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Clouds and all that

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GolfGirl2008

GolfGirl2008

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
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95
Hello everyone! I am newly engaged (only a few weeks) and very happy.

I was the fortunate receipient of a 2+ carat gorgeous RB diamond ring. It''s just what I wanted. It''s stunning and I know my DF spent a small fortune on it. I know it is G, VVS2, Ex cut, Ex polish and the measurements come up as Ex in the HCA calculator. It''s a beauty!

Although I am not a diamond afficionado, I am a stickler for inclusions, I hate them hence why I think he spent the extra $$$ to get me a VVS!

Today however, I had the good fortune of looking at it for the first time with a loupe, a ideal-scope in fact, and the symmetry was gorgeous. However, much to my horror I saw a ghastly cloud (not sure this is the technical term) in the middle of the stone towards the point at the bottom. It''s rather large. This hadn''t been obvious to me before
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Unfortunately now, after taking a few seconds to locate it I can see it with my eye, even from a foot or more away. It''s milky white.

Does this mean my rock isn''t a VVS2? Or do I have crazy sharp eyes? Help! What should I do? Does it matter? I hate to think the DF got taken for a ride (he isn''t nearly as picky as I am and wouldn''t probably have looked at it in a loupe before buying).

*cries*
 
Welcome to Pricescope!

First rule, YOU MUST POST PICS!!
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You shouldn''t be able to see anything with a VVS stone.

First off~ Is your diamond clean? A dirty diamond will show all sorts of hazardous material!! It could have soap, lotion, hairspray, etc stuck to it. Give it a good cleaning and look again. If it''s still there:

Second question is "who rated it?" (are you sure that''s the actual clarity of your stone?) Next question is "does it have flourescence?" (sometimes flourescence will show a milkiness to the stone.)

Let us know.

and post pics soon!!
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Thank you for replying and thank you for the welcome to Pricescope. This place is a bounty of knowledge and I appreciate it!

I will certainly post pics. It's beautiful and worth admiring :) I am expecting/hoping for a camera as a gift shortly so will load pics up once I can.

I cleaned it this evening with some soap, warm water and a toothbrush thinking the milky cloud *must be* dirt. But the smudge is still there, glaring at me. In addition, we had it sized last week so it likely should have been cleaned at that time.

It was bought at Tiffanys therefore was graded by them. According to the specifications, it has faint fluorescence.

Why must I be such a stickler for details? I should have left well-enough alone! Ignorance is bliss (or maybe it isn't but sometimes it sure feels stressful being a perfectionist).
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Golfgirl, can you see it from the TOP of the stone? Clarity is graded from the top (PSers can correct me if I am wrong). Inclusions can more readily be seen from the pavillion side.
 
Yes I see it from the top only. From the side the stone is clear as can be. I am going to see if I can take a photo, maybe even with the ideal-scope in the next few days, if my friend will loan their ideal-scope to me. *sighs*
 
It''s more the location than anything else making me think this, but could it be girdle reflection? Or, alternately, a reflection off of the setting itself? I scared myself silly staring into my ring the first week I had it, thinking it had some kind of a milky inclusion in it on the side before I realized that the stone was simply picking up on the gleam of the platinum .... it seems unlikely that a VVS stone would have an inclusion that would be visible from a foot away unless you are *quite* eagle-eyed.
 
Thank you all for your posts. I will get to the bottom of this. I honestly just feel a little queasy about the whole thing. Here are some pics my DF had from before the sizing. Obviously you cannot see any inclusions here but the cloud is just at the base of the arrows toward the center. I will try and get a pic taken with the ideal scope soon.

RingArrows.jpg
 
Ditto to what everyone has said. I would think if there is a cloud that you can see a foot away; you would be able to see it from the side as well. I would think it''s a reflection or a smudge.
 
Date: 11/21/2007 12:10:33 AM
Author: GolfGirl2008
It was bought at Tiffanys therefore was graded by them.
Click to expand...
Make an appointment with the gemologist there to sit down with you as long you''d like and explain with the microscope what you''re seeing. That''s one very significant benefit of buying from a local shop, so take advantage of it.
 
I''m sorry, but you have a 2 carat Tiffany ring? And have yet to supply atleast 10 pictures? Sooo wrong....
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Could it be possible that what you are seeing is not a cloud but something snagged on the prong or stuck underneath one? You''d be amazed at the number of posts I''ve read here on PS since going years ago, that what was thought to be something on or in the diamond, actually ended up being something in/under a prong or the setting itself.

If it is indeed a cloud that is that visable, you may want to take it back to Tiff''s and question them about it. Another option is to embrace the cloud and look at it as your stone''s birthmark, and you will forever be able to identify your stone after each cleaning, tightening of prongs, etc. I know some PSer''s actually prefer to know exactly where they''re stone''s "birthmarks" are, so they can easily and immediately identify their diamond.
 
So, I took annother look at my baby with my friends loupe and ideal-scope.

