Choosing a Sapphire Ain't Easy..............

[Sapphire1]

I hear ya.
I'm looking at it again, and I still see an inconsistency with the color, lighter in the center, darker at the ends.
The round (3.04ct) I viewed last week looked great in all lights, fantastic brilliance, rich color, etc.
The stone pooped. This stone doesn't pop for me.
I'll have to get that round stone again to view for a couple of days to see for sure if I want to spend the money.

 

[minousbijoux]

It sounds like you've found your stone. You keep referring to the round. I have a feeling that if you get this one or another one, you may always be thinking "Yeah, but that round stone had it all..." If it had the color, cut, scintillation and size you like, then bit the bullet and buy it. You don't want it to be "the one that got away."

 

[Sapphire1]

It sounds like you've found your stone. You keep referring to the round. I have a feeling that if you get this one or another one, you may always be thinking "Yeah, but that round stone had it all..." If it had the color, cut, scintillation and size you like, then bit the bullet and buy it. You don't want it to be "the one that got away."

Yes, I am using that round as a standard.
Perhaps if I didn't view it, I'd think this cushion is all that and a bag of chips.
I've viewed 3 stones so far.
It may just be that a cushion cut is not for me, and that I prefer a round.
The cushion is just lacking the brilliance I'm expecting, in addition to the saturation of color, comparing it to the round.
Maybe cushions just lack a brilliance that I see in a round, but I would think cushions would also display brilliance or sitillation given the right stone.
With that being said, $2500/ct for the round is out of my budget, which is why I mentioned in earlier posts maybe obtaining a Sapphire with the Qualities I'm looking for will either require me to increase my budget, or hold off on purchasing a sapphire until I can increase my budget for one.

 

[chrono]

Seems like a nice sapphire but it does have issues with cut and colour.

 

[marymm]

**edited by moderator to remove reference to post that was removed**

Sapphire1, there are some attributes of the cushion I do like very much, but it seems fairly clear it is not the sapphire for you. I am guessing the sleepiness/silk of the cushion which gives rise to that gorgeous velvety-ness is also why it may not be as brilliant as the round you had seen. I am sure the right sapphire is out there for you - but it may take some time and a lot of look-sees.

 

[Sapphire1]

Sapphire1, there are some attributes of the cushion I do like very much, but it seems fairly clear it is not the sapphire for you. I am guessing the sleepiness/silk of the cushion which gives rise to that gorgeous velvety-ness is also why it may not be as brilliant as the round you had seen. I am sure the right sapphire is out there for you - but it may take some time and a lot of look-sees.

Thanks for your feedback.
Good point about the velvety look, but one of the things I don't like about the stone is the unevenness of the color, whether it is zoning or not, I'm unsure, but there is nice saturation in certain areas and not in others.
This may not be as clear in the pics as it is in person, but it does appear noticeable in a couple of the images.

 

[minousbijoux]

Overall, I see a stone that looks pretty in some photos, but has definite areas of almost extinction where I assume due to cutting, the light is just not returning in the same fashion as other areas and the stone looks uneven in color. I too, would think it might be color zoning, but I don't think so because in some photos it looks fine, which leads me to believe its the cutting. It also has that soapy quality of a stone lacking in saturation - especially the profile shot - and it looks to be a bit windowed. I would definitely not call this stone velvety, which implies to me a high level of saturation combined with evenly distributed silk.

 

[Sapphire1]

I picked up the 3.04ct round sapphire earlier today.
It is:
Weight - 3.04ct
Diameter - 8.37mm
Depth - 5.8mm
I'm holding onto it through Wed. so I can have some time to view it under different lighting conditions. The Sun had already began to set, so the following pics were taken under incandescent lighting.
The last picture is of the stone's profile looking at the girdle
At the 5 o'clock position there appears to be a scratch on the girdle, which is visible under 10x magnification. A Gemologist had viewed this stone before the holidays, and told me there is a feather under the girdle, but doesn't affect the stone negatively.

When I was viewing it earlier, I saw what appeared to be extinction, but am unsure if it is just the way the light is coming into the stone, and the angles I'm holding the stone at. You guys would know better than I.

I do like the color and look of the stone, but I also don't want to overpay for a stone, even if I like it. I'm in no rush.
One thing i notice is the more I look at these different Sapphires, and compare them to what I've seen and read, I see more things like extinction, zoning, etc. and I don't want to get caught up looking for a stone without flaws, because that doesn't exist
If I see things with a loupe, that doesn't matter as long as the stone is eye clean.

