Carat size vs. H&A - your opinions please?

[RoughRider]

Hi folks,
Well, my g/f is leaning toward RBs now (she originally liked the Princess from pictures, but changed her mind when we saw them in person).

Anyway, I was looking at a couple of sites and it looks like (very rough generalization coming up ...) I can get a 1.0 - 1.05 ct F VS2 unbranded H&A or a 1.2 ct F VS2 "Ideal" cut diamond for around $7500 (a little above my budget, but I''m guessing around the same ct. diff will hold in a G color).

She and I change our minds about which is more important all the time - better performer or larger size? She is a size 5 so the 1 ct. doesn''t look small on her finger.

I was hoping you folks could chime in with your personal preference between the 2 choices (we don''t want to go down to a SI1). Kind of an informal poll.

Thanks for your help!

 

[aljdewey]

Do yourself a favor.....get crown/pav angles on both diamonds, and see how they stack up for cut.

Keep in mind that cut is KING. If the 1-1.05 ct diamond is a much better cut than the 1.2 ideal; it will likely look just as big visually as the 1.2 anyway.

Personally, I'd select the diamond with the best cut, especially where it means sacrificing only 15 points. In fact, I'd rather have a .80 ct., top-of-the-line cut diamond than a 1.2, less-well-cut diamond. I know others may feel differently, but that's just my two cents.

My vote is for cut!

 

[NewYorker]

Can you look at both side by side? That would be the best to decide which you like.
Since she changed her mind as to shape because she saw a princess cut in person and didn't like it then she doesn't sound like she'd know the difference between an H+A and just a really good cut diamond.
I'd go with the bigger one. I think .20 carats IS noticeable and either one will be a good size for her finger, but since EVERYONE seems to get a 1 ct now a days - it'll be nicer that she has a 1.2 carat.
(and this has nothing to do with the fact that I don't like the effect of H+A diamonds - give me a really good cut RB and I'm a happy camper).

 

[canadiangrrl]

I would see if I could view both diamonds side by side, and then make the call.

But if I were working with your budget, I'd buy the biggest G SI1 H&A I could afford. The vast majority of SI1's of that size that I've seen in person are eyeclean.

 

[dimonbob]

I should probably stay out of this but my own opinion is to go for the best cut. Yes, I work for Whiteflash but before there ever was a H&A diamond I was selling LK Ideal cuts which were the best cut diamond before the super ideal cuts came along.
Size in Texas and California are king but the other half of the country are not quite as flashy.
When I first came to Houston and before I worked for Whiteflash, I worked in a B&M Jewelry store here. We had a man and his very good looking intended come in to buy a diamond. She said to him, right in front of me that she wanted a diamond that was as big and expensive as his $130,000 car. I kept my mouth shut and the guy took the hook. If I was him, I would have left her standing there and walked. Her ring cost $128,000 plus Texas tax for a total of $138,560. I wonder if they are still together?

 

[RoughRider]

Thanks for your opinions everyone! Now even more stuff to consider ...

I guess I didn't study the tutorial that well. I was working on the assumption that H&A = better cut. Unfortunately, the Ideals I was looking at didn't have crown/pav listed so I couldn't run the HCA.

So it is possible for an AGS cut = 4 to be an H&A, and an AGS 000 to not be an H&A. In this case, the ideal cut would be "better cut" than the H&A?

btw, we haven't actually narrowed it down to 2 stones yet. We just switched from squarish shapes to RBs, so we're trying to get an idea of what we can afford. The "rough comparison" I made above was for what appeared to be slightly on the high-side "typical" prices.

Here is another question: Even if a H&A scores poorly on the HCA, won't it typically be priced higher than an equal carat/color/clarity ideal cut that doesn't show the patterns?

Dimonbob, I don't mind you as a vendor giving your opinion. When you say "best cut," do you mean H&A (as I originally thought when asking this question) or do you mean to run the HCA and see what scores closest to 0? I presume the latter is what aljdewey meant? And holy cow - a $138k ring? I wonder what the wedding cost!

