Citrine: Where to find a nicely cut stone

[MoonWater]

Don''t beat me up guys if this has been covered a million times before. I did a search and just found too many threads with people that already had their stones...

I would prefer Jeff White because his stones always look so gorgeous, but I see nothing available on the site. Do you think it would be best if I just email him?

Cut wise, I''m thinking either an asscher (I just saw a gorgeous one on here), a cushion, or emerald.

I''m trying to create a pendant with 18k gold to have ready by Xmas.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[Proteus]

Just my two cents: you might not want to have a citrine in an Asscher cut... Citrine has a pretty low refractive index, and in my experience, Asschers look best in stones with higher refraction (it is a diamond cut after all.) It will probably have windowing issues in citrine/quartz, or anything with a refractive index under about 1.65 for that matter. You''d likely get better brilliance out of a cushion cut.

But that''s my opinion, and I''m a fussy cutter...

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 8/7/2008 1:19:45 PM
Author: Proteus
Just my two cents: you might not want to have a citrine in an Asscher cut... Citrine has a pretty low refractive index, and in my experience, Asschers look best in stones with higher refraction (it is a diamond cut after all.) It will probably have windowing issues in citrine/quartz, or anything with a refractive index under about 1.65 for that matter. You''d likely get better brilliance out of a cushion cut.

But that''s my opinion, and I''m a fussy cutter...

Normally I would agree, but I have seen some great asscher cut citrines, one on this site, actually. I think it''s a hit or miss though, because I have seen some bad ones in the past, too. EC''s as well.

I''d suggest emailing Jeff to see what he thinks! He may have a perfect stone.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/7/2008 11:13:44 AM
Author:MoonWater
Don''t beat me up guys if this has been covered a million times before. I did a search and just found too many threads with people that already had their stones...

I would prefer Jeff White because his stones always look so gorgeous, but I see nothing available on the site. Do you think it would be best if I just email him?

Cut wise, I''m thinking either an asscher (I just saw a gorgeous one on here), a cushion, or emerald.

I''m trying to create a pendant with 18k gold to have ready by Xmas.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

You NEVER know what Jeff White has available

He doesn''t update his website everytime he gets some rough in...so best bet is to e-mail him and find out both what he has, and, what he can get.

Tell him I said Hi!

LS

 

[Proteus]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like they would all be terrible. An Asscher citrine actually can look pretty good face-up... but the high critical angle of quartz will cause it to always window out a little when you tilt it. As long as you don't mind it, there's no problem. If it's done by a good American cutter, it will still be better than most native/commercial cut material. Asschers certainly aren't all bad, the cut just tends to run close to quartz's critical angle. They are better suited for higher RI gems, but they can definitely work in a lower RI gem.

 

[FrekeChild]

You might check with Dan Stair too. His Barion cut is pretty amazing. Checky the cut on my amethyst from him: link (I posted the second page because the better pics are over there.

)

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/7/2008 1:21:33 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 8/7/2008 1:19:45 PM

Author: Proteus

Just my two cents: you might not want to have a citrine in an Asscher cut... Citrine has a pretty low refractive index, and in my experience, Asschers look best in stones with higher refraction (it is a diamond cut after all.) It will probably have windowing issues in citrine/quartz, or anything with a refractive index under about 1.65 for that matter. You''d likely get better brilliance out of a cushion cut.


But that''s my opinion, and I''m a fussy cutter...

Normally I would agree, but I have seen some great asscher cut citrines, one on this site, actually. I think it''s a hit or miss though, because I have seen some bad ones in the past, too. EC''s as well.


I''d suggest emailing Jeff to see what he thinks! He may have a perfect stone.

You probably saw the same asscher I saw. It was gorgeous! I really should email Jeff. I wrote to WF because I want them to set it but they asked if I would get the citrine from them. I didn''t really think about it. If they can get me something as gorgeous as Jeff White it would be easier (no shipping back and forth). What do you guys think?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/7/2008 1:46:40 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 8/7/2008 11:13:44 AM

Author:MoonWater

Don't beat me up guys if this has been covered a million times before. I did a search and just found too many threads with people that already had their stones...


