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Can you buy a round based on specs?

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32degrees

Rough_Rock
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I searched high and low, noticed a thread from 2007 that listed a few etailers like Whiteflash, Excel, and GoG. Are these e-tailers still recommended?\

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-online-sellers-would-you-recommend-for-buying-sight-unseen.55077/

Also, can I choose a round brilliant online based on GIA specs? I am in the market for an engagement ring, and was hoping to get a round with specs similar to these:

1.2ct
G color
VS2
. Report: GIA
. Shape: Round
. Carat: 1.20
. Depth %: 61.6
. Table %: 58
. Girdle: TN-TK
. Measurements: 6.74-6.80X4.17
. Polish: Excellent
. Symmetry: Very Good
. Culet: None
. Fluorescence: None
Are these good numbers for a $6300.00 diamond?

Sorry for not contributing on my first post, but instead, inquiring. I hope to contribute as I move through the process better. The FAQ was useful (I even learned about carob seeds :)) in helping me choose even this diamond above. I think I know where I''m willing to compromise, but still appreciate the feedback!
 
If you have enough information (you don't currently) then you can purchase a diamond off of the specifications if you understand the data and are working with a vendor who actually evaluates the diamonds that they sell because they are then able to answer questions about optical symmetry, visual performance, visibility of inclusions, etc. which are viable concerns.

The article Laboratory Cut Grades what the report does not show is an excellent explanation of why the additional data is important and why the cut grades provided by the laboratories are not sufficient.
 
Thanks Todd and Jet!

Though diamonds 2, 6, and 8 apealed to me most, the only spec that threw me was the SI on number 6 I believe. Otherwise, the specs for the three were fairly close. Tables of 57, Depths of 61, Ideal P&S, similar proportions/dimensions, etc. I suppose that I'd be happy with any of those 3, though they are probably out of my price range given the VVS specs on two of them (all else being about equal).

The problem is, if I buy a diamond, it is going to be something that I find appealing, but not always the recipient. Therefore, given very good to excellent specs, which I believe were posted above given the price, would you guys feel confident that I'd locate a diamond that would please most people? Thanks again!

I'l check the other providers as well, but I wanted a set of numbers to begin with so I can narrow their search. That's why I posed the original specs and price. IThanks for recommending the Pavillion and Crown data Jet!
 
Ok, so, does this sound better? I just want to make it easier to round down to a grouping that will be suitable when I contact the vendors.

Budget: $6500
1.10 - 1.25ct
Color: F-H
Clarity: VS1-VS2
Table: 56-62
Depth: 58-62
Symmetry: VG- Ideal
Polish: Excellent -Ideal
Culet: None, medium
Fluorescence: None
Pavillion angle: 40-41
Crown angle: 34-34.5

Thanks!

 
I would use this chart as a guide to finding a well cut round.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!


As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

From expert John Pollard.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.


GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).


 
There are many diamond sleuths on PS. Would you like some of us to make some recommendations for you based on those preferences?
 
With the acknowledgment that I''m known for being a "bit precise" or "particular" with regards to the proportions of the diamond, I will offer a tighter range of measurements based upon my personal preference:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to slightly thick, preferably faceted or polished
Culet: GIA None or AGS Pointed
Polish: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Symmetry: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal

That said, there are other combinations of crown and pavilion angle that work, however they take a bit more thought and are not as reliable. Of course, you need to realize that the crown and pavilion angle measurements listed on the lab reports are merely average measurements and thus it is important to obtain a Sarin | OGI | Helium report (any of those options) showing the individual facet-by-facet measurements of the diamond which is what those average measurements are based upon and avoid diamonds where the spread between the high and low measurements is broad - in other words an average pavilion angle of 40.8 degrees could be the result of a low of 40.6 and a high of 41.0 degrees which would be fantastic - or - it could be the result of a low of 39.8 and a high of 41.8 (which would make me faint, but you get the idea). The tighter the range between the high and low measurements, the better the visual performance of the diamond is likely to be.

