Can you spot the inclusion??? :)

[Peanut Butter]

Hello everyone,

My name is Mike. I''ve been a lurker on here for about 3 months now. I come in usually once a day for about an hour. Im not new to the forums scene, just new to this one. I have gained an absolute wealth of knowledge on diamonds thus far and am already grateful for all of you and this site.

I decided to finally join up today so I could get your opinions. My FF and I (like how im picking up your lingo? lol) are planning to be engaged in the near future. She doesnt know it yet...but it should be around Christmas. I have very specific wants when it comes to the engagement ring I give to her. We, however are both trying to save as much money as possible now to help make a needed addition to the house. Luckily for me, she is such a wonderful woman and has more than reasonable expectations in the ring. Its me and my ego that push for more.

Anyway, I have done research on many stones including all man mades, and even white gem stones. I have decided that I would rather get a real diamond with lesser quality for now, than do anything else. I found a stone that a jeweler has told me is a great great bargain (I believe it as well though). I have a two friends that have dealt with him and been very happy. He typically only deals to other dealers so NONE of his stones have been certified. He does however offer a 7 day retun policy for me to do what I wish to confirm his claims on the stone.

He presented me with something today that I really like the sound of.
Specs: 1.36 Ct, F color, I1 clarity, good polish, no fluorescence. He does not have any other specs to give me as it has not been officially graded. He does tell me that the inclusion is half clear and half white with NO black whatsoever, and that from the top it blends in very nicely.

He stated" The stone is on fire. It is not lumpy and spreads like a 1&1/2ct. There is a white feather approx. 5/8 of the way accoss the crown that blends in very nicely with the brilliance and sparkle of the stone and at most angles and lighting is invisible to the unaided eye. There is no carbon or dark inclusions what-so-ever. Very white, clear with a excellent cut for maximum sparkle, and the diamond is extremely lively. Not at all hazy as well. SI clarity with this cut and color would wholesale approx. 3 times the price"

Now, heres the best part...He''s offering me this stone at $2000. What do you think? Attached is an actual picture of the stone at 30x magnification. Sorry for the extremely long first post.

CLIFF NOTES
CAN YOU SPOT THE INCLUSION IN THE STONE PICTURED BELOW????

 

[Lorelei]

Welcome PB!


I can see the inclusion in this diamond, my eyes went straight to it - it may be more visible in some lights than in others, I would perhaps increase the clarity to an SI grade as you could find a cleaner diamond that way. Also the price is incredibly cheap for a diamond of that size, it is up to you of course, but I would recommend looking at some GIA or AGS graded diamonds and concentrate on the cut quality as that is what will get you a pretty diamond, even if you have to go smaller. Of course you know your GF best, but she might well prefer an eyeclean diamond, the diamond with a visible inclusion may not appeal to her for her engagement ring....

 

[Peanut Butter]

Thanks for the reply. I agree, I think I know what Im looking at when I say I can see the inclusion. Its at about "2 o''clock" on the table, right?

Heres the thing though...Neither of us cares about grading reports, or resale value in anyway. We both just want a pretty stone that means a lot to us without sidetracking our other financial goals. So, money is a huge factor right now. I would go with a smaller stone, but the setting Ive already purchased commands at least a 1.25 stone to not look "off".

Since this picture is under 30x magnification. Truly how noticeable do you think this will be once mounted and looking at it with the naked eye?

 

[Circe]

Sorry, PB, I''m with Lorelei on this ... the stone is an honest I1, and not eye-clean. It looks like a very pretty stone for a pendant, but I''d be leery about using it for an e-ring. If you know your GF would prefer size above all else, it might be worth a shot, but alternately, maybe you could try buying through a vendor with an upgrade policy instead: you could start out with something a little smaller but without any obvious inclusions and work your way up. It sounds like you''ve put a *lot* of thought into the process, so kudos to you, and good luck on finding a really awesome stone!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:24:36 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Thanks for the reply. I agree, I think I know what Im looking at when I say I can see the inclusion. Its at about '2 o'clock' on the table, right?

Heres the thing though...Neither of us cares about grading reports, or resale value in anyway. We both just want a pretty stone that means a lot to us without sidetracking our other financial goals. So, money is a huge factor right now. I would go with a smaller stone, but the setting Ive already purchased commands at least a 1.25 stone to not look 'off'.

Since this picture is under 30x magnification. Truly how noticeable do you think this will be once mounted and looking at it with the naked eye?