While the pics aren't the greatest, I would appreciate your opinions on this stone.
I'll take some more pics tomorrow in indirect Sunlight.

 

[Roxy]

Okay, I just had to post to say that you guys are really scaring me ! I've spent the last 9 years learning about diamonds & just completed that project, and now I'm at the very beginning of my next project - a sapphire RHR. I was so excited until I saw this thread. My goodness, I knew it wouldn't be easy but I had no idea about the amount of info I'd have to stuff into my pea-sized brain.

For now, I'll just stick to looking at your pictures of stones (which are beautiful) & begin to try to absorb all of this new info. I'm so glad I'll have you guys to help me ... whew!

 

[LD]

Sapphire1 - please can you describe what you see that you're calling "zoning"? Forget looking at it from the bottom - just face up what do you see? I have a feeling you may be confusing zoning and extinction. Forgive me if I'm wrong but there's very little evidence of zoning in your face up photos (although I appreciate you've said it's difficult to pick up in the photos). There is a hint in the bottom up shot BUT honestly it's difficult to tell from that photo.

Here's a photo of zoning below - is that what you see?

If it's zoning it won't move when you rotate the stone. If it's extinction, it will move around as you move the stone. The extinction is evident in your photos and the fact that it moves around is typical of that.

It's a pretty sapphire but if it's not screaming "keep me" then don't. There's always more stones out there (although finding a round isn't easy).

 

[Sapphire1]

Sapphire1 - please can you describe what you see that you're calling "zoning"? Forget looking at it from the bottom - just face up what do you see? I have a feeling you may be confusing zoning and extinction. Forgive me if I'm wrong but there's very little evidence of zoning in your face up photos (although I appreciate you've said it's difficult to pick up in the photos). There is a hint in the bottom up shot BUT honestly it's difficult to tell from that photo.

Here's a photo of zoning below - is that what you see?

If it's zoning it won't move when you rotate the stone. If it's extinction, it will move around as you move the stone. The extinction is evident in your photos and the fact that it moves around is typical of that.

It's a pretty sapphire but if it's not screaming "keep me" then don't. There's always more stones out there (although finding a round isn't easy).

Hi LD,

Regarding zoning and extinction:
In the cushion, I mentioned I noticed what I perceived as zoning. The stone was darker at the ends and lighter in the middle. And didn't change position as I rotated the stone. I've since returned the Cushion cut stone, although it did have that silky look to it, it didn't have that Scintillation I would like.
In the Round 3.04ct stone, the one I just posted pics of, I've noticed what I perceive as extinction. It moves as I rotate the stone as the pics indicate.
Face up, and while viewing the stone, it is hardly noticeable, if at all.

EDIT:
With the above being said about the Extinction in the Round stone, as I said, it doesn't appear to take away from the total look of the stone, and is more noticeable in the magnified pics of course.
But at the price I'll be paying for the stone, if I do purchase it, I want to make sure I'm not over paying for this stone, taking into consideration the extinction, and feather under the girdle at 5 o'clock.
I understand that one of the most important things is to like, or rather Love the stone, and that Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder, But I want to pay a fair price for the stone, and by fair, I mean what other stones similar to this one would go for, and of course, I don't mind paying less than the going rate
Understanding of course, that All Sapphires have inclusions, but it is what is perceivable to the naked eye that is important, as long as the integrity of the Stone is not sacrificed by these inclusions.

 

[Sapphire1]

Okay, I just had to post to say that you guys are really scaring me ! I've spent the last 9 years learning about diamonds & just completed that project, and now I'm at the very beginning of my next project - a sapphire RHR. I was so excited until I saw this thread. My goodness, I knew it wouldn't be easy but I had no idea about the amount of info I'd have to stuff into my pea-sized brain.

For now, I'll just stick to looking at your pictures of stones (which are beautiful) & begin to try to absorb all of this new info. I'm so glad I'll have you guys to help me ... whew!

You made me laugh because I know exactly how you feel, although I may be making things more difficult then they really are.
With the above being said, picking a Diamond is much easier than a Sapphire, imho

I'm enclosing a few more close-up pics of the round 3.04ct, taken under Incandescent lighting (3) 40W bulbs I believe, as there are no markings.






The stone is bluer in 'real life,' than it shows on my pc screen.

 

[chrono]

Colour aside, this sapphire is showing blackness or extinction up to 50% or half of the sapphire in almost all your pictures. Is this what you see in person? If so, this is not a stone I would get at the asking price of over $2500 per carat.