Then you have to consider the type, location and extent of the inclusions within the diamond... Personally, I tend to avoid diamonds with twinning wisps, knots, cavities and extensive feathers or stacks of small feathers, but others on the forum will tell you that they are nothing to worry about and they might be correct too... Like I said, I''m kind of particular but if you''re asking for the magic formula this will put you on the right path.
 
Date: 5/28/2009 3:40:25 PM
Author: 32degrees
Thanks Todd and Jet!

Though diamonds 2, 6, and 8 apealed to me most, the only spec that threw me was the SI on number 6 I believe. Otherwise, the specs for the three were fairly close. Tables of 57, Depths of 61, Ideal P&S, similar proportions/dimensions, etc. I suppose that I''d be happy with any of those 3, though they are probably out of my price range given the VVS specs on two of them (all else being about equal).

The problem is, if I buy a diamond, it is going to be something that I find appealing, but not always the recipient. Therefore, given very good to excellent specs, which I believe were posted above given the price, would you guys feel confident that I''d locate a diamond that would please most people? Thanks again!

I''l check the other providers as well, but I wanted a set of numbers to begin with so I can narrow their search. That''s why I posed the original specs and price. IThanks for recommending the Pavillion and Crown data Jet!
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HI 32!
I''m probably the polar opposite of Todd- in that I really don''t look at numbers as much as actual diamonds. My opinions on cut are quite different from many people here on Pricescope, maybe hearing a different point of view will broaden your search.

I personally would not want to purchase a diamond based only on stats.
Based on your preference in John''s article ( numbers 2, 6 and 8), if you pick a diamond by eye, the numbers Todd and Lorelei suggested will likely be close to what you see. The problem is that you can''t do it the other way- if you buy just having a set of numbers, that does not guarantee the diamond will look as you imagine.

Here''s where I''m different than a lot of PS members in my opinions about cut- with an important addendum- I would only broaden the search parameters if you can buy from a vendor who will personally assess the diamond for you- that''s very important if you do broaden the search.

In terms of things like GIA Polish and Symmetry grades, personally, I''d include stones of "Good" and "Very Good"
I''d also include stones GIA graded "Very Good" cut grade- in addition to the EX ones.
If you love a stone with the lesser stats ( many people do) you can save some money, or get a larger diamond.

Based on the photos, my preference on John''s page would be number 3, for example. In this case, such a stone- getting an AGS4- might very well cost a bit less than a stone that got AGS0.
I believe that the preference is a personal one- and that many people will chose both type of looks.
Have you looked at many stones in person yet?
 
Wow, thanks Lorelei. These somewhat gel with what I found in some of the FAQ articles. I hope you guys are willing to give the ASET and specs a once over for me when I've narrowed my search down!
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Jet2ks: Absolutely! Feel free to dig up something good for me, my eyes are going a bit blurry now! I'd love to get something between the 1.10 and 1.20 range, but... I've contacted about three vendors with specs above to see what they come up with. A good return policy is going to be important if I do this sight (not ASET) unseen.

Whoa Todd, those are some close tolerances for sure! Thanks! That's why you guys get the cream of the crop I suppose. I'm just tossing numbers out there form the FAQ, as well as some of the online diamonds in my price range. Those are good numbers for sure, but I'll probably be waiting around a few months before anyone comes up with a 1.1ct stone in my price range with thos specs. :)

Rockdiamond, thanks for the advise on viewing ths tone. I agree with you, that some of this will be a matter of preference (do you like tube amplifiers or solid state?). However, if there is a market for value based on specs, and a stone will be replaced if lost or stolen based on those specs, I figured I should go with the flow. I have viewed a few Princess and rounds at a friend's shop. He had a limited inventory, but I viewed a few 0.7-0.8 H color stones without knowing what their specs were. To be honest, that's what turned me off. I was unimpressed with what he had to offer, so I figured there has to be a better way! Of course, this just goes back to the return policy being very important too! :)

Thanks!
 
