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Choosing between 2 diamonds, & Opinions on Clean Origin

Trl6347

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
7
F329C6EA-7CDB-4368-B94B-11DF7F676B94.jpeg 770F079A-368B-4B62-9885-620333662DC5.jpeg 2536D591-FD15-41C1-AEC7-43D9F119AA26.jpeg Need help choosing between 2 diamonds I’m looking at. I’ve picked out a setting on clean origin (Braided Halo) and just wanted to get opinions on which diamond seems to be the best and if anyone has dealt with clean origin before? Also, I’m open to considering other loose lab diamonds if anyone has suggestions they recommend. Working with a budget of about 5k. Thanks for any advice!
 

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lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,488
Use "report concern" to move this to the lab created section (man-made diamonds). Unfortunately we aren't allowed to discuss lab stones here.
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,364
You can use the HCA tool from the "tools" dropdown to evaluate the cut. The 1.01 scored a 1.9, which means it passed.

We don't have the angles of the 1.07 but given that it is a whopping 6.6+ mm across I'm guessing something funky is going on, because at that carat weight if the cut was ideal it wouldn't be so large. I'm guessing it has a large flat top, which means you'd be sacrificing light performance for face-up size.
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
8,814
I would get an HPHT lab diamond before the CVD which is grown in layers. Also understand that you will have no resale value and there is likely no upgrade policy.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
8,814
I also don’t like the 33.5 crown angle with the 41.1 Pavillion.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,082
While the HCA may give the 1.01 a passing score, I'd want to investigate it further. If you aren't aware, there are 8 crown and 8 pavilion angles on a round diamond. When you look at a lab report, only ONE value is provided which means each respective angle is rounded & averaged. The problem arises in the fact that at 41.2 pavilion wonky things can and do happen. It's very difficult to find a diamond with a 41 pavilion that doesn't exhibit an issue. Some on this forum seek a 34/41 combo for instance.

Depending on the vendor and their capabilities they may be able to offer you a fully detailed SARIN report on the stone in question, which would provide the 8 individual values so you could confirm if there are any issues or not. Also, if there is a H&A image available, you might be able to pick up on some issues as well. However, I see the H&A image is only available on the other diamond.

Another issue that is probably beating a dead horse is the fact this is an IGI certificate. Granted, this is a synthetic stone but in the natural stone segment IGI is not well respected or trusted. Therefore, I am not sure how much I trust the reported data, or the color/clarity grading.

Someone mentioned the 1.07 D looked out of whack to them based on dimensions. I am not certain I agree with that sentiment. The H&A image looks good and the dimensions seem inline for the weight proportions. If available, I'd like to know more about the crown, pavilion, table and depth values before passing harsh judgment.

https://www.diamdb.com/compare/1.01ct-round-6.52x6.52x3.93-vs-1.07ct-round-6.65x6.65x4.01/

Capture.PNG

Try using the following criteria for a round:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer 62 or less)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with a 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets, aka LGF's
In addition to the above, keep in mind that you want COMPLIMENTARY angle combinations. What does this mean? Shallow pavilion paired with a steep crown (35c/40.6p). Or maybe the opposite, such as a 34c/41p. Ideal Tolk proportions are 34.5/40.75. Since GIA and AGS don't round to the hundredths, another very popular combo is 34.5/40.7 or 34.5/40.8.

I can't stress the importance of the crown/pavilion relationship. In a sense, diamonds are a math game and all this criteria determines how light bounces (or leaks) inside the diamond. When the geometry lines up properly, you get a firey diamond that has edge to edge brightness and actually looks bigger & whiter because it is cut properly.

Hopefully this gets you pointed in the right direction. Good luck. :cool2:
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,678
Another issue that is probably beating a dead horse is the fact this is an IGI certificate. Granted, this is a synthetic stone but in the natural stone segment IGI is not well respected or trusted. Therefore, I am not sure how much I trust the reported data, or the color/clarity grading.
Until GIA and AGS start grading MMDs properly (by which I mean precise colour and clarity, not just 'colourless/near-colourless' and 'very slightly included / slightly included' etc.), which they must be doing in the first place to put the stones into the correct wide-band grades, I think we are stuck with IGI and GCAL!

Both seem to be decent in terms of providing a good amount of info, though, if not quite to the level of full SARIN scans, so it's not all bad IMHO :))
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,082
Until GIA and AGS start grading MMDs properly (by which I mean precise colour and clarity, not just 'colourless/near-colourless' and 'very slightly included / slightly included' etc.), which they must be doing in the first place to put the stones into the correct wide-band grades, I think we are stuck with IGI and GCAL!