I would prefer Jeff White because his stones always look so gorgeous, but I see nothing available on the site. Do you think it would be best if I just email him?


Cut wise, I'm thinking either an asscher (I just saw a gorgeous one on here), a cushion, or emerald.


I'm trying to create a pendant with 18k gold to have ready by Xmas.


Any suggestions?


Thanks!

You NEVER know what Jeff White has available

He needs to higher a webmaster and get on those updates! I'm constantly checking his site and hitting refresh! lol I will email him.

He doesn't update his website everytime he gets some rough in...so best bet is to e-mail him and find out both what he has, and, what he can get.


Tell him I said Hi!


LS

Weird, I responded and yet my reply didn't show up. Anyhoo I said he needs to get a webmaster to update his site more often! I'm always looking at the same SOLD items over and over drooling. I'll send him an email. I just saw a pastel Green Tourmaline that made me drool. I would consider that as well, the cut was just...wow.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/7/2008 2:41:53 PM
Author: Proteus
Sorry, I didn''t mean to sound like they would all be terrible. An Asscher citrine actually can look pretty good face-up... but the high critical angle of quartz will cause it to always window out a little when you tilt it. As long as you don''t mind it, there''s no problem. If it''s done by a good American cutter, it will still be better than most native/commercial cut material. Asschers certainly aren''t all bad, the cut just tends to run close to quartz''s critical angle. They are better suited for higher RI gems, but they can definitely work in a lower RI gem.

Thanks for the info! What about an Emerald cut? Do you think it would have the same problem?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/7/2008 3:11:43 PM
Author: FrekeChild
You might check with Dan Stair too. His Barion cut is pretty amazing. Checky the cut on my amethyst from him: link (I posted the second page because the better pics are over there.

)

So many pretty stones! Unfortunately no citrine

Btw, I''m looking for a nice golden yellow color. Much like that asscher I saw

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:17:16 PM
Author: MoonWater


Weird, I responded and yet my reply didn''t show up. Anyhoo I said he needs to get a webmaster to update his site more often! I''m always looking at the same SOLD items over and over drooling. I''ll send him an email. I just saw a pastel Green Tourmaline that made me drool. I would consider that as well, the cut was just...wow.

I guess he could be constantly updating the website but never finding time to cut the rock!

He''s a one-man operation, does it all.....He posts on his Gemscoop page when he gets 5 or 6 pieces. But he''s always got lots of rough hanging around...probably depends on what you''re looking for.

But from my experience, his work is worth the wait if he has to source rough for your stone.

LS

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:31:11 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 8/7/2008 9:17:16 PM

Author: MoonWater

Weird, I responded and yet my reply didn''t show up. Anyhoo I said he needs to get a webmaster to update his site more often! I''m always looking at the same SOLD items over and over drooling. I''ll send him an email. I just saw a pastel Green Tourmaline that made me drool. I would consider that as well, the cut was just...wow.

I guess he could be constantly updating the website but never finding time to cut the rock!

He''s a one-man operation, does it all.....He posts on his Gemscoop page when he gets 5 or 6 pieces. But he''s always got lots of rough hanging around...probably depends on what you''re looking for.


But from my experience, his work is worth the wait if he has to source rough for your stone.


LS

I should totally offer to help him keep his website updated! Heck I''d do it for FREE just to be special with Jeff White! Lol.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:40:56 PM
Author: MonkeyPie


I should totally offer to help him keep his website updated! Heck I''d do it for FREE just to be special with Jeff White! Lol.

tee hee hee

LS

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:40:56 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 8/7/2008 9:31:11 PM

Author: LostSapphire

Date: 8/7/2008 9:17:16 PM


Author: MoonWater


Weird, I responded and yet my reply didn''t show up. Anyhoo I said he needs to get a webmaster to update his site more often! I''m always looking at the same SOLD items over and over drooling. I''ll send him an email. I just saw a pastel Green Tourmaline that made me drool. I would consider that as well, the cut was just...wow.

I guess he could be constantly updating the website but never finding time to cut the rock!

He''s a one-man operation, does it all.....He posts on his Gemscoop page when he gets 5 or 6 pieces. But he''s always got lots of rough hanging around...probably depends on what you''re looking for.



