Chinese Engagement Customs

[spntoriams]

Hello I am about to have my engagement party in two weeks. I am Chinese (half Cantonese and half Toisan) and my bride to be is from Taiwan. She informed me recently that her mom has some traditions she wants to be followed on the day before the party.

The following are the things they have planned:

1) Me and my parents go to their house and I ask for their daughter''s hand in marriage.
2) We present the bride with some sort of jewelry (I don''t know how much it is supposed to be but I hear it should be from $1,000 to $2,000 or higher)
3) We bring over 12 boxes of chocolate and 12 boxes of cookies

Then they take us out to dinner.

My parents have been asking other relatives and friends and have not heard of these things. I don''t know if this is a Taiwanese tradition or some other tradition, but my parents think it is unfair. (Mostly the part about the jewelry) My mom has mostly found out other things like before the wedding, the groom''s side brings over a big pig and another relative''s friend said the groom received a watch from the bride''s side and vice versa, he gave her something. Please write me and tell me what I should do! Should me and my parents just "give in" and do everything her side asked? We are really naive in this area, thanks!

 

[ladykemma]

who keeps said jewelry. is it part of the bride''s dowry?

 

[diamondlove]

I think this is more dependent on you and/or your parents'' financial situation. IF this jewelry might put a strain on them then that might be something to discuss with your bride to be.

IF money isn''t really an issue then I don''t see why it might be a big problem to follow the traditions of your future wife''s culture. There are a lot of cultures that have traditions involving wedding gifts from the in-laws so I guess I don''t find this too unusual. A gift from in laws to a future daughter in law is also not that unusual in general.

I guess I find it interesting that you guys view it as if you will be ''giving in'' if you do this. It should be a happy occasion and a gift given with good intentions but if your parents find it offensive then perhaps you should discuss this with your bride to be.

DL

 

[ocbride2007]

My Fiance is Vietnamese, and we didn''t have an engagement party, but I''ve been to a few in his family... Basically the grooms family has to walk down the street to the bride''s house with a pig (cooked of course), various tins of fruit and other goodies, brings jewelry, to ask permission from the bride''s family. Then, after the whole ceremony, the brides family usually has cooked some food (egg rolls, shrimp, noodles, etc) and everyone eats that along with the pig the groom brought. The brides family also buys moon cakes to give out to everyone there and those who couldn''t make it to announce the engagement. I''ve only been to a few, and they are always in Vietnamese (I speak almost none), so I''m not 100% sure of the details. They are also rather large, with maybe up to 100 people.

It''s probably pretty common among their family, all Asians have slightly different traditions. It may seem a little unfair, but I would ask your fiancee if other women in her family have had the same ceremony. They probably are only expecting what they have seen for others in their family. Especially if she is the only daughter, they will really want to keep this tradition alive for her.

I would start talking now about how you are going to work both of your traditions into your wedding ceremony now. I am sure both of your families will want a say in how it is organized. I have consented to a mostly Asian style wedding, (I am white) with asian food, and I will let them karaoke, but I refuse to have a Vietnamese band or DJ - I want something for myself (and my fiance - he is pretty americanized). They typically wear 3 dresses on the day - the gown, the traditional dress (ao dai) and then another dress to cut the cake - I said I will gladly wear the ao dai, but I''m putting my gown back on after that - I love it too much to take it off that soon!!

I know every Asian culture differs in tradition a bit, but when you are asking her family for her hand, you should probably follow hers. Then you can split it more evenly with the actual wedding. Remember, it is still important to show her family that you are going to respect them, and it is important that they give their blessing. If money is an issue for the jewelry, maybe see if a less expensive piece would work, but you could still give something as a gesture.

Good luck with the party... but maybe use this as an opportunity to set some "ground rules" for the wedding itself... it''s an exercise in compromise. I wouldn''t call it "giving in" if you tell her the engagement party can be her way, but there are some Chinese traditions you must follow for the wedding, and some Taiwanese traditions, as well as your own, may have to be sacrificed for the sake of time, budget, etc, but you will do your best to make sure both of your backgrounds and families are well represented and comfortable.

 

[Fancy605]

I feel like I just saw something like this on one of those wedding shows (A Wedding Story or I do, Let''s Eat or something) where the groom and his parents went to the bride''s family with gifts and asked permission. Did anyone else happen to see that? Your situation really reminds me of that show.

I really have no idea about this other than what I''ve seen on TV, as I am not of asian decent myself, but perhaps you could try discussing your family''s feelings with your girlfriend/fiance.