It turns out the cloud I am talking about is actually a dusty grey color and is a donut shape. Infact, there are two donuts in there, but I assume one is a reflection. There is also a black line visible next to the donut. I can see the donut as a smudge by eye but I cannot see the black line. Unless you have a super sharp eye like mine, I think you wouldn''t see either by eye.

Even so, I honestly think this is unacceptable for a VVS2 Tiffany stone. I decided I will go into the store and request to see other VVS2s. I am sad.
 
Perhaps you're seeing table reflection.

RingArrows.jpg


Table reflection is literally the reflection of the table seen in the pavilion of the diamond in some lighting conditions. Diamond cutters have used this phenomenon since before scanners existed to judge pavilion depth.

The table reflection gets larger as

(1) table size increases
(2) pavilion angle increases

Optical asymmetry ‘bloats’ the appearance of this table reflection. The diamond simulations in the graphics below assume perfect optical symmetry. Commercially cut stones with poor optical symmetry show larger, uneven reflections.

Examples for illustration:

Top row: Larger table % results in larger reflection
Bottom row: Steeper pavilion angle results in larger reflection

table-reflection-ps.jpg
 
So, just to reiterate the facts, this was graded as a VVS2, 2.31 carat RB, G color. It sparkles like all hell and is really spectacular. I however, am a stickler for inclusions and want to make sure we got what we (over)paid for
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Thank you for the information John. My table is a bit big though still considered an ideal cut apparently so who knows ... I had some great lighting this afternoon and access to a friends camer so take a look at these pics and let me know what you think. I am pretty sure this is just a regular old inclusion (I was only able to capture the donut not the black line which is not visible without a loupe).

These photos really do pain me to post as I love my ring and love the lengths my fiance went to get it for me.

You can clearly see the two donuts near the culet, I think the bottom one is the real one, the top one is reflection. I am sitting here with the ring on my hand a foot away from my face and I can clearly see these marks. Hardly a VVS2?!?!

croppeddonuts.JPG
 
Another notice the donuts. It sure is pretty though, even with those darned donuts.

croppeddonuts2.JPG
 
Last one.

croppeddonuts3.JPG
 
I’m being confused by your term ‘donut’ but correctly graded VVS diamonds do not have ‘ghastly clouds’ in them. Heck, correctly graded VS2’s wouldn’t be described that way.

My guess is that you’ve got a small piece of something stuck to the back of the stone that’s reflecting from one side to the other. Give it a good cleaning or pay a visit to the store and have them do it for you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 11/23/2007 3:21:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
I’m being confused by your term ‘donut’ but correctly graded VVS diamonds do not have ‘ghastly clouds’ in them. Heck, correctly graded VS2’s wouldn’t be described that way.

My guess is that you’ve got a small piece of something stuck to the back of the stone that’s reflecting from one side to the other. Give it a good cleaning or pay a visit to the store and have them do it for you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
Sorry about my novice terminology! All I meant by that is that the apparent inclusion appears as a donut or a "tire" ... aka: a grey cloud with a space in the middle. It and the reflection are clearly seen in my three pics above. The stone was cleaned last week when I had it sized so sadly I don''t think that''s the problem. In any case, I will keep you all posted once I get into the the store. Thank you for all the extremely helpful comments.
 
This cropped pic of the culet might help. Unfortunately I don''t have Photoshop on this computer so I cannot annotate.

donuts.JPG
 
Are you talking about the thing the arrow is pointing to?

ETA, I see you posted a cropped pic, so I think it is the same thing we are referring to...

croppeddonuts123.jpg
 
I''m looking at the pictures, and I''m not seeing an inclusion ...what I *think* you''re referring to looks like an open culet to me, though it seems to match John''s images of table reflection even more closely than that. It might be a cut issue rather than a clarity issue ... either way, insofar as I''m aware, Tiffany will exchange stones within a given period (I could be wrong here, but I''m pretty sure I remember a previous poster doing this - try searching "Tiffany''s" + "exchange", maybe?). If this really bothers you,perhaps that''s something that you and your fiance might explore? Alternately, since we''re shooting blind here, perhaps you should take it to a qualified appraiser to see what they have to say about it?
 
Well Neil, that''s not fair...your arrow is bigger than mine!
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Thank you everyone.
Traveling gal's arrow is pointing to the "donut". It's reflection is just above it to the left (or what I am hoping is a reflection).
What is an open culet? The culet is listed as zero in my specs. (isn't this more desirable?)
I will go back to Tiffanys. It just really is going to stress my fiance out so I need to gather all information before approaching the subject.
 
Date: 11/23/2007 3:47:14 PM
Author: GolfGirl2008
Thank you everyone.
Traveling gal''s arrow is pointing to the ''donut''. It''s reflection is just above it to the left (or what I am hoping is a reflection).
What is an open culet? The culet is listed as zero in my specs. (isn''t this more desirable?)
I will go back to Tiffanys. It just really is going to stress my fiance out so I need to gather all information before approaching the subject.
Click to expand...
I don''t think you have an open culet, so that''s not it.