Date: 5/29/2009 2:35:03 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

I''m probably the polar opposite of Todd- in that I really don''t look at numbers as much as actual diamonds. My opinions on cut are quite different from many people here on Pricescope, maybe hearing a different point of view will broaden your search.

I personally would not want to purchase a diamond based only on stats.
Click to expand...

I don''t think we''re polar opposites at all David, I''m not recommending that anybody purchase a diamond based on stats alone, I certainly do not. I''m one of the few vendors who insists on personally evaluating every diamond that I sell and the only way to do that is to bring it in and take it for a spin... We do use the numerical data of diamonds to narrow down the field of possibilities because shipping costs are extortionate and we would be foolish not to do so. The measurements of the different sections of a diamond and a facet-by-facet breakdown of the structure of the diamond can provide great insight into whether a diamond is likely to meet our expectations for visual performance. I''m all for "looking at a diamond" to determine whether it is lively and all, but online buyers rely on data such as lab reports, computerized proportions analysis, clarity photographs, gems fantasy scope images, ASET images, ideal scope images, etc. to make a more informed decision... And certainly they should work with vendors who take a hands on approach to providing them with such detailed information.

I might "know" how a car drives because I took it for a spin, but you can bet that I''m going to read the information on the sticker provided by the manufacturer before I buy it to ensure that I''m buying the car that I set out to buy... Otherwise I might end up with a four banger when I really wanted a six or an eight cylinder - know what I mean? Oh yea, and I''m the paranoid critter who is going to make the dealer pop that puppy up on a lift so that I can inspect the underside of the vehicle before I complete the purchase and if the vehicle is used it better come with a Car Facts report because that''s the kind of buyer that I am... Interestingly enough, I take the same detailed approach to buying and selling diamonds. Go figure
2.gif


And by the way, this approach just saved me a bunch of $$$ | Hassle | Headache | because one of our cars was rear ended a few weeks ago (yea, we''re okay) and the body shop who did the work (recommended by the insurance company) tried pulling a fast one and didn''t do a bunch of the work they were supposed to do and tried to pass it off under the heading of "I must be stupid" because I neglected to mention to them that I grew up in the car business (oops, my bad) so I took the car over to a shop owned by a friend of ours and had him put the car up on the lift and then we called the insurance company over to examine the work and low and behold, they get to pay for the work to be done all over again and the shop who did the work the first time isn''t going to be the shop doing the work the second time. So yea, rest assured that I look over the surface of a car before I buy it, but you''d better put money down on the fact that I''m going to to look past the veneer to the structure of the vehicle before plunking my hard earned money down - why should buying / selling a diamond be any different?
 
Good point Todd- I should have said that we're different in the type of round brilliant diamonds we prefer- based on the specs you posted.
It's rare that a seller takes the care you clearly do- with so many site selling diamonds they've never seen.

32degrees- it sounds like a terrible way to look at diamonds!
In a perfect world, you could walk into a store and see a number of diamonds- along with their GIA or AGSL reports. Keeping the grades from you truly negates the value of the experience!

If you could see a number of stones and could actually pick what you saw, I'd suggest looking at both the "Ideal" cut stones as well as those I suggested before.
It sounds like that might prove difficult where you are located.

I personally, don't like the patterns in a diamond- making it in some ways more difficult- and other ways far more simple to select stones.
Difficult in that you need to trust your eyes- and a GIA or AGSL report.
Simple because if you look at some diamonds- it would be good to look at more than a few- you'll start to understand which angles you like strictly by using your eye. An experienced eye doesn't necessarily need to know if a stone is XXDegrees to see if it's deep, or has a flat crown.
So: if you're buying from a company like Blue Nile- plug the numbers into the HCA- and hope for the best.
If it's a company that will actually be looking at the diamond they offer you, find a place that offers the type of diamond, and information you prefer.

