Can you spot the inclusion??? :)

[John P]

Date: 9/18/2008 6:36:50 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Wow John! Thanks for your help. It is monumentally appreciated. Without sounding like a complete idiot here.... Im not quite sure all of your explanation makes sense to me. Other than the potentially alarming fact that this gentleman might be either misrepresenting the stone dimensions. Would a buyer like myself really notice a 58% table vs. even a 62% table?

In your honest opinion, knowing that grades mean very very little to us. And considering the budget, do you think it is worth it to give it a shot on this stone?

Not at all. You've shown a lot of initiative to come here and been diligent in follow-up.

LOL about making sense...it may help to understand that reputable jewelers typically pride themselves on extreme precision. Misinformation, whether accidental or intentional, raises eyebrows...even something trivial like saying 59% when the numbers given come out to 59.6%. Claiming it "faces up like a 1.50" is an old trick to sell shallow stones, but this stone is not terribly shallow by the dimensions you gave. In fact, it faces up like a 1.36 so why say it faces like a 1.50? The table discrepancy bothers me because this software is usually very accurate (and I believe it to be accurate here). If correct, the diamond in the photo is in a different make than the given numbers imply. That may not be "bad," but the majority of proportions & performance combinations that earn top grades from GIA and AGS have tables in the 54-58% range.

Without knowing the individual or the process he used I don't want to condemn the situation outright. That's why I said the measuring by hand may be part of the problem...or something else has been lost in translation.

Do I think it's worth a shot? You have made it clear that you just want a diamond to propose with, so I can't make that call. My best advice at this point is to not even think about the $2000. I think you should just consider whether it's worth $100 (appx) to you to call this diamond in and have a qualified independent appraiser tell you what it actually is. I would not think beyond that until the cards are on the table.

 

[swingirl]

Any chance you can return the setting and not be limited to finding a stone that's 1.25 or larger? You are really limiting yourself because $2000 budget is a bit off for 1.25-1.50 stones. Like WAY off!

 

[urseberry]

I agree with honey22. Everyone is being very nice, but your stone is one that the majority of posters on Pricescope would never even consider. It may in fact be a good value for what you're looking for, though. $2000 is not in the ballpark of what an excellent quality 1.3 carat stone should cost, so if you need something of that size, you'll have to make significant compromises in cut, color, and clarity.

 

[AprilBaby]

Looks like you are determined to buy no matter what we say but that inclusion would bother the heck out of me.

 

[kelpie]

I think the cut would bother me more than the inclusion. I just doesn't like lively to me, and I love the nice symmetry of a stone with arrows. The table looks big and funky. I'd go way down in color and up a bit in clarity. Just a few I found to give you an idea:

=362&src=loupe:2o8h065d]1.23 L vs2 5.6k
1.17 J SI1 5.2k
1.22 J SI2 4.8k

 

[arjunajane]

In light of the cut info that has been revealed, personally that would bother me more than the clarity even.
A well cut stone *can* mask the appearance of lower clarity, as it will sparkle really well.
As John has explained, either the jeweller has measured it incorrectly or, it is not as represented. And frankly the "faces up like a 1.5" is not true.
Ditto everyone else about the independent appraiser - I would probably move on from this one, but if you have to check it out make sure the return policy is in writing and use a recommended appraiser.

 

[lovegem]

I thought I saw two large white inclusions in the picture. I will say if you are certain that you can get a full refund on the stone, then by all means why not order the stone in and have a look yourself? When you receive it, view it under different lighting conditions. And please take it to an appraiser to have it appraised. Hope you''ve found yourself a good deal.

 

[rainydaze]

Date: 9/18/2008 6:22:07 PM
Author: John Pollard

That''s a bit strange. 7.22 x 4.30 would imply a 59.6% depth, not 59% (and 7.22 certainly does not face up like a 1.5ct). Curious - if it doesn''t have a grading report who assigned the ''Very Good'' cut grade?