 

[Sapphire1]

I am seeing extinction, but it is not following the rotation of my hand in all instances, so I'm unsure if it is lighting, angles or extinction.
In real life, what I presume is extinction, is about 25% at it's greatest, but less most of the time.
I'm gonna say as you do, that it's extinction, and I will take more pics in the daylight tomorrow, and most likely get a better idea.
In the showroom, as I was walking around under fluorescent and halogens, I didn't see the extinction as I would have asked the dealer about it, but now I see this 'darkness' more so in the lights I'm looking under which are cfl incandescent and incandescent.
I'm a lighting guy, and I gotta have some of the worse lighting where I live

With the above being said, as you say Chrono, I'm not going to pay 7500 if the stone has extinction to the extent it appears.

Should a Round have less extinction as compared to other cuts, and does the feather under the girdle create an integrity issue?

 

[Travelngal]

I don't know a thing about this company but some of the blues are pretty. I'd have to have just about everything recut, but that's me.
http://www.africagems.com/unheatedbluesapphire.html

If $ wasn't an issue, I'd seriously look at this stone. Wowsers.

http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-3075.html

 

[Sapphire1]

No pics today, as it's snowing and raining.
But the 3.04ct round will be going back, as there is extinction/darkness in the stone as Chrono pointed out. Sometimes it is at 35%.
From my readings, a stone with extinction of less than 25% would be considered excellent, unless what I read was incorrect.

This issue raises a question regarding future stones.
This stone had extinction and a feather under the girdle. For approx $2500/ct which is the limit of my budget for a 3ct + stone, I know that the stone I end up buying will have either extinction, a small window, feathers, silk and/or whatever else. I know the objective is to keep these features to a minimum, but for the price I'll be paying, I'm unsure of what the minimum threshold is.
I'll return the round, and let the seller know that after viewing the stone a few days, there appears to be more extinction than I'd prefer. With that being said, I'm unsure of what type of extinction to expect for my budget.
In addition, maybe I should look for a slightly lighter tone stone, as from my research, and posts here, the darker stones will show more extinction than lighter stones.

Anyway, the search will continue.
What I though was a beautiful stone, still is, but not as beautiful as I first thought, due to my accumulation of knowledge from Pricescope and other sources.
Better to be well informed than not, especially with a purchase of this amount of money, which is not small change to me.
But as I mentioned, I have to get a better idea of what to expect and not expect for my money.

 

[Sapphire1]

I don't know a thing about this company but some of the blues are pretty. I'd have to have just about everything recut, but that's me.
http://www.africagems.com/unheatedbluesapphire.html

Hi.
I've viewed that sight a while ago, and their prices seem to be very high, at least for my budget.
I believe stones can be had similar, at a more competitive price.

 

[Travelngal]

I thought they seemed high as well... But I do like the one stone. So if price weren't an issue and I didn't want to spend a lot of time looking...

Even with 20% off special it's still high. IMO

 

[Sapphire1]

The cushion does appear very dark, but always have to view the stone in person.
Yes, with 20% off the price is still high, and depending on the color/quality of the stone, may be higher than we think.
Also, the retailers account for the 20% off with higher pricing to begin with, most of the time, Of course, have this practice is not restricted to the jewelry business

 

[chrono]

Extinction is usually a function of cut, material itself or both. In the case of corundum, it is almost always a cut issue. The sapphire you looked at isn't dark at all in tone, just not well saturated and not well cut. If you like a medium dark (trade ideal), you can find something better for less online. B&M stores charge about 2x more.

 

[Travelngal]

Is extinction in a colored gem the same as leakage in a diamond? Ideally you want 100% light return out of a diamond, I'm assumIng the same holds true with a colored stone????

 

[Sapphire1]

And the search continues.
If I could afford it, I'd purchase an Intense Blue Diamond
So, I'll look for a stone with my specs, and expect to pay approx. $1500-2000. Other vendors have quoted more than that so far, but I'll keep looking.
2 of three were in store, and I returned or am returning them.
1 was through the mail which I returned already.
If I have to, I'll travel out of state, as I'd like to view the stone in person. With that being said, I'd most likely bring it home anyway to have a chance to view it under different lighting conditions, as well as not being in a sales environment, as it is easier to be distracted from noticing certain features about the stone, good and not so good.

 

[LD]

Sapphire1 - I'm a little troubled by your photos because although I agree the stone has some extinction, I do think you may also be obstructing the sapphire when taking the photos (with your head/body). When you do this, it greatly affects how the stone looks. You will always see areas that are lighter/darker because that's the nature of a sapphire. It's when it takes over the stone and becomes worrisome that you don't want it. If you're searching for something with an even tone, in all lighting conditions, you're unlikely to get it.