Going back to the original question- again- my feeling is no, I don't suggest buying by the numbers- a seller like Todd that will actually look at the stone on your behalf is worth a lot.
 
Thanks everyone. You guys are unbelievable. THis is a fantastic forum. The combined input definitely gives me a better picture of what to seek. I realize that $6500.00 isn''t a lot for a diamond, and I''m only going to be placed in the middling area of quality, but for me, it''s hopefully a one time deal, so I want the best that she can put on her finger! :)

Thanks jet2ks for the recommendations. Oddly enough, JA was one of the places I was looking at the settings. Can I assume you''ve used them before and had a good experience? Is there anyone in particular that I should deal with there? THanks!

BTW, I live about 45 minutes from Manhattan, so I suppose it''s a sin that I''m not just hopping on the train and heading into the diamond district. TO be honest, if I did that, I bet I''d come out with something far less impressive than what I''ll find with your guidance. I''d probably change my mind a million times in the store, and eventually get tired of it and just grab whatever was in my price range...
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Jet2ks, maybe it''s me, or the images they have online, but the smallest of the bunch appears the nicest from a color perspective. The other two (maybe this is mental) are H and it actually appears so in the center of the table for some reason. Grr, this is why visiting the store is important eh? This is good though, because maybe I can just make an appt with them to view these directly. What would you choose from the photos, if you don''t mind? Thanks!
 
Date: 5/29/2009 9:13:50 PM
Author: 32degrees
Jet2ks, maybe it's me, or the images they have online, but the smallest of the bunch appears the nicest from a color perspective. The other two (maybe this is mental) are H and it actually appears so in the center of the table for some reason. Grr, this is why visiting the store is important eh? This is good though, because maybe I can just make an appt with them to view these directly. What would you choose from the photos, if you don't mind? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Don't put too much stock in color from a photo. Without knowing the exact setup (lighting, focal distance, even what color clothes the photographer was wearing) when they were taken, you can't be sure how they will show IRL. The setup will change slightly between photo sessions.

If you are that close, then yes, I would highly recommend scheduling a visit with JA's New York office. Give them a call, tell them which diamonds you are interested in and they can hold those for you to look at. Josh and Darin both get good reviews on PS. If for some reason you cannot visit, Julianna is their gemologist and she can look them over for you and give an opinion.

On personal preference, I like the first two and would want to either view them in person, or if that is not possible, see Idealscope images. Let me say here that it is because I know I like the look of shorter, thicker arrows. The third diamond has a slightly different personality and many people will prefer that look--neither is wrong, and a lot of people will never notice. There are others that I'm sure will weigh in here, as well, and more opinions would be helpful.

I also want to comment on Todd & David's posts. I don't think anyone here would recommend buying a diamond strictly on numbers if it is possible for the poster to view them in person. What we try and do is exactly what Todd does, narrow down the field based on numbers and images in order to increase the odds of finding an excellent stone. The one thing that the three vendors you mentioned and the three I posted have in common is that they all will physically examine diamonds for you before shipping and give honest opinions about what they see. The reason that all three stones I selected are from JA is simply that they currently have the largest selection of diamonds in your spec & price range.
 
Date: 5/29/2009 9:00:03 PM
Author: 32degrees
Thanks everyone. You guys are unbelievable. THis is a fantastic forum. The combined input definitely gives me a better picture of what to seek. I realize that $6500.00 isn''t a lot for a diamond, and I''m only going to be placed in the middling area of quality, but for me, it''s hopefully a one time deal, so I want the best that she can put on her finger! :)

Thanks jet2ks for the recommendations. Oddly enough, JA was one of the places I was looking at the settings. Can I assume you''ve used them before and had a good experience? Is there anyone in particular that I should deal with there? THanks!

BTW, I live about 45 minutes from Manhattan, so I suppose it''s a sin that I''m not just hopping on the train and heading into the diamond district. TO be honest, if I did that, I bet I''d come out with something far less impressive than what I''ll find with your guidance. I''d probably change my mind a million times in the store, and eventually get tired of it and just grab whatever was in my price range...
7.gif
Click to expand...
In that case here is a suggestion. If a trip to LI isn''t out of the question, contact Jon at www.goodoldgold.com and make an appointment, see what he has to offer. That might make things easier for you.