I''m also surprised to hear 58% table. I''ve used this software application a number of times to judge table% and have been within 1% or so, even with slight tilt to the stone... Heights and angles are much harder to judge/match-up but table is usually pretty easy & accurate. I did some slight rotation to match the facet meet points and here is what''s indicated for a 62% table.

my thought exactly.... major red flag for me!

 

[Finally!]

Based on the information available, I can''t tell if this stone (two different vendors, same stone) would perform better than the one you''ve been offered, but at least you know there is another option that could meet your needs:


1.24 H SI3 60.4% 59% EGL - gd gd mb 6.88x6.93x4.17 $2043*SP USA Certed
1.24 H SI3 60.4% 59% EGL - gd gd mb 6.88-6.93x4.17 $2094*S Whiteflash

The price shown is special for Pricescope members.

The lab report is from EGL, but at least there is one.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 9/18/2008 5:48:21 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Im going to hit the 'buy' button here shortly.

Can anyone find any problems with these dimensions?? This is a 1.36 ct stone. Jeweler says...7.22mm x 4.30mm - Depth 59% - Table 58% - Girdle Thin to Med. Faceted - Culet None - Polish Very Good - Symmetry Very Good - Fluorescence None - Cut Grade Very Good.

Opinions?

yes, put on your track shoes and run away from this jeweler as fast as you can. how can he say... very good cut w/o a lab report? base on what?

another one of those.....don't usually sell to the public jewelers.

 

[Kelli]

I think it''s really nice that you want to get your gf something great! But please, please, please, do not buy this stone. The cut looks quite bad, to be frank. I''m sorry to sound harsh, but anyone will tell you that a "diamond is on fire" and sparkles like crazy. That is an extremely vague statement and really doesn''t mean anything, considering most diamonds will sparkle under jeweler''s lights. The cut looks pretty bad in the picture, and John has already confirmed that something is off. I wouldn''t buy it based on that alone, nevermind the obvious incluions. Also, this jeweler told you it faces up like a 1.5. No it doesn''t, it faces up like a 1.36. I know, because my diamond weighs 1.36. If a deal seems to good to be true, run for the hills! You can get your gf something stunning with your budget. Not necessarily huge, but beautiful and of great quality.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Okay everyone, I really appreciate all the constructive replies. And thank you for looking up some alternative stones for me!!!

As several people have stated, I need to make some major adjustments to my budget. I just want to clarify, that $2k is not my budget, I dont have a specific budget. I could theoretically spend up to about $9k on a stone at the moment. The issue is, that, we, as a couple have several priorities. I am trying to make the best decision I can for our future...financially included. If that means sacrificing on some stone clarity to catapult us ahead because of the other doors that are open having the cash available...then so be it. Please remember, that neither myself nor my girl have a discerning eye as to some of these finite differences in stones. Differences that make a HUGE price tag jump. Going from a SI2 to a VVS means new hardwood floors, lol!

I also really liked the idea of going with an "upgrade" store, and enlarging as the budget grew. However, she told me once the story of why her mothers ring was so basic. She stated that her parents got engaged when they were in their early 20''s. The budget for them was very very small. Since then, her husband (My girlfriends father) has asked to finally put in a nice stone. Her mom has emphatically said no. She loves the romance and memory of how that ring stands for where they were at in there lives at that time. Very stupid, very broke, and very in love. That being stated...I know what I buy now, will almost assuredly be what stays.

Long story short, I felt confident enough with some of your replies, especially Johns'', to give it a shot and purchase the stone late last night. It is to be shipped to me today. Jeweler said I would have it by monday or tuesday. I DID receive the 7 day money back guarantee in writing before doing so. I feel I have nothing to lose here. SO, I will follow up with you guys as soon as I know something.
Thanks to all once more!!!

 

[Lorelei]

I hope the stone is to your liking - get that appraisal should you decide you want to keep it before the 7 days are up!

 

[Sharon101]

Hi, just wanted to agree with all the advice you have recieved. The diamond industry pricing actually works pretty well to acurately reflect the diamond being purchased. It is very hard to find a true undervalued diamond and impossible to find a decent diamond over 1 carat for $2000.