Both seem to be decent in terms of providing a good amount of info, though, if not quite to the level of full SARIN scans, so it's not all bad IMHO :))
I agree that GIA and AGS need to step up their synthetic certifications so they are at the same level with natural stones. As a 3rd party lab it seems weird to me they choose to deviate. If I pay someone $300 to be a lab, it really shouldn't matter if the stone is synthetic or natural. Now if I pay $100 instead then I would expect a different type of service and report.

I could go on but we are already far enough down a rabbit hole. And my thoughts and theories on the matter isn't going to change the reality of the situation at present.

I just know people rely on reports to make purchase decisions. In the natural world, we don't value an IGI D VS1 the same as a GIA/AGS D VS1. I'm not active enough in the synthetic market to know if IGI or GCAL is more trusted than the other, or equals. I just wish there was a better option is all.
 

Trl6347

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
7
While the HCA may give the 1.01 a passing score, I'd want to investigate it further. If you aren't aware, there are 8 crown and 8 pavilion angles on a round diamond. When you look at a lab report, only ONE value is provided which means each respective angle is rounded & averaged. The problem arises in the fact that at 41.2 pavilion wonky things can and do happen. It's very difficult to find a diamond with a 41 pavilion that doesn't exhibit an issue. Some on this forum seek a 34/41 combo for instance.

Depending on the vendor and their capabilities they may be able to offer you a fully detailed SARIN report on the stone in question, which would provide the 8 individual values so you could confirm if there are any issues or not. Also, if there is a H&A image available, you might be able to pick up on some issues as well. However, I see the H&A image is only available on the other diamond.

Another issue that is probably beating a dead horse is the fact this is an IGI certificate. Granted, this is a synthetic stone but in the natural stone segment IGI is not well respected or trusted. Therefore, I am not sure how much I trust the reported data, or the color/clarity grading.

Someone mentioned the 1.07 D looked out of whack to them based on dimensions. I am not certain I agree with that sentiment. The H&A image looks good and the dimensions seem inline for the weight proportions. If available, I'd like to know more about the crown, pavilion, table and depth values before passing harsh judgment.

https://www.diamdb.com/compare/1.01ct-round-6.52x6.52x3.93-vs-1.07ct-round-6.65x6.65x4.01/

Capture.PNG

Try using the following criteria for a round:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer 62 or less)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with a 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets, aka LGF's
In addition to the above, keep in mind that you want COMPLIMENTARY angle combinations. What does this mean? Shallow pavilion paired with a steep crown (35c/40.6p). Or maybe the opposite, such as a 34c/41p. Ideal Tolk proportions are 34.5/40.75. Since GIA and AGS don't round to the hundredths, another very popular combo is 34.5/40.7 or 34.5/40.8.

I can't stress the importance of the crown/pavilion relationship. In a sense, diamonds are a math game and all this criteria determines how light bounces (or leaks) inside the diamond. When the geometry lines up properly, you get a firey diamond that has edge to edge brightness and actually looks bigger & whiter because it is cut properly.

Hopefully this gets you pointed in the right direction. Good luck. :cool2:
While the HCA may give the 1.01 a passing score, I'd want to investigate it further. If you aren't aware, there are 8 crown and 8 pavilion angles on a round diamond. When you look at a lab report, only ONE value is provided which means each respective angle is rounded & averaged. The problem arises in the fact that at 41.2 pavilion wonky things can and do happen. It's very difficult to find a diamond with a 41 pavilion that doesn't exhibit an issue. Some on this forum seek a 34/41 combo for instance.

Depending on the vendor and their capabilities they may be able to offer you a fully detailed SARIN report on the stone in question, which would provide the 8 individual values so you could confirm if there are any issues or not. Also, if there is a H&A image available, you might be able to pick up on some issues as well. However, I see the H&A image is only available on the other diamond.

Another issue that is probably beating a dead horse is the fact this is an IGI certificate. Granted, this is a synthetic stone but in the natural stone segment IGI is not well respected or trusted. Therefore, I am not sure how much I trust the reported data, or the color/clarity grading.

Someone mentioned the 1.07 D looked out of whack to them based on dimensions. I am not certain I agree with that sentiment. The H&A image looks good and the dimensions seem inline for the weight proportions. If available, I'd like to know more about the crown, pavilion, table and depth values before passing harsh judgment.

https://www.diamdb.com/compare/1.01ct-round-6.52x6.52x3.93-vs-1.07ct-round-6.65x6.65x4.01/

Capture.PNG

Try using the following criteria for a round:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer 62 or less)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with a 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets, aka LGF's
In addition to the above, keep in mind that you want COMPLIMENTARY angle combinations. What does this mean? Shallow pavilion paired with a steep crown (35c/40.6p). Or maybe the opposite, such as a 34c/41p. Ideal Tolk proportions are 34.5/40.75. Since GIA and AGS don't round to the hundredths, another very popular combo is 34.5/40.7 or 34.5/40.8.