But from my experience, his work is worth the wait if he has to source rough for your stone.



LS

I should totally offer to help him keep his website updated! Heck I''d do it for FREE just to be special with Jeff White! Lol.

Haha, yeah do it. I think we''d all appreciate it.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I think I will, actually. That would be a fun thing to do anyway, and I''m sure updating the website is the most tedious part of his job, otherwise he would do it more.

 

[MoonWater]

Yeah, web stuff can be tedious. I taught myself HTML years ago and then took a computer programming course. It''s not bad though, but when you update there isn''t any creativity...which actually makes the job easier but less fun. I think he''d really appreciate it (not that I know the guy lol)

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:52:48 PM
Author: MoonWater
Yeah, web stuff can be tedious. I taught myself HTML years ago and then took a computer programming course. It''s not bad though, but when you update there isn''t any creativity...which actually makes the job easier but less fun. I think he''d really appreciate it (not that I know the guy lol)

I agree. I used to have my own domain name and played with HTML and graphics constantly. I was never great with scripting, but I don''t think he uses much of that, just by looking at his code right now. I am totally going to offer when he gets in touch with me about my asscher.

 

[MoonWater]

Haha, I use to look at people''s code all the time! That''s how I learned a lot of stuff.

It''s so cool that you''re offering. I hope it works out.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:58:42 PM
Author: MoonWater
Haha, I use to look at people''s code all the time! That''s how I learned a lot of stuff.


It''s so cool that you''re offering. I hope it works out.

That''s how I learned, too! I found websites I really liked and took bits and pieces of their code to play with until I figured out what did what. I still do that sometimes, but now all my favorite sites are in flash. Sadly, I have no idea how it works heh. I wish I did! I actually took a couple classes to do coding for a living but, it''s way harder in a classroom setting where I had to do it "by the book" instead of my cobbled-together way. Oh well.

Eeee looking at Jeff''s site is killing me. I want my asscher!

 

[FrekeChild]

Dan hasn''t dropped anything in over a month. And he''s terrible about updating his site-minus the currently cutting part. I bought my amethyst like a month ago, and it''s still not marked as sold. If you''re interested in seeing if he has anything you might be interested in, I''d email him. Or any rough that might fit what you''re looking for. He''s a super nice guy.

 

[Proteus]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:18:06 PM
Author: MoonWater

Thanks for the info! What about an Emerald cut? Do you think it would have the same problem?

Yeah, an emerald cut will have the same "hit or miss" kind of problem with optics. I''ve seen a few decent emerald cut quartz stones, but speaking from experience, I always find the windowing/extinction levels to be more or less an issue for me with those cuts.

I find that checkerboard cuts can help a bit with the windowing issue for lower-RI gems. Brilliant or Portuguese style cuts (without excess bulging) can be decent too, but the proportions and symmetry have to be really good. Lower RI gems like quartz, beryl, iolite, etc. have a narrower range of angles that refraction can take place, so they have to be cut pretty carefully to achieve a decent amount of brilliance at all. I find that with all the angled steps in an Asscher or emerald cut, the high and low ends of those step angles will invariably fall outside that narrow range, and cause either extinction or a window. It''s just raw physics... it''s unavoidable. I''ve run a mind-bending number of refractory simulations during diamond cut grade research (and in my own personal research as a cutter with many different optical materials) and this is the result that I have come to.

But again, I''m an obsessive cutter... if the stone looks great to you, that''s all that matters!

 

[Richard M.]

Tony,

I''ve been experimenting lately with a number of round brilliant patterns for quartz. Several show great face-up brilliance but all tilt-window quite easily, an inherent problem with low RI stones. I have a low RI cutting pattern for the Asscher I''ll happily share with you if you want to play with it.

As a general observation, the emerald cut was developed to display color, not brilliance. It takes advantage of the shape of beryl and tourmaline crystals which are mostly appreciated for their color, not brilliance. The Asscher of course was specifically designed for diamonds. A lower level of optical performance can be expected in other materials, as you say.

Richard M.