I would say that the diamond in question is definately not jem quality. Its probably PK also which is much lower than Si1 for the price you have been quoted.

 

[shel]

Actually, I''m somewhat glad you didn''t listen to the advice and bought the stone anyway. In this case, PS''ers'' priorities were not your priorities. Hope you and your girlfriend enjoy the ring.

 

[John P]

Date: 9/19/2008 12:07:41 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Okay everyone, I really appreciate all the constructive replies. And thank you for looking up some alternative stones for me!!!

As several people have stated, I need to make some major adjustments to my budget. I just want to clarify, that $2k is not my budget, I dont have a specific budget. I could theoretically spend up to about $9k on a stone at the moment. The issue is, that, we, as a couple have several priorities. I am trying to make the best decision I can for our future...financially included. If that means sacrificing on some stone clarity to catapult us ahead because of the other doors that are open having the cash available...then so be it. Please remember, that neither myself nor my girl have a discerning eye as to some of these finite differences in stones. Differences that make a HUGE price tag jump. Going from a SI2 to a VVS means new hardwood floors, lol!

I also really liked the idea of going with an ''upgrade'' store, and enlarging as the budget grew. However, she told me once the story of why her mothers ring was so basic. She stated that her parents got engaged when they were in their early 20''s. The budget for them was very very small. Since then, her husband (My girlfriends father) has asked to finally put in a nice stone. Her mom has emphatically said no. She loves the romance and memory of how that ring stands for where they were at in there lives at that time. Very stupid, very broke, and very in love. That being stated...I know what I buy now, will almost assuredly be what stays.

Long story short, I felt confident enough with some of your replies, especially Johns'', to give it a shot and purchase the stone late last night. It is to be shipped to me today. Jeweler said I would have it by monday or tuesday. I DID receive the 7 day money back guarantee in writing before doing so. I feel I have nothing to lose here. SO, I will follow up with you guys as soon as I know something.
Thanks to all once more!!!

Ok Mike. Caveat emptor on this one. Be sure the appraiser you involve is a true independent, not one connected with selling gems or jewelry. Considering your priorities, getting the independent expert''s take on actual valuation of the diamond might top your list. Good luck and let us know what transpires.

 

[motownmama]

do keep us in the loop - I hope it looks pretty. What kiind of a setting do you have?

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 9/19/2008 6:25:09 PM
Author: shel
Actually, I'm somewhat glad you didn't listen to the advice and bought the stone anyway. In this case, PS'ers' priorities were not your priorities. Hope you and your girlfriend enjoy the ring.

Shel, you have worded your response very well & this side of the debate needed to be addressed. It is so true that often PS`ers priorities are very different to the various diamond buyers in the real world!!!!!

I myself an an example because I got very firm advice saying not to buy my diamond based on cut etc. And as it turned out, I get many genuine compliments and lots of feedback (even some moke fainting), enough to let me know that most people think its the bees knees!!!!!

So it is true that in the real world people are far less fussy than on this site.

But, to be very honest, we are in the industry and even the best wholesale price would not yeild a pretty diamond (Im talking low - average, garden cut variety, that are still lovely in their own right) in that price range. I personally would be scarred at what the diamond would look like at that price bracket. And I am not even talking about comparing with the best, but only the average.

I would be very surprised and in disbelief to find out otherwise because I know what even the lowest quality (that still look good) cost....and you would be hard pressed to find anything below $3000 a carat (for 1 carat plus stones) wholesale for `pretty` but at the lower end of cut, clarity & color.

But we shall see because it may be that we all have a different idea of what is acceptable!

 

[MMT]

Please be sure and keep us posted

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:06:40 PM
Author:Peanut Butter
Hello everyone,

My name is Mike. I've been a lurker on here for about 3 months now. I come in usually once a day for about an hour. Im not new to the forums scene, just new to this one. I have gained an absolute wealth of knowledge on diamonds thus far and am already grateful for all of you and this site.