I can't stress the importance of the crown/pavilion relationship. In a sense, diamonds are a math game and all this criteria determines how light bounces (or leaks) inside the diamond. When the geometry lines up properly, you get a firey diamond that has edge to edge brightness and actually looks bigger & whiter because it is cut properly.

Hopefully this gets you pointed in the right direction. Good luck. :cool2:
Thank you for all the information! I have some studying to do :) Whats your opinion on a round with the following:

1.10 ct
Color E
VS1
Ideal Cut

35.0 Crown
40.8 Pavilion
58 Table
60.5 Depth
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,082
Thank you for all the information! I have some studying to do :) Whats your opinion on a round with the following:

1.10 ct
Color E
VS1
Ideal Cut

35.0 Crown
40.8 Pavilion
58 Table
60.5 Depth
Glad all my rambling made sense. ;)2

Just curious....but are you of Asian culture? I ask because high color and clarity is a big deal. I personally have no qualms with E and VS1, but you could probably stretch your dollar a little further if you don't have cultural reasons or high sensitivities.

For instance, a good eye clean SI1 or VS2 may offer a better bang for the buck. Couple that with a G/H color and you may save a few more bucks. Depending on the type of inclusions, SI1 works for many people and given the fact clarity is rated with 10x scopes, most people can't see much difference with their NAKED eye. Those suffering from mind clean issues, or with higher visual acuity may find more value in a VS2+ clarity.

Color is more subjective IMO. Although even for graders, it can a tough gig identifying 1-2 color grades difference unless side by side, with white backgrounds, proper lighting, etc. In the real world, it's less likely you'd notice but some claim they can. I tend to be picky, but my wife's color sensitivity makes me look like I'm a blind bat. In that regards you have to know you, but if you targeting D/E colored stones simply because they are "the best" I'd encourage you to go look at some stones in person and determine if you can really see the difference in a variety of lighting conditions before you pay the price premiums associated with higher colors. I personally never thought I'd see a lower colored stone I truly liked, but @lovedogs has a CBI K/M (trouble remembering which) that is gorgeous.

As far as the specs, the table is okay. I do worry a little about the 35/40.8 combo. Technically it falls within the criteria I listed earlier; however, having looked at a few ASET's, etc that more easily show leakage it seems that angle combo is hit and miss and depends on how tightly the stone was cut. Perhaps a video, etc might be helpful if an ASET isn't available.

If the stone is on hold, perhaps you could give a link so we can further evaluate it?
 

Trl6347

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
7
Glad all my rambling made sense. ;)2

Just curious....but are you of Asian culture? I ask because high color and clarity is a big deal. I personally have no qualms with E and VS1, but you could probably stretch your dollar a little further if you don't have cultural reasons or high sensitivities.

For instance, a good eye clean SI1 or VS2 may offer a better bang for the buck. Couple that with a G/H color and you may save a few more bucks. Depending on the type of inclusions, SI1 works for many people and given the fact clarity is rated with 10x scopes, most people can't see much difference with their NAKED eye. Those suffering from mind clean issues, or with higher visual acuity may find more value in a VS2+ clarity.

Color is more subjective IMO. Although even for graders, it can a tough gig identifying 1-2 color grades difference unless side by side, with white backgrounds, proper lighting, etc. In the real world, it's less likely you'd notice but some claim they can. I tend to be picky, but my wife's color sensitivity makes me look like I'm a blind bat. In that regards you have to know you, but if you targeting D/E colored stones simply because they are "the best" I'd encourage you to go look at some stones in person and determine if you can really see the difference in a variety of lighting conditions before you pay the price premiums associated with higher colors. I personally never thought I'd see a lower colored stone I truly liked, but @lovedogs has a CBI K/M (trouble remembering which) that is gorgeous.

As far as the specs, the table is okay. I do worry a little about the 35/40.8 combo. Technically it falls within the criteria I listed earlier; however, having looked at a few ASET's, etc that more easily show leakage it seems that angle combo is hit and miss and depends on how tightly the stone was cut. Perhaps a video, etc might be helpful if an ASET isn't available.

If the stone is on hold, perhaps you could give a link so we can further evaluate it?
Thanks for the response! No, I’m not of asian culture I’m from PA haha. I guess I’ve been looking at the D,E,F colors, Ideal cut and VS1, VS2, and higher based on things I’ve read on other websites. I’m working with a 5k budget for the diamond itself so I’ve just kind of been looking around and trying to find the best diamond in that range based on the traditional 4C’s. I’m new to the crown, pavilion, and other measurment characteristics to look for so I’m trying to take those into account now. I’ll have to see if I can find that diamond again that I was referring to I was looking through some of the websites on MMD that was listed on a thread in this forum.

Edit: I think I found the ASET for this particular one.

27C27DAD-287C-4FC6-A716-E100032D7B99.jpeg
 
Last edited:
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