 

[flopkins]

I have heard of the pig, but not the others. Ask your FI what she''s comfortable with.

 

[qtiekiki]

I had read about the jewelry tradition for engagement before on a Taiwanese wedding website and my cousin is actually being asked of giving jewelry too. That is still a common tradition for Taiwanese, and was at one point common among Chinese also. So I don''t think your FI''s parents are being unfair on purpose.

Personally how do you and your FI feel about it? If you give the jewelry on the engagement, would you still have to give jewelry on the wedding day? I think it would be ok if you only have to give jewelry for one occasion. That seems fair, but not for both. If your mom thinks it''s unfair, would you be able to pay or help pay for the jewelry? That way both parents can be happy.

The most important thing to remember is that you two are getting married, and all of you will be family. It''s important to compromise and communicate, and not let all the traditions get in the way. P.S. traditions were the biggest issues when we were planning our wedding, but it all works out in the end. So try not to stress about it.

 

[codex57]

You'll find that all those Chinese traditions are utter BS. Pure, unadulterated, BS. Why? B/c families pick and choose from all the different traditions out there. Unless it's a couple from the same tiny village getting married, traditions get blended. Now, it's all a freaking mish mash.

I had discussions with a bunch of family and friends regarding Chinese traditions. I'm talking Viet, Chinese Viet, Toisan, Tiu Jioh, Mandarin Taiwanese, Taiwanese Taiwanese, Fukinese, Shanghainese, Cantonese, and more. My uncle and dad love Chinese history and they dug into it a little for me. The end result? It's all so mixed up it doesn't matter anymore. For example, San Francisco Cantonese and Hong Kong Cantonese are actually quite different, even if the SF ones think they're exactly the same and some didn't even leave Hong Kong all that long ago.

What matters is what's truly important to the families involved (and by extension, the friends that they're trying to impress by sticking to these traditions).

Now, if that's what they want, do you really think it's that big a deal? Is it worth a fight, or is it just easier to do the stuff and not fight about it? Is what they're asking for really that hard to do?

1) You drive over and do a fake, formally, proposal? Not hard.
2) Yes it seems unfair and might be if her family doesn't return the favor, but this actually is quite common across many of the various Chinese cultures. The variations to this are endless and often a place where families start cherry picking their favorite bits since we're talking money. $1000 - $2000 may seem a lot. So, do it in jewelry. They'll have a harder time figuring out how much the stuff is worth so you can get away with less.
3) This is getting off light, trust me. I'll explain in a bit.


Ok, I'll give you a couple of examples:

Me:
I had to show up to do #1. No biggie. Normally, you pull up in a limo. My MIL is cool and let me tweak it a bit since she knows my family has not heard of a lot of this stuff. I pull up in my mom's E-class instead. Luxury car so close enough. I had about 6 or 7 trays of various stuff I had to bring over. The roast pig was supposed to be included, but my MIL didn't like the idea of killing a young pig for this cuz of her Bhuddist beliefs (which often include vegetarianisms on certain days). Things included cookies, abalone (not cheap), oranges, and other stuff I can't remember. Me and a bunch of males carry a tray and troop in to present it to her family. Jewelry was presented, but this stuff was presented to me and my wife. My mom thought it was weird, but since it wasn't going to my wife's family, she didn't fight too much.

ok, that was the nice story. here's the bad one.

My parents and my wife's mom are surprisingly liberal Chinese, even tho they do many traditional Chinese things. This next story is about my wife's brother and his wife. Her family is evil IMO. Voodoo worshipping devils. Unfortunately, that last sentence is part literal.

Ok, here's what he had to go through.

He had to show up to ask her family to let him marry their daughter. He previously had to pay something like $10,000 to the mom cuz that's what she demanded. (Now that I type it, I remember that I had to fork over some cash, but it was only like $2888 and my MIL handed it right back to us later cuz it was just to fulfill traditions). Well, being down so much cash (and having heard his family tell him not to marry her cuz that was an extremely ridiculous amount), he didn't expect to have to shell out any more. Wrong. He shows up and her family had erected all these temporary doors from the bottom of the stairway to their front door. At each door, he had to knock, pay compliments and crap, and then pay even more money before being allowed through. I can't remember how many doors they had, but it was a few and he ended up shelling thousands more. He also had to beg his family to either not break the doors down and go apesh!t on her family or to just all get up and ditch him and her family.