 

[geckodani]

Date: 8/7/2008 9:43:59 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 8/7/2008 9:40:56 PM
Author: MonkeyPie


I should totally offer to help him keep his website updated! Heck I''d do it for FREE just to be special with Jeff White! Lol.

tee hee hee

LS

You should totally go for it.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 8/8/2008 4:38:08 PM
Author: Richard M.
Tony,


I''ve been experimenting lately with a number of round brilliant patterns for quartz. Several show great face-up brilliance but all tilt-window quite easily, an inherent problem with low RI stones. I have a low RI cutting pattern for the Asscher I''ll happily share with you if you want to play with it.


As a general observation, the emerald cut was developed to display color, not brilliance. It takes advantage of the shape of beryl and tourmaline crystals which are mostly appreciated for their color, not brilliance. The Asscher of course was specifically designed for diamonds. A lower level of optical performance can be expected in other materials, as you say.


Richard M.

So an emerald cut would be ok? I know nothing about gems so if you guys can recommend the best cut for beauty (I would lean toward color display more than anything) I would very much appreciate it.

 

[chrono]

I have an asscher cut citrine and the colour display is quite good. No windowing.

 

[Proteus]

Date: 8/9/2008 1:33:58 PM
Author: Chrono
I have an asscher cut citrine and the colour display is quite good. No windowing.

Chrono, do you have a picture of it? It would be nice to see. I bet it would help MoonWater out to have some images for reference. Generally the problem I run into, is that the small facets around the culet point will window out easily - but it may, of course, be modified to correct the problem. I''m speaking of a "true" Asscher cut, which has 5 steps on the pavilion and 3 on the crown. With that many steps, the angles will cover a pretty large range, and will cause some windowing or extinction in quartz. If it has 3 or 4 pavilion steps, it will probably look better. Any square step cut stone will often be called an Asscher, but technically, it should have 5 pavilion steps and 3 on the crown. If it has less steps, it should probably be referred to as a square emerald cut, but I''m sure that''s up to debate.

Richard - I''ve fiddled with quartz rounds too, and I''ve come to the same conclusion.. you can get a good, bright pop on the face up position, but they window out on even a slight tilt. It''s hard to escape the refractive limitations. Quartz is always going to behave like quartz (although sometimes I wish it wouldn''t.)

That''s a good point about emerald cuts - since emeralds are typically so flawed, people just wanted to show off a big block of vivid green and save weight, the yield is high from beryl (and tourmaline) crystals. They can also serve the purpose of avoiding the dreaded closed C axis on tourmaline -- the straight step cuts are parallel to the a/b axis, they won''t mix the C-axis darkness like other cuts would.
Sure, I wouldn''t mind seeing the low-RI Asscher design. I''ve tweaked a 5-step Asscher to work in Quartz, but the range of angles is the killer. I haven''t gotten around to making a 3 or 4 step variant yet... I suspect it would help significantly. I can run some optical simulations on it if you like. I might be able to fine-tune it even more, if possible.

 

[Richard M.]

Tony,

Here''s the design for RI 1.580. It''s definitely a Royal Asscher with a 5-step pav and 3-step crown. I have a ''trine (not quite ametrine) on the dop right now but my machine/lap combo may not be accurate enough to cut it. The design''s a bit odd because it calls for different angles on the corners vs. the sides of the same step.

I''m sure in was tangent-ratioed in GemCad but don''t know who did it. Let us know how you make out with it. Any comments/improvements you can offer would be good.

Richard M.

 

[Proteus]

The results are in.

As you may have noticed, there''s a pretty serious flaw with the low-RI Asscher pattern: the table is huge. Other than that, the pavilion is pretty decent. Here''s a photo to show it, unmodified, in face-up and tilted (note the enormous window on tilt.)
Next post will show the modified version.

 

[Proteus]

Here is the version I've modified to fix the table issue, and tweak the angles slightly. The face-up brightness appears slightly lower than the original, because the table is smaller. I believe it is actually just more focused towards the center of the gem, so it's still quite bright. The tilt view, as you can see, is much improved. I reduced the table size to about 50%. I can post the modified version, if you like.

 

[Proteus]

Just for fun, here is a rendering of an Asscher cut diamond to compare with the citrine.
It''s hard to argue with that kind of refraction.