I can''t even find inclusions on an SI1 earring I have, so I am not the right person to ask. But I do see that donut...I just don''t know what it is.
 
Date: 11/23/2007 3:31:57 PM
Author: GolfGirl2008

Sorry about my novice terminology! All I meant by that is that the apparent inclusion appears as a donut or a 'tire' ... aka: a grey cloud with a space in the middle. It and the reflection are clearly seen in my three pics above. The stone was cleaned last week when I had it sized so sadly I don't think that's the problem. In any case, I will keep you all posted once I get into the the store. Thank you for all the extremely helpful comments.
Click to expand...
GG - I can only see the photos but what I'm seeing is table reflection dynamics. I thought there may be something on the pavilion, but the dark areas get larger as the camera gets closer which is a logical result of obstruction (light blockage) not detritus. Is the table size near 60%, and do you know pavilion depth or angle?

T&Co is very reputable. I suggest you take it back, tell them your concerns and ask them to explain it to you. Their locations often have a gemologist available. From what you've posted and described I think what you're seeing has to do with cut not clarity (of course our opinions here are limited to 2D photography).
 
Date: 11/23/2007 3:51:19 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

GG - I can only see the photos but what I'm seeing is table reflection dynamics. I thought there may be something on the pavilion, but the dark areas get larger as the camera gets closer which is a logical result of obstruction (light blockage) not detritus. Is the table size near 60%, and do you know pavilion depth or angle?

T&Co is very reputable. I suggest you take it back, tell them your concerns and ask them to explain it to you. Their locations often have a gemologist available. From what you've posted and described I think what you're seeing has to do with cut not clarity (of course our opinions here are limited to 2D photography).
Click to expand...
To me, my inexperienced eye (though I am a microscopist so have mad attention to detail), it really looks like a floating inclusion not a reflection. But I know the mind can play tricks.

Table percentage is 60%
Pavillion depth % is 43.5%

It is listed as excellent cut precision and symmetry. And the measurements come out as Excellent in the HCA

Did we unknowingly get sold a "dud"?
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Date: 11/23/2007 4:02:09 PM
Author: GolfGirl2008

To me, my inexperienced eye (though I am a microscopist so have mad attention to detail), it really looks like a floating inclusion not a reflection. But I know the mind can play tricks.

Table percentage is 60%
Pavillion depth % is 43.5%

It is listed as excellent cut precision and symmetry. And the measurements come out as Excellent in the HCA

Did we unknowingly get sold a ''dud''?
7.gif
Click to expand...
Dud? No. All rounds have this feature to some extent... Your table/pavilion angle combination is just at a threshold where it begins to become more apparent. You can also see it in a large stone more readily than in smaller sizes. Yes, the reflection will appear to ''float'' but it should not be noticeable in all lighting conditions. It''s seen primarily in diffused lighting and when the stone is lit from the sides more strongly than from above.

I did a simulation with your table/PA measurements below, skewing the optical symmetry slightly. You can see the resemblance - and how the visiblilty is different in different lighting models. These are only simulations, meant to help understand the phenomenon: What you see in the real diamond with your eyes in 3D is what''s most important.

I would ask; have you looked at it through a broad range of lighting? How do you like it in natural daylight, under spotlighting, in candlelight, etc? Also - since we tend to obsess pretty hard at the beginning of ownership - how many other people have pointed this out to you unasked? (few or none?
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)

What is most important is for you to love the stone. If it''s something that you think is going to drive you crazy just make your man, and T&Co, aware of it. I imagine they both want to see you happy more than anything else.

gg-table-reflection.jpg
 
Thank you for your experience, time and efforts in educating me. I sincerely appreciate it.

Not to beat a dead horse or anything (though I know I am) but do you see the specific donut black shape in the center of the stone marked by this arrow? Is this (and it''s reflection in the facet opposite to it in the culet) precisely what you think could be caused by a big table and the angles my stone have? Not the other shadows around the arrows but rather the dusty blob in the middle?

With this information I now feel empowered enough to approach the gemologist and go through explanations.
Thank you again, everyone!

croppeddonuts123[1].jpg
 
It could be some residual polishing compound or dirt leftover from when you had it resized? Have them clean it again when you take it in.
 
You're very welcome GG. It's what we do 'round here.

Without having the ring here in 3D all I can do is take a stab... Looking at the photo, that tiny circle looks like a water spot or residue on the diamond's pavilion ... or a crystal (unlikely in a VVS stone). Perhaps it will disappear if you clean the diamond again? If not, it's an inclusion that's reflecting. A diamond is a bunch of dynamic mirrors and the prongs, the head of the diamond, the shank, your camera, the position of your body, the way light reflects from the blue box underneath, the setting, etc. can all cause different things you see in it. That's why one would really need to have it in-hand to be able to tell you decisively.

If you don't mind a suggestion, print these photos with the arrows to take to the rep - for ease of communication.

Also, you didn't answer about how the diamond looks in other lighting conditions. Are you obsessing?
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