One last story then it's bedtime ...
We had dinner at the mall so went back to the "Heartstar" (branded H&A) jeweler last night. We were looking at the H&A in the claw-type tweezers and asked to compare it with a non-H&A ideal cut. So the gal goes back to the safe, and comes back with the stone and lets us compare. Turns out the "ideal" she brought was 1/4 ct. smaller, I color, SI1 (the H&A was a F VS1 or thereabouts). Soooo, we tried but didn't get to compare "equal" H&A vs. ideal side by side ...
It was getting pretty late already so we didn't press the issue (I'm sure she would've brought out another ideal cut if we asked). We're going to more jewelers this weekend so hopefully we'll get our chance then.

Thanks again for all your help! If anyone else has opinions please share - we aren't close to making up our minds yet!

 

[fire&ice]

Don't blow your budget. Go w/ a larger G/VS2 stone w/ a good to very good make or save yourself some money & go w/ a 1c very good make.

You will notice the size significantly more than the cut. I have always expressed that cut is one's first priority; but, this board goes overboard on it.

HCA is a predictor. It helps weed out dogs. It considers stones that are normally out of "ideal" proportions. HCA is not an exact science and a final decision maker. The naked eye will not see much difference between a stone that scores a .6 & a stone that scores a 2.5. The margin of error is such.

At the end of the day, New Yorker & Canadagirl are spot on. See w/ your own eyes if the money is worth the difference to you.

Good luck.

 

[acanuck]

This does seem to be contrary to the 'mantra' on this site. It is nice to hear different opinions and it highlights the fact that everything's a compromise - unless you've got an umlimited budget of course !

 

[fire&ice]

A caveat, do what you feel is important. There are those who want their spec to say D/IF. Their eyes are not going to be able to *see* the money of the D/IF; but, they pay it anyway.

All parameters need to be weighed. There is an art to cutting. When can one's eye see a perceivable/discernable difference in that art? My large stone which rates somewhere in the 2-3 HCA is as sparkley to me as my smaller stone that rated very low - something like .5. That said, if you get a stone that rates in the 5+, one can probably see a noticeable difference; but, without seeing it, it can't be completely dismissed. But, I wouldn't waste my money having it shipped to me.

Again, I ask the question. When does the normal human eye see perceivable difference in cut? And, more importantly, beauty is *indeed* in the eye of the beholder.

Given the choice between a very good make 1.25 stone & an excellent ideal stone priced the same at 1c. I would choose the 1.25 stone. Or, if I didn't want to go larger, save the money.

perception vs money? Excellent vs very good
Very good vs good

While a point can be made that if a cutter polishes a stone to excellent & symmetry of excellent - attention has been paid to *this* stone. That said, I simply can not accept that a normal diamond wearer can see the difference between very good & excellent polish, good to excellent for that matter. Symmetry may be a bit more discernable - but not between very good to excellent.

As stated, I always put cut first. It *is* the art & beauty of a stone. But, super luper duper ideal is just not me given the fact they cost more. I'm not advocating dismissing cut. But, when does it become obsessive & the money is only in the paper & not in the beauty.

I'm often in the minority here. If a stone is priced the same, then the choice would be go w/ the better HCA scoring stone. But, when money is involved, I would consider my options. I'm always an advocate for seeing more than one stone in person.

At the end of the day, the choice is individual.

 

[caratgirl]

Fire & Ice, I'm with you all the way. Also feel like the minority here. If I had an unlimited budget, yes, I would go with D color VVS1, but there are compromises to be made.

I have a good, good GIA and an Ex, Ex GIA stone, and you know, the Ex one is cut better and does look about 15% better, but only if I study them. With the polish, can't really tell any difference, even with a loupe. I am more color sensitive, so I am happier with my F color stone, however, than with the J. Face up they look just about the same, but at other angles and in other lights, the J color 'bugs' me.

Also, I like my VS2 stone better than the SI2, cause I do look at stones from the side, and can see the one feather, while the VS2 is totally clean from the side as well. It may make a difference that they are both larger stones, 1.5 vs 1.90. I guess I wouldn't have as much chance to see a flaw if the stone was smaller.