Yes that is what I am seeing at around 2 o'clock like a white smudge running across the top middle of the diamond to the edge, also I see what looks to me like a sharp line at 2 o'clock, I would check that out very carefully to see if it is on the surface of the diamond. It is hard to say for sure, but sometimes in my experience inclusions like this may not be too noticeable in some lights, but can pop out in others. If you like the diamond and feel it is worth spending the 2k on and you don't plan to resell or trade it in, then that is up to you of course, if you don't want to go with a lab graded diamond which is smaller and higher clarity - what I would suggest you do is to view the diamond in person and check it out in as many different lights as possible, that way you can see how visible the inclusion is likely to be. As to how visible the inclusion could be depends on various factors, I would think it is the type that once you know where it is, that it could be quite easy to find it again once you know where to look. Then if you want to pursue this diamond, make the sale final on a favourable report from an independant appraiser within the return period, and to make sure the feather isn't a possible durability issue, or negotiate for a bit longer so you can get the rock checked out. Here is a tool you can use to find an appraiser in your area and I strongly recommend you get an expert unbiased opinion on this diamond before the sale is final.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[:)]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:24:36 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Thanks for the reply. I agree, I think I know what Im looking at when I say I can see the inclusion. Its at about ''2 o''clock'' on the table, right?

Yes

Heres the thing though...Neither of us cares about grading reports, or resale value in anyway. We both just want a pretty stone that means a lot to us without sidetracking our other financial goals. So, money is a huge factor right now. I would go with a smaller stone, but the setting Ive already purchased commands at least a 1.25 stone to not look ''off''.

Since this picture is under 30x magnification. Truly how noticeable do you think this will be once mounted and looking at it with the naked eye?

Why don''t you go look at it with your eyes to see if you find it acceptable for your needs. Also you say the stone is an F I1 but hasn''t been graded yet - did the jeweler deem it that grade? Is a grading report pending?

 

[Peanut Butter]

Hey there,

This jeweler is about 200 miles from me back in my hometown. Yes, I could go to see it, but if he is promising a 7 day return, Id rather not need to take time off work to go in person.

And yes, the grades are what HE claims they are. (He says he has been buying and reselling for over 30 years, and that 95% of his business is selling to other jewelers. His turn around time is fast so he doesn''t tie up his stones to be graded himself...rather lets the purchaser do so. He says his volume is high and profit is small, so it would be a waste of his time to grade while in his possession)

 

[Peanut Butter]

Good info, thanks!

Assuming I lie the stone once I see it in person...and assuming I can get one of these jewelers to at least confirm that it IS a diamond...and with no crazy flaws Im unaware of. What would I need (documentation wise) to get this insured?

Is an official grading typically needed?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:53:08 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Good info, thanks!

Assuming I lie the stone once I see it in person...and assuming I can get one of these jewelers to at least confirm that it IS a diamond...and with no crazy flaws Im unaware of. What would I need (documentation wise) to get this insured?

Is an official grading typically needed?

An appraiser can give you a written appraisal which you can use to insure the diamond, tell the appraiser you would like the info to insure the diamond and they can give you what you need. Again I recommend you get an appraisal on this diamond before the sale is final.

I just noticed, either the inclusion is reflecting at 8 o'clock or there is another similar one.

 

[geckodani]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:28:14 PM
Author: Circe
Sorry, PB, I''m with Lorelei on this ... the stone is an honest I1, and not eye-clean. It looks like a very pretty stone for a pendant, but I''d be leery about using it for an e-ring. If you know your GF would prefer size above all else, it might be worth a shot, but alternately, maybe you could try buying through a vendor with an upgrade policy instead: you could start out with something a little smaller but without any obvious inclusions and work your way up. It sounds like you''ve put a *lot* of thought into the process, so kudos to you, and good luck on finding a really awesome stone!

I''m with Circe on this one... I found the inclusion quite quickly and I suck at that sort of thing.

 

[mommy2iz]

i also see the inclusion easily. i definitely think you need to see it with your own eyes before making a decision. i recently purchased a stone sight unseen with an inclusion similar, but smaller, to this stone. it is not clearly visible unless it is in direct sunlight and you are holding the stone at a certain angle very close to your eyes. only one person has been able to find the inclusion so far. the sparkle and fire is amazing, and ultimately the reason i chose to keep it. i suggest you verify the return policy, and go from there. you could always purchase a better quality stone from a vendor with an upgrade policy now, and save your setting for that upgrade. best of luck to you!

 

[John P]

In defense of the inclusion, I suggest putting a ruler up to the screen and seeing how 7.4mm (appx diameter of the diamond) compares to the size of the magnified photo. I concur that it's probably visible, but it's really "in our faces" here.

With that said - and welcome to PS Mike - there are a couple of things I'd point out that have nothing to do with clarity. First, your jeweler has told you this 1.36 ct faces up like a 1.50 (appx 7.45mm). That's a concern, since a well-cut 1.36 ct diamond spreads near 7.2mm. With a table near 62%, estimated from the photo, this diamond would need to have a knife-edge girdle, undesirable crown & pavilion angles or both to spread that way. If you can ask him the table, depth and dimensions in mm it will be helpful. These can be calculated by hand.