I decided to finally join up today so I could get your opinions. My FF and I (like how im picking up your lingo? lol) are planning to be engaged in the near future. She doesnt know it yet...but it should be around Christmas. I have very specific wants when it comes to the engagement ring I give to her. We, however are both trying to save as much money as possible now to help make a needed addition to the house. Luckily for me, she is such a wonderful woman and has more than reasonable expectations in the ring. Its me and my ego that push for more.

Anyway, I have done research on many stones including all man mades, and even white gem stones. I have decided that I would rather get a real diamond with lesser quality for now, than do anything else. I found a stone that a jeweler has told me is a great great bargain (I believe it as well though). I have a two friends that have dealt with him and been very happy. He typically only deals to other dealers so NONE of his stones have been certified. He does however offer a 7 day retun policy for me to do what I wish to confirm his claims on the stone.

He presented me with something today that I really like the sound of.
Specs: 1.36 Ct, F color, I1 clarity, good polish, no fluorescence. He does not have any other specs to give me as it has not been officially graded. He does tell me that the inclusion is half clear and half white with NO black whatsoever, and that from the top it blends in very nicely.

He stated' The stone is on fire. It is not lumpy and spreads like a 1&1/2ct. There is a white feather approx. 5/8 of the way accoss the crown that blends in very nicely with the brilliance and sparkle of the stone and at most angles and lighting is invisible to the unaided eye. There is no carbon or dark inclusions what-so-ever. Very white, clear with a excellent cut for maximum sparkle, and the diamond is extremely lively. Not at all hazy as well. SI clarity with this cut and color would wholesale approx. 3 times the price'

Now, heres the best part...He's offering me this stone at $2000. What do you think? Attached is an actual picture of the stone at 30x magnification. Sorry for the extremely long first post.

CLIFF NOTES
CAN YOU SPOT THE INCLUSION IN THE STONE PICTURED BELOW????

Before reading the rest of the posts in this thread I want to make my reply.

Yes, easily, but this picture is at way more than 10 power magnification so I should be able to see it. This inclusion will also be visible in normal viewing, but not easily. It may in fact require up close viewing to see, and it will not stand out.

The cutting is not steller, but for 2k it is indeed a deal if it is truly an F color.

Gosh, I hate to even say it, but this might actually be an hones eBay seller. So hard to know, but if he has a good return policy it is worth a look.

Wink

 

[motownmama]

did you order this? I''m following your saga.

 

[Peanut Butter]

OK....I received the stone this morning. I was both pleasantly surprised...as well as I had my fears come to fruition. The stoen cut was very nice (according to my eye), the color was phenomenal, and the size was perfect. The inclusion, however, was just too noticeable.

If you turned the stone in a clockwise direction "twelve hours of the day" in the circle, I could hardly see the inclusion. The other 12, I could barely see the diamond. The inclusion was VERY noticeable, and actually looked like a crack underneath the surface of the table...and just under the surface. I have no real diamond experience, but it seemed like it could be a durability issue as well. I didn''t even leave the post office parking lot. I packaged it right back up and sent it back...all within a half an hour. Now, I just need to make sure I get the credit back in my account.

I was thinking of you guys though, so I brought my camera and took several pictures. I will get them uploaded tonight when I get the cord I need.

Soooooooooooooo, back to the drawing board. Anyone have any insight for me? I know I have a tall order. But what if I were to up the budget to $3000? I need the stone to be in the neighborhood of 1.25 ct, and I need it to face up eye clean. (I know, I know)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/22/2008 1:55:44 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
OK....I received the stone this morning. I was both pleasantly surprised...as well as I had my fears come to fruition. The stoen cut was very nice (according to my eye), the color was phenomenal, and the size was perfect. The inclusion, however, was just too noticeable.

If you turned the stone in a clockwise direction 'twelve hours of the day' in the circle, I could hardly see the inclusion. The other 12, I could barely see the diamond. The inclusion was VERY noticeable, and actually looked like a crack underneath the surface of the table...and just under the surface. I have no real diamond experience, but it seemed like it could be a durability issue as well. I didn't even leave the post office parking lot. I packaged it right back up and sent it back...all within a half an hour. Now, I just need to make sure I get the credit back in my account.