Basically, I would recommend absolutely comparing two or more stones side by side. If you can get an Idealscope, you can double-check what your eyes are telling you, and can make a good decision.

My .02

 

[hoorray]

Go with the stone that calls out to you. All the various parameters create big trade offs, so set some ranges for the various parameters, and see what options you can find in your price range. Just know that she will look at this stone all day long, in all different lights, forever. So, big is good, but you should love the look of the stone itself. If you can compare a couple of stones side by side, that is best. Also, make sure you look at them in a variety of lights -- mostly not the jeweler's lights, where everything looks great.

good luck!

 

[RoughRider]

Thanks again for all your help!

I felt pretty "well read" prior to shopping for a diamond, but as we started to see actual stones, I realized that the differences between VVS/VS, D/F, etc, were a lot less clear cut to the eye than in my head.

One observation that we did make was that a 10 pt difference (in the 1.0 - 1.2 ct range) was noticeable to our eyes. However, I guess the cut makes a big difference in the diameter, as well.

Something that fire & ice said really stuck in my head:
"But, super luper duper ideal is just not me given the fact they cost more. I'm not advocating dismissing cut. But, when does it become obsessive & the money is only in the paper & not in the beauty."
I guess this is something we're going to have to figure out for ourselves after seeing a lot, lot more stones!

The search continues ... will keep you posted!

 

[dbretton]

If you have 2 stones in mind, look at them first-hand.

If you are searching for a general consensus, then you may want to also consult with people who are not 'cut-nuts', as many in this forum are.

If time is on your side and you are willing to do some leg work, then you should be able to find a really nice 1.2ct non-H&A that will be absolutely outstanding.

If you do not have the advantage of time and really want a lot of sparkle, then perhaps you should go with the 1.0ct H&A.

Somthing to keep in mind: The 1.26ct H&A I purchased was not much more than $7500, so finding a 1.2 H&A for $7500 is a very achievable goal.

Regards,
Dennis

 

[dbretton]

She and I change our minds about which is more important all the time - better performer or larger size? She is a size 5 so the 1 ct. doesn't look small on her finger.

I was hoping you folks could chime in with your personal preference between the 2 choices (we don't want to go down to a SI1). Kind of an informal poll.

Like you, I had stated that the lowest I wanted to go was VS2 at the worst.

Eye-clean diamonds are the goal for most people. Most SI1 diamonds are 100% eye clean. The one I purchased was an SI1. When I purchased it, I thought that the worst I could do was buy the diamond, not be satisfied, and return it. When it arrived, I had a difficult time finding the inclusion with a 10x loupe.

When I had the stone independently appraised, the appraiser said that the AGS was simply wrong with the rating, and said he believed the diamond was VS1, maybe VS2 at the worst.

For that matter, I originally bought a 1.0 H&A SI2, which I later returned (I wanted bigger sparkles).
All the inclusions were on the bottom of the diamond, and nothing could be seen from the top (with a 10x loupe).
I had used it as a measuring stick for other diamonds in local stores. When I brought it in, none of the salesmen believed me that it was an SI2, even after they examined it under a microscope. ... that is, until I told them to turn it upside down. Even then they were surprised how clean it was.

Something to keep in mind when shopping.

Regards,
Dennis

 

[fire&ice]

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On 8/29/2003 10:20:16 AM dbretton wrote:

If time is on your side and you are willing to do some leg work, then you should be able to find a really nice 1.2ct non-H&A that will be absolutely outstanding.

If you do not have the advantage of time and really want a lot of sparkle, then perhaps you should go with the 1.0ct H&A.


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I think this is sane advice.

Another thing to consider is your self confidence to pick a stone that sizzles in *your* eyes. I buy & sell for a living. Often, I have to make quick judgement calls based on my eye. Therefore, I am confident in this way.

There is comfort in buying (and subsequently paying more) in a "branded" (I use that term loosely) H&A stone.