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Can someone tell me the difference, can we use drawings on this board.

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pyramid

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(I would avoid stones with clusters of feathers running from the girdle (it's okay if they are by the girdle, just make sure they are not alreading running from the girdle) - think a crack in your car windshield.)

What does 'running with the girdle' mean. If it touches the girdle can it be considered as by the girdle or should it not touch at all. Is by the girdle on the girdle but in a specific direction and does running with mean in a particular direction from a particular viewing point.

I wish someone could sketch a diagram. It is hard to understand the finer points when it is all in writing.
 

pyramid

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Sorry I have changed the wording, I did not mean running with but 'running from' Also if feathers by the girdle are allowable does depth not come into it?
 

RubyBleu

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basically - if a feather's point of origin is the surface of the girdle - caused often by the process that makes diamonds round before you polish them (bruting) you can say it's coming from the girdle ---- all diamonds (almost) have something called bearding...... tiny tiny wisps of feathers coming off/from the girdle. Unless these are excessive they don't even merit a comment - they do not affect clarity grades (except F and IF).

Most diamonds, if they are structurally unsound, don't survive the polishing process - the others don't survive the setting..... so if your diamond has made it this far (And it's not an I3) then you are fine fine fine.

Please stop asking questions about this - it's not an issue. Better to have a feather on/near/by/off/from the girdle that one smack down the middle of the table. In the diamond business, beauty is king. My initial responses were to your theoretical question... just hurry-up and propose to her darnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RB
 

pyramid

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Yip. But what does the feathers coming from the sides of the girdle count under: by, near, off, from?

I read in another forum that bearding is feathers coming from the girdle and the sides of the girdle.

Last Question
 

Rhino

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Hi pyramid,

Feathers can run from the girdle in a VVS2 if it has bearding. A feather by the girdle is not as big a deal as some would make it out to be. It is a very hard thing to chip or break a diamond. Over time (and I mean a long time) facets junctions can become abraided and the girdle nicked. This can all be repaired usually with a minor repolising or recutting without much loss in weight. If a feather however ran from one point in the girdle to another and they both penetrated the surface that would be of more concern but the fact that a small feather is penetrating the girdle is not really such a big woop especially in the better clarity grades.

If you browse the diamonds on our website you'll usually be able to compare the inclusions within the diamonds that are considered the "clarity graders" and compare that to the plot on the GIA reports. Matter of fact, just scanned in one today that had a feather on the edge, a 1.51ct F VS2 that's in the "new stones being scanned section" if you want to take a peek. Beats a line art drawing too. :)

Peace,
Rhino
 

pyramid

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Does the feather on your stone the F VS2 1.51 run from the girdle.

If a feather runs from the edge of the girdle is it different from running from the girdle.
 

pyramid

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Rhino: The reason I am askng is because about the feather there is round mark and I thought that is where the feather started from and not the girdle.
 

pyramid

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RubyBleu: (I would avoid stones with clusters of feathers running from the girdle (it's okay if they are by the girdle, just make sure they are not alreading running from the girdle)

I was referring to a drawing as I did not understand the word by in this context:

by meaning in this context:


by (NEAR) or
come by or
go by or
pass (GO PAST) or
sit by
 

Rhino

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Does the feather on your stone the F VS2 1.51 run from the girdle.


Nope. It's running to the girdle. Hehe... jk.


If a feather runs from the edge of the girdle is it different from running from the girdle.


Running from the edge of the girdle implies that it reaches the edge while just running from the girdle can be taken to mean either.

rhino
 

pyramid

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Yeah I liked your jk Rhino. In all seriousness though does the feather on your 1.51 stone originate from the girdle side or the top of the upper girdle break facet where an inclusion is seen at the end of the feather or as part of the feather.
 

pyramid

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If this is a non issue why do dealers recommend that consumers stay away from diamonds with feathers running on the edge? I am not disbelieving you but on another website Diamonddtalk all vendors advise against this so they cannot be trying to steal customers from fellow vendors. If this is not true why would they do this!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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There are 2 catagories:
1. Vendors bagging other vendors stones
2. Appraisers creating a sense of fear so you will use their services.

You have had opinions from many experianced people who are not pushing sales or services and you appear to question their opinion and experiance. Believe those who make money from you, but do not propogate unneccessary fears for the thousands of consumers who read these threads.

Do this, ask all your friends and associates if they know of anyone who has had a damaged diamond. Contact the people and find out if there is a relationship between inclusions and damage. You will find that the cleaner stones are more likely to chip because diamond breaks along its perfect (111) octahredral cleavage.

Now this does not mean I3 diamonds are stronger, but a small inclusion need not add risk of damage.
 

RockDoc

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Appraisers using fear to use their services.

Garry

This is absolutely unfair and misleading to say this. Facts concerning the durability of a stone is important to consumers.

Believe me I see a ton of stones sold where dangerous feather were hidden under prongs.

This is not fear tactics, this is informing the consumer knowledgeably, accurately and truthfully.

Given all the people who have voiced problems with diamonds they previously purchase both here and on Diamond Talk demonstrate the real significance of these concerns.

To tell consumers to ignore these characteristics which many