I was thinking of you guys though, so I brought my camera and took several pictures. I will get them uploaded tonight when I get the cord I need.

Soooooooooooooo, back to the drawing board. Anyone have any insight for me? I know I have a tall order. But what if I were to up the budget to $3000? I need the stone to be in the neighborhood of 1.25 ct, and I need it to face up eye clean. (I know, I know)

Too tall.....I would lower the size, keeping cut most important. This one is at Winfield's, I'd call and ask about it. 3145.00 (not sure if there's a discount with that)

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=63&lang=eng&sid%5b%5d=443&src=loupe

 

[glitterata]

Date: 9/22/2008 1:55:44 PM
Author: Peanut Butter

Soooooooooooooo, back to the drawing board. Anyone have any insight for me? I know I have a tall order. But what if I were to up the budget to $3000? I need the stone to be in the neighborhood of 1.25 ct, and I need it to face up eye clean. (I know, I know)

It can''t be done. Pick a different setting and get a smaller diamond. Or use a fake instead of a real diamond. Or use a different gemstone, such as a sapphire, garnet, aquamarine.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Okay, so tell me this then. In the REAL world...not using a magnifying glass, not using a gemologists eye...What is the average lowest clarity you can go and a stone still face up mostly eye clean? SI1? SI2?

 

[glitterata]

Depends what you mean by mostly. Depends who graded the diamond.

If it''s AGS or GIA, many SI2s and some I1s will be "mostly" eye clean, meaning either you can''t see anything without a magnifying glass, or you can but you have to look hard.

 

[Lorelei]

I am sorry it didn't work out, but it is for the best you sent it back, at least you have seen the diamond for yourself so you won't be forever wondering.

As to how low can you go, it does depend - I have a 2 ct I1 pear which is completely eyeclean except for a feather tucked away on the side, not all I1's are created equal so you need to take each on an individual basis. I would definitely enquire about the diamond Ellen posted.

 

[glitterata]

To give you an example of how clean an I1 CAN look, here''s my .73 I1 Crafted by Infinity, from Wink Jones:

More pictures in this thread:

.73 Infinity thread

and this:

OEC, transition cut, Infinity thread

 

[Ellen]

There are too many variables for a cut and dry answer.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/22/2008 2:06:16 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/22/2008 1:55:44 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
OK....I received the stone this morning. I was both pleasantly surprised...as well as I had my fears come to fruition. The stoen cut was very nice (according to my eye), the color was phenomenal, and the size was perfect. The inclusion, however, was just too noticeable.

If you turned the stone in a clockwise direction ''twelve hours of the day'' in the circle, I could hardly see the inclusion. The other 12, I could barely see the diamond. The inclusion was VERY noticeable, and actually looked like a crack underneath the surface of the table...and just under the surface. I have no real diamond experience, but it seemed like it could be a durability issue as well. I didn''t even leave the post office parking lot. I packaged it right back up and sent it back...all within a half an hour. Now, I just need to make sure I get the credit back in my account.

I was thinking of you guys though, so I brought my camera and took several pictures. I will get them uploaded tonight when I get the cord I need.

Soooooooooooooo, back to the drawing board. Anyone have any insight for me? I know I have a tall order. But what if I were to up the budget to $3000? I need the stone to be in the neighborhood of 1.25 ct, and I need it to face up eye clean. (I know, I know)

Too tall.....I would lower the size, keeping cut most important. This one is at Winfield''s, I''d call and ask about it. 3145.00 (not sure if there''s a discount with that)

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=63&lang=eng&sid%5b%5d=443&src=loupe

Ellen, thank you for the recommendation. It is appreciated.

In the interest of respecting our supplicant''s wishes I feel it fair to point out that it is smaller than her stated size range, although not greatly. To my eyes it is eye clean to all but the closest scrutiny.

Wink