Regardless, if you decide to go forward with the purchase it's a no-brainer to me to spend a little extra (likely around 5%) on a qualified independent appraiser - one who does not sell gemstones or jewelry - to verify the grades & cut quality and give an opinion on valuation.

 

[Peanut Butter]

John,

Superb information!! I hadnt considered that aspect as of yet. I just emailed the jeweler and asked for the depth and dimensions. I will report back here as soon as I get them, and would truly appreciate your insight when you get a minute.

I know that I''m not buying a top quality investment grade diamond here...nor do I expect to receive one. I just want something that is obviously very white in color, has no deficiencies in sparkle...and has no major inclusions visible to the naked eye. And all I really care about there is the mounted...from the topside view. Me and the girl are extremely reasonable with expectations!

Thanks John!

 

[Peanut Butter]

Mommy,

Thats comforting. If it takes that much effort to see the inclusion in the stone Im looking at...then FINE by me. In fact, that sounds like exactly what Im looking for! Completing the much needed addition to the house is so so so much more important to the both of us than some small imperfections that take magnification to easily see. Thanks!

 

[vslover]

I can see it...I''d go for a higher clarity stone. Sorry.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/18/2008 4:16:23 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Mommy,

Thats comforting. If it takes that much effort to see the inclusion in the stone Im looking at...then FINE by me. In fact, that sounds like exactly what Im looking for! Completing the much needed addition to the house is so so so much more important to the both of us than some small imperfections that take magnification to easily see. Thanks!

I think you really need to see this stone in person Mike before you can determine if the inclusion is going to be acceptable, we have seen it many times here that even a tiny inclusion can drive some folk nuts - maybe you aren't that type of person and the inclusion might be ok, but I think it is a judgement call you can only make when you can examine the stone in person as it is quite likely you will be able to see the inclusion/s with your naked eye. Also make sure you check out that mark at 2 o'clock which looks like a scratch across the diamond, I could be wrong but make sure it isn't a surface reaching inclusion. As to the cut quality, it again would be best for you to check the diamond out in person, if it doesn't sparkle and shine then it may not appeal to you - I don't want to sound like a naysayer, just trying to give you the best advice I can.

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Date: 9/18/2008 2:59:32 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 9/18/2008 2:53:08 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Good info, thanks!

Assuming I lie the stone once I see it in person...and assuming I can get one of these jewelers to at least confirm that it IS a diamond...and with no crazy flaws Im unaware of. What would I need (documentation wise) to get this insured?

Is an official grading typically needed?

An appraiser can give you a written appraisal which you can use to insure the diamond, tell the appraiser you would like the info to insure the diamond and they can give you what you need. Again I recommend you get an appraisal on this diamond before the sale is final.

I just noticed, either the inclusion is reflecting at 8 o''clock or there is another similar one.

I am seeing this as well.
I think that this is a stone that I would want to see in person before making any decisions. I agree that the picture is quite magnified, but I would want to know just how visible the inclusions are to the naked eye.

 

[LGK]

If you're looking for an I clarity that would still sparkle, have you checked http://www.winkjones.com? He tends to get some beautifully cut I1 clarities, and also some low color ideal cuts.

I would worry the most about the cut on this stone you've picked out. If you are looking for sparkle that's the crucial thing. If low clarity isn't worrisome to you, that's cool. I don't think this stone is likely to be eyeclean though, if that's what you're hoping for... by definition, few I1s are. It does look like there's two significant inclusions too...

I do think you need to see this stone in person, and also look at a few ideal cuts in person, before you decide to spend the $. You could always save the setting you already have for an upgrade sometime down the line, or set it with a colored stone for a nice prezzie sometime.

Good luck!

 

[Peanut Butter]

Okay John,

I just got this reply from him...

"Hello. No problem. 7.22mm x 4.30mm - Depth 59% - Table 58% - Girdle Thin to Med. Faceted - Culet None - Polish Very Good - Symmetry Very Good - Fluorescence None - Cut Grade Very Good. Thank you!"

What do you think??!?!?

 

[Peanut Butter]

Hey Loreili,


I 100% agree that I need to see the stone in person before feeling completely confident about it. I just wanted to gather some opinions from you guys since most of you on here are 1000x more versed and knowledgeable in this department than I. I just got a reply on the dimensions of the stone (listed above), and wanted to get an answer about that since John Pollard mentioned needing it. I will most likely buy it since this jewelers return policy seems pretty legit.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/18/2008 4:59:22 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Hey Loreili,


I 100% agree that I need to see the stone in person before feeling completely confident about it. I just wanted to gather some opinions from you guys since most of you on here are 1000x more versed and knowledgeable in this department than I. I just got a reply on the dimensions of the stone (listed above), and wanted to get an answer about that since John Pollard mentioned needing it. I will most likely buy it since this jewelers return policy seems pretty legit.