After he made it through, he also had to do the whole carrying in trays of stuff and other traditions. My Sister Inlaw told me this story later and she was PISSED cuz that family had clearly cherry picked the traditions that best advantaged them. Usually, the traditions are balanced or at least not so lopsided. I asked around later and confirmed that family cherry picked traditions.

So, to sum it up, if those 3 things are all your inlaws are asking for, you're getting off DAMN lucky and to just do it and get that crap over with.

 

[codex57]

Oh, and in your situation, it''s actually kinda fair on both sides. Your side gives various gifts to show respect, etc. They pay it back by taking your side out to dinner and paying for it as thanks. Numbers might not line up exactly, but it''s not something you quibble over. Ok, it''s not something two Taiwanese families that are about to have their kids get married quibble over.

My best man is Mandarin Taiwanese. He married a Taiwanese Taiwanese girl. You''d think they''re all just Taiwanese, but no. They had their own culture wars apparently. Anyways, my point is that during the courtship, the families were eventually introduced. Once they realized their kids were gonna get married, they started doing stuff to impress the other side. The most humorous things they did was that both sides love the Food Network and viewed themselves as amateur chefs. And wine lovers. So, they took turns inviting the other side over for dinner. Each time, the host family would prepare the meal and serve it with wine. It started off small. Normal dinner with maybe one special dish. However, it slowly turned into a competition where they kept upping the stakes. Eventually, according to my buddy, it turned into sort of a Iron Chef like competition with both sets of parents blowing a ton of money and time on extravagant ingredients as well as wine. Course, my friend and his now wife were benefitting from all of this and loving it so they didn''t say a word to their parents.

I told my dad, who has a bunch of Taiwanese clients and has a key Taiwanese employee to deal with all the unique Taiwanese traditions, about this showmanship and he told me it falls within the "normal" range for Taiwanese behavior. Things can be crazier depending on the wealth level of the parties involved and how important it is for them to show off and gain face.

So, again, if that''s all you''re forced to do, you''re getting off pretty damn lucky.

 

[Trelala]

Honestly, if you''re worried about "fairness," I''m pretty sure everything will even out. You give her 22k gold jewelry (bangles, thick necklaces with heavy pendants, etc.) which will eventually go to your kids. They treat you to a 12 course seafood banquet.
It will be slightly uneven because according to tradition, to make up for taking a daughter away, you have to pay for her. sounds awful, but there it is. That''s why in Mandarin Chinese, grooms say they''re going to "tryu3" a wife, "raise" a wife. And the bride''s parents say their daughter is going to "jia4 tsu1," or marry her out. those are my clumsy translations.

Anyway, everything you mentioned in your post was followed by my family. My ABC cousin with her Taiwanese Taiwanese parents and her Chinese-Vietnamese groom followed this. My Taiwanese Taiwanese parents and my fiance''s Hakka Taiwanese and "Outsider" Taiwanese (wai4 sen3 zen3, the ones that fled China with Chiang Kai-shek) parents will probably let us off easy though.

To me, it sounds like you haven''t heard of these traditions before so you''re just double checking that your fiancee''s family isn''t making this up to take advantage of your family...

good luck!

 

[Trelala]

I think you''re refering to Ang Lee''s "A Wedding Banquet" (1993)? I read he based most of it after his own Taiwanese wedding, haha.

I feel like I just saw something like this on one of those wedding shows (A Wedding Story or I do, Let''s Eat or something) where the groom and his parents went to the bride''s family with gifts and asked permission.

 

[scarlet16]

Does anyone have a good website that lists the "gifts" usually presented at an engagement ceremony - and explains the meanings? My fiance is not taiwanese and I''d like him to send the information to his parents. Thanks!

 

[codex57]

Date: 8/3/2006 12:26:45 PM
Author: scarlet16
Does anyone have a good website that lists the ''gifts'' usually presented at an engagement ceremony - and explains the meanings? My fiance is not taiwanese and I''d like him to send the information to his parents. Thanks!

You likely won''t find anything good. Every single family seems to have their own idea of what constitutes "traditional" gifts to be presented.

Engagement ceremonies are even more rare nowadays.

It''s best to just straight up ask your parents what they expect and what the meanings of them are. You don''t know so it likely doesn''t matter what he brings to you. You just do this stuff to appease the people who do care. Parents, other family, their friends, whoever. If no one cares, don''t do it. If they do, then ask what they expect because it''s literally so scrambled nowadays that expectations are entirely individualistic.