I think it's a good idea for you to see as many stones as you can and this will also help your eye to develop. If it's any consolation it took me years to find "my precious"! Fingers crossed you find the one for you quickly.

 

[Travelngal]

How do you take pics of gemstones without getting extinction that isn't there in person?

 

[chrono]

With coloured stones, good cutting is done to maximize the strength of colour. If cut too shallow, colour and light will leak through. If cut too deep or with incorrect angles, it can create extinction and / or colour is not bounced back ideally to the eye. Very good cutting will not only bounce colour back to the eye well but also help with added brilliance and liveliness to the gem.

 

[LD]

How do you take pics of gemstones without getting extinction that isn't there in person?

Extinction is caused by cut.

Obstruction is shadow but can look the same.

When taking photos it's very important not to shadow the gem with the camera or your head/body. This is why light boxes are commonly used. However, if you're aware of obstruction, then you minimise it in photos. The first photos Sapphire1 posted avoid obstruction but the latest ones I think are obstructed.

 

[chrono]

Some gems tend to blackout or become extinct in certain lighting like pyrope garnets but not for sapphires. If this is seen in sapphires, it will be due to cut. I'm curious to see if it is true extinction due to cutting or shadow (body, head or camera obstruction).

 

[Sapphire1]

I do see what appears to be extinction when not taking pics, so I don't think it's an obstruction issue.
As I mentioned, I've been viewing the stone in the worst of lighting conditions, being cfl incandescent. The extinction I'm seeing may just be extinction, but within acceptable parameters to deem it a very good cut,
I'm going to look at the stone again tomorrow in Daylight, when the Sun is out, if it comes out
Initially, I liked the stone until I got into this extinction thing. Whether it is detrimental to the stone, and is of a high percentage, I'm unsure.
I'll also try to have a trained eye look at the stone in person next week, prior to its return.

I've posted this link as it is very informative regarding photographing Sapphire.

http://www.wildfishgems.com/sapphire_on_photo

 

[Travelngal]

http://www.precisiongem.com/Gemstones/rapidcart/sapphire.html

 

[minousbijoux]

I do see what appears to be extinction when not taking pics, so I don't think it's an obstruction issue.
As I mentioned, I've been viewing the stone in the worst of lighting conditions, being cfl incandescent. The extinction I'm seeing may just be extinction, but within acceptable parameters to deem it a very good cut,
I'm going to look at the stone again tomorrow in Daylight, when the Sun is out, if it comes out
Initially, I liked the stone until I got into this extinction thing. Whether it is detrimental to the stone, and is of a high percentage, I'm unsure.
I'll also try to have a trained eye look at the stone in person next week, prior to its return.

I've posted this link as it is very informative regarding photographing Sapphire.

http://www.wildfishgems.com/sapphire_on_photo

I'm afraid to say there is no "rule" or guideline as to what is acceptable with respect to extinction. Personally, I really try to avoid it. As others have mentioned, there are two factors affecting light interplay in stones: one is the faceting and cut. Too shallow, and light travels right through. Too deep and light disappears into the stone making it dark. Facets that are off - not to correct angles - reflect light in the wrong direction instead of back out through the crown. I abhor this extinction and will not accept it in stones I choose to own. It drives me to distraction!

The other type of "extinction" (this emphasis is to acknowledge that many of the lapidaries who frequent this board do not believe what I'm about to describe is extinction) is due to the light source and head obstruction. This often results in what the expert cutters call shadowing or obstruction, but a lot of us refer to as 1/2 and 1/2 extinction. There are many examples of this on the board, and several threads devoted to the subject. The bottom line result is that one side will be consistently and symmetrically darker than the other, typically in elongated stones like ovals or rectangles. In darker toned stones, this may mean that one side almost completely blacks out. In lighter toned stones, it may just result in a situation where the stone looks two-toned. Unless its a medium dark to dark toned stone, this kind of extinction doesn't bother me as much as the first kind, because its symmetrical and you can still see color.

As for seeing stones in a jewelers shop, Sapphire1, you have just perfectly described, and unfortunately witnessed firsthand, the pitfall of seeing stones in jewelry store lighting. As a practice, they have lighting most flattering to stones, both in type and in placement of lighting. No wonder you saw even color in your stone. The trick, as you've now learned, is to see the stone in various lighting, particularly in the type most similar to the future wearer's typical lighting situation.

I think you made the right decision, as the stone was not as nice in hue as I thought it would be based on your description. I notice enough deficiency in saturation as to result in a slightly greyish stone. Please bring whatever other contenders you find, and we'll keep our eyes peeled as well.