I understand, and I really hope you will be pleasantly surprised with the diamond and it all works out!

 

[Peanut Butter]

Im going to hit the "buy" button here shortly.

Can anyone find any problems with these dimensions?? This is a 1.36 ct stone. Jeweler says...7.22mm x 4.30mm - Depth 59% - Table 58% - Girdle Thin to Med. Faceted - Culet None - Polish Very Good - Symmetry Very Good - Fluorescence None - Cut Grade Very Good.

Opinions?

 

[swingirl]

Sounds like it's a go. Hope it all works out for you.

 

[sparxs111]

little shallow for me, but sounds like you want it anyway. and you''re also missing another face up dimmension. Usually ex...7.23width x7.25width (different orientation) x4... height. Good luck, and enjoy it.

 

[JulieN]

So he's trying to tell you it faces up like a 1.5? Well, it doesn't.

I wouldn't do it.

 

[honey22]

There is something majorly off with this stone! I think everyone is being rather nice about it, but honestly, you can do a lot better. The price is ridiculously low - there should be warning bells ringing in your head!!!!

If someone offered you a 2008 ferrari, brand new, mint condition for $5k you would be running in the opposite direction as YOU KNOW it''s just too good to be true. You get what you pay for.

Would you rather a smaller gorgeous sparkly stunning diamond, or a larger lifeless stone with obvious inclusions? Do a quick search around the pics here and you will see what a nice stone looks like.

You mentioned your ego requires you to get a bigger stone and I understand that, but you can''t expect a well cut stone of that size with such a small budget, something has got to give, size or quality, or the budget increased - will your gf be happy with a larger poor quality stone? Or would she be wishing you had have gone quality over quantity and bought something that looks really nice?

You can purchase from WF or GOG - they have great upgrade policies, so in a few years when you are more financial, you can upgrade that stone/setting to a larger stone if you want. You havn''t lost your money as you can trade the original stone in and use that money towards her ''dream ring''.

 

[John P]

Date: 9/18/2008 4:53:23 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Okay John,

I just got this reply from him...

'Hello. No problem. 7.22mm x 4.30mm - Depth 59% - Table 58% - Girdle Thin to Med. Faceted - Culet None - Polish Very Good - Symmetry Very Good - Fluorescence None - Cut Grade Very Good. Thank you!'

What do you think??!?!?

That's a bit strange. 7.22 x 4.30 would imply a 59.6% depth, not 59% (and 7.22 certainly does not face up like a 1.5ct). Curious - if it doesn't have a grading report who assigned the 'Very Good' cut grade?

I'm also surprised to hear 58% table. I've used this software application a number of times to judge table% and have been within 1% or so, even with slight tilt to the stone... Heights and angles are much harder to judge/match-up but table is usually pretty easy & accurate. I did some slight rotation to match the facet meet points and here is what's indicated for a 62% table.

 

[John P]

Keeping the same tilt I reduced the table to 58%. Unless I am off here (and to err is human) it doesn't look possible for this to be a 58% table, as you can see the facet strays outside both N and S on the photo, outlined in green.

 

[John P]

Date: 9/18/2008 4:59:22 PM
Author: Peanut Butter
Hey Loreili,

I 100% agree that I need to see the stone in person before feeling completely confident about it. I just wanted to gather some opinions from you guys since most of you on here are 1000x more versed and knowledgeable in this department than I. I just got a reply on the dimensions of the stone (listed above), and wanted to get an answer about that since John Pollard mentioned needing it. I will most likely buy it since this jewelers return policy seems pretty legit.

There is a missing dimension (as sparxs111 mentioned) but it won't change anything radically here. Maybe there is a reasonable explanation for the discrepancies, particularly if he's measuring by hand, but some of the info is contradictory so - without impugning anyone - I do think there are warning bells here.

I suggest you definitely use an independent appraiser if you plan to go forward. It would not hurt to get the return policy in writing. I'm interested in what you decide to do and how it turns out, so let us know.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Wow John! Thanks for your help. It is monumentally appreciated. Without sounding like a complete idiot here.... Im not quite sure all of your explanation makes sense to me. Other than the potentially alarming fact that this gentleman might be either misrepresenting the stone dimensions. Would a buyer like myself really notice a 58% table vs. even a 62% table?

In your honest opinion, knowing that grades mean very very little to us. And considering the budget, do you think it is worth it to give it a shot on this stone?