of when those things will happen in sight)...Inken from Enhoerning Jewelry sourced me this ruby, and I'm definitely happy to have this one for my ring design, the first one I ever made. Sorry, I'm not planning to show that custom ring on PS for fear of copycats.

My ering was something I picked out as a finished ring from Natural Sapphire Company and was my first CS... It really was a superb value even at the time but I think it's doubtful that NSC generally has stuff like this. I suspect that the only reason it was "cheap" was because it was old stock.

Both are unheated, but I've only bothered to send the Mozambican one to an independent lab because I don't really think a lab report would make me love my ering more, and it is a finished piece of jewelry instead of a loose stone, so it would be a hassle to get everything graded. is the face I make just thinking about unmounting and resetting it.

 

[VividRed]

Lovely as it was, I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't fluoresce. I know that there are Mozambican rubies that fluoresce more; the rare unicorn Mozambican ruby can fluoresce as much as Burmese. But, this cut and clarity--I had to get it--I was looking for a square cushion in particular because Bron's ruby was something she originally set aside for me that I would purchase then held back once she realized how much ruby value could change between top color and average. I had sketched a unique ring design specifically for a square cushion ruby, so it hit me very hard that I couldn't buy Bron's ruby (she wanted lab report and valuation but with no ETA of when those things will happen in sight)...Inken from Enhoerning Jewelry sourced me this ruby, and I'm definitely happy to have this one for my ring design, the first one I ever made. Sorry, I'm not planning to show that custom ring on PS for fear of copycats.

My ering was something I picked out as a finished ring from Natural Sapphire Company and was my first CS... It really was a superb value even at the time but I think it's doubtful that NSC generally has stuff like this. I suspect that the only reason it was "cheap" was because it was old stock.

Both are unheated, but I've only bothered to send the Mozambican one to an independent lab because I don't really think a lab report would make me love my ering more, and it is a finished piece of jewelry instead of a loose stone, so it would be a hassle to get everything graded. is the face I make just thinking about unmounting and resetting it.

Thank you for the info Voce!

Do I read correctly that Bron is selling her mindblowing square Burmese ruby? Where do I have to sign?

 

[VividRed]

@Bron357 hello there! Do I understand correctly that @voce is talking about Dawn?

 

[voce]

@VividRed did you not read what I was saying? She's not ready to sell it because Dawn needs to go to a lab and needs an appraisal before selling. Dawn has been waiting since last July for those steps, and I'm by no means giving up on Dawn, either.

 

[VividRed]

@VividRed did you not read what I was saying? She's not ready to sell it because Dawn needs to go to a lab and needs an appraisal before selling. Dawn has been waiting since last July for those steps, and I'm by no means giving up on Dawn, either.

Sorry, it wasn’t clear to me that you are still planning on buying it. Nevermind then

 

[voce]

Sorry, it wasn’t clear to me that you are still planning on buying it. Nevermind then

I think the long delay without a specific date to the labs outside Australia means Bron is planning to keep her a while longer. I will probably put in an offer for Dawn, but I will let you know if I can't afford her. It's not certain what's going to happen to Dawn or how soon things will happen, but I knew I wanted to execute my ring design with or without Dawn, and this year before I get married is my last chance to spend irresponsibly on jewelry.