And of course we would be glad to look over any info you get on some diamonds
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Date: 5/30/2009 5:21:46 AM
Author: Lorelei
In that case here is a suggestion. If a trip to LI isn''t out of the question, contact Jon at www.goodoldgold.com and make an appointment, see what he has to offer. That might make things easier for you.
Click to expand...

Very good suggestion!

32 degrees, my answer to your question is:

Based on specs, it''s possible to reject a diamond.

I would reject a diamond with:
- thick or very thin girdle
- graining (a lot of people don''t care, but I hate graining)
- a high depth
- pavilion angle higher than 41 degrees
- a too big table (> 60%)
- GIA cut grade, polish or symmetry below Very Good

For the crown, my opinion differs from other pricescopers: I also accept shallower crowns if they are at least 32.5 degrees high.

But the best way to choose is to see the diamond in person.

Call Jonathan at GOG and have an appointment!
 
Thanks again everyone. I will definitely shoot a quck email over to JA to make an appt. I''m not sure what the market for diamonds in my price range is right now, but hopefully they can hold it until next Friday which is when I''ll have some time to visit. Thanks for the suggestions!

I also contacted GOG a few days ago, and they were kind enough the send links to three diamonds as well. Though LI is a pain to get to (maybe I''m just lazy, but the LIE is a nightmare!), I may make the trip. Here are the three they reco''d:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5377/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4614/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4587/

Just the mention of a ring to my GF has her online checking out settings. She''s already located a setting she likes at JA, even though I had one chosen at WF. Her choice is a pave ring with 10 total stones:

https://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/settings-with-sidestones/ring/item_58-261.asp

Mine was a basic cathedral solitaire band because I''m always hearing people complain about the side stones falling out:

http://www.whiteflash.com/Engagement-Rings/Styles/Solitaire/Cathedral-Diamond-Solitaire-Setting_692.htm

However, it''s for her, so I suppose the JA setting it will be! I also wrote to JA asking for a ASET shot on the one I liked. If you guys were to choose from the 6 total at JA and GOG, would you have any suggestions on what you''d narrow it down to? Thanks!
 
Hi! I highly recommend Good Old Gold because my beautiful diamond came from there! I did it by mail, but wow are you lucky if you can go there! Just be sure to make an appointment. Most of their diamonds will fall into the tight parameters that Todd gave and a few into Lorelei's. Overall, those will be within AGS0 light performance range.

Please print out a picture of the ring she likes from JA and take it with you to GOG. They have plenty of settings similar to that. It would be easiest to get them to order it for you and set the stone. By the way, the one she likes is not pave, it is shared prong. You might want to ask GOG if the one you choose has a matching wedding band as well.

Good luck and please let us know what you decide! I think this is my favorite of the 3 you posted:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4587/
 
Date: 5/30/2009 9:39:52 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Hi! I highly recommend Good Old Gold because my beautiful diamond came from there! I did it by mail, but wow are you lucky if you can go there! Just be sure to make an appointment. Most of their diamonds will fall into the tight parameters that Todd gave and a few into Lorelei''s. Overall, those will be within AGS0 light performance range.

Please print out a picture of the ring she likes from JA and take it with you to GOG. They have plenty of settings similar to that. It would be easiest to get them to order it for you and set the stone. By the way, the one she likes is not pave, it is shared prong. You might want to ask GOG if the one you choose has a matching wedding band as well.

Good luck and please let us know what you decide! I think this is my favorite of the 3 you posted:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4587/
Click to expand...
Hmm, good idea about bringing a printout along diamondseeker2006! So, you liked the H colored SI1? Wow, I never would have guessed. I was somewhat partial to the http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5377/ when choosing among the GOG selection. I just have a thing for being able to see the arrows clearly I suppose. However, perhaps a low crown height would also provide that effect yet yield worse light performance. So, maybe seeing the arrows clearly is not a good indicator of quality.