 

[qtiekiki]

Here are a few websites with gifts list (some gifts have explanation but other don''t). They are not Taiwanese sites, but hopefully it will give your fiance some general ideas. I think they are helpful for someone who doesn''t have much ideas about the traditions, even if traditions very from families to families.

wedding.esdlife.com
chinabridal

 

[codex57]

I''ve really gotta take issue with that China Bridal list. 9 is ok. Means long life/forever. Good when discussing family. However, you may wanna consider doing a monetary amount that ends in 8. 8 means money. When talking cash, many Chinese center the amount around the number 8 b/c it''s money. You use the number 9 for a food item or something like that.

Also, they mentioned seafood presented in a group of 4. That''s the thing that really worried me about that site. 4 means death. That''s usually something you''d like to steer clear of. Just go to a Chinese restaurant and see how many wedding banquets they have scheduled on the 14th.

I''ll just list a rough translation of all the numbers and whoever needs to can just copy/paste it in an e-mail or whatever.

1 = will happen/certainly/must

2 = easy

3 = (give) birth - a good thing in Chinese culture

4 = death

5 = won''t/not

6 = always

7 = no meaning I know of

8 = money

9 = forever

You can mix and match numbers to get the meaning you want. For example, 14 means you will die. You can tell who''s a Chinese driver usually by reading the numbers on their personalized license plate. Often has some combo with an 8 in it.

 

[qtiekiki]

Date: 8/4/2006 2:15:56 PM
Author: codex57
I''ve really gotta take issue with that China Bridal list. 9 is ok. Means long life/forever. Good when discussing family. However, you may wanna consider doing a monetary amount that ends in 8. 8 means money. When talking cash, many Chinese center the amount around the number 8 b/c it''s money. You use the number 9 for a food item or something like that.

Also, they mentioned seafood presented in a group of 4. That''s the thing that really worried me about that site. 4 means death. That''s usually something you''d like to steer clear of. Just go to a Chinese restaurant and see how many wedding banquets they have scheduled on the 14th.

I''ll just list a rough translation of all the numbers and whoever needs to can just copy/paste it in an e-mail or whatever.

1 = will happen/certainly/must

2 = easy

3 = (give) birth - a good thing in Chinese culture

4 = death

5 = won''t/not

6 = always

7 = no meaning I know of

8 = money

9 = forever

You can mix and match numbers to get the meaning you want. For example, 14 means you will die. You can tell who''s a Chinese driver usually by reading the numbers on their personalized license plate. Often has some combo with an 8 in it.

Codex, are you born in the U.S.? Because traditionally and in Hong Kong, people actually use 9 for money much more than 8. Like you said, 9 means long lasting/forever and it''s more appropriate for a wedding (meaning a long lasting marriage) than 8. Also the gifts are often given in 4 because that''s two pairs, so the bride''s family keep a pair and return a pair to the groom''s family.

I noticed that Chinese in U.S. are more superstitious about the numbers than Chinese in Hong Kong and China. When I was growing up there, no one really cares that much about 4 sounding like death, etc. It''s funny, but Chinese seems much more attach to the numbers here and when Chinese immigrate here, they become attach to the numbers too.

 

[codex57]

Date: 8/4/2006 3:41:59 PM
Author: qtiekiki

Date: 8/4/2006 2:15:56 PM

Codex, are you born in the U.S.? Because traditionally and in Hong Kong, people actually use 9 for money much more than 8. Like you said, 9 means long lasting/forever and it''s more appropriate for a wedding (meaning a long lasting marriage) than 8. Also the gifts are often given in 4 because that''s two pairs, so the bride''s family keep a pair and return a pair to the groom''s family.


I noticed that Chinese in U.S. are more superstitious about the numbers than Chinese in Hong Kong and China. When I was growing up there, no one really cares that much about 4 sounding like death, etc. It''s funny, but Chinese seems much more attach to the numbers here and when Chinese immigrate here, they become attach to the numbers too.

Yeah, I noticed that too, but it still happens to the Chinese in Hong Kong/China/Taiwan. It may just be cuz personalized license plates are easier to get here so people think about it more. No auctions where the good numbers go for the cost of a house. But, it definitely throws another wrinkle into the planning. I had a super hard time finding a good date for my wedding cuz of all the various numbers, lucky wedding days based on the astrological stuff, etc.

And I was born here, but the number attitude (particularly regarding # seems pretty evenly distributed btw the ABC''s and the ones who weren''t. I think it''s just a US thing, but it''s still something that will need to be considered.