Thanks for your suggestion! Now I have to read up on how to read an ASET image since that seems to be what everyone (vendor) is capable of providing.
 
Date: 5/30/2009 4:25:15 PM
Author: 32degrees

Hmm, good idea about bringing a printout along diamondseeker2006! So, you liked the H colored SI1? Wow, I never would have guessed. I was somewhat partial to the http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5377/ when choosing among the GOG selection. I just have a thing for being able to see the arrows clearly I suppose. However, perhaps a low crown height would also provide that effect yet yield worse light performance. So, maybe seeing the arrows clearly is not a good indicator of quality.

Thanks for your suggestion! Now I have to read up on how to read an ASET image since that seems to be what everyone (vendor) is capable of providing.
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Hey 32degrees, don''t you just love all the great ideas and help you can get on PS?

Capturing arrows in photographs is very challenging. It is amazing to me how well the vendors on this site are able to do it. Under normal viewing conditions, the arrows will look silver, not black. The black arrows only occur when something (in this case a camera) is at the perfect distance and blocks the light from reaching those eight facets. Clearly defined and symmetrical arrows is a good sign, just don''t worry whether they are silver or black in the photos.

James Allen does not provide ASET images. They do provide Idealscope, which works very well for rounds. Here is a link on how those work and what to look for in images.

http://highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance

Both vendors will provide quality service. Just to mix you up some more, Excel Diamonds also has offices in New York if you want to check them out, as well. Good luck in your search.
 
Would you guys be concerned about a diamond with this many featheres? Please see attached.

JA_1_11.png
 
If that is from the G VS2 that I linked, no. Don''t get too wrapped up on the inclusion plot, some of them can look like road maps and the diamond is eye-clean and structurally sound. Since the overall clarity rating is VS2, those inclusions by definition are difficult to detect at 10x magnification by a trained professional. If they interfered with the durability or visual impact of the diamond, it would have received a lower clarity rating.
 
Hey Jet, thanks for the links, consider them bookmarked, and thanks to HPD for posting such useful info. I must have a thing for 1.11 carats, because I like the 1.11 from both GOG and JA that were recommended (Hmm, I better double check the specs to make sure they're not the same! :))

Yes, I do love all of the info you guys make available! I checked around for a link to make a donation of some sort, but I suppose Pricescope is based on other funding?

Originally, Excel was who I began viewing, then I located a setting on WF, and figured it would be best to get the setting and stone at the same place (for problem resolution should there be any). However, I have to go back there now since she has my setting choices turned all upside down! LOL.

Thanks for the info on the feathers too. I really like that diamond, and emailed JA to have Julianna check it out, and possibly put it on hold. WF sent me specs on a nice stone that's still in Antwerp, but I don't know if I really want to wait that long.
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THanks!
 
Date: 5/30/2009 5:27:38 PM
Author: 32degrees
Hey Jet, thanks for the links, consider them bookmarked, and thanks to HPD for posting such useful info. I must have a thing for 1.11 carats, because I like the 1.11 from both GOG and JA that were recommended (Hmm, I better double check the specs to make sure they''re not the same! :))

Yes, I do love all of the info you guys make available! I checked around for a link to make a donation of some sort, but I suppose Pricescope is based on other funding?

Originally, Excel was who I began viewing, then I located a setting on WF, and figured it would be best to get the setting and stone at the same place (for problem resolution should there be any). However, I have to go back there now since she has my setting choices turned all upside down! LOL.

Thanks for the info on the feathers too. I really like that diamond, and emailed JA to have Julianna check it out, and possibly put it on hold. WF sent me specs on a nice stone that''s still in Antwerp, but I don''t know if I really want to wait that long.
7.gif


THanks!
Click to expand...
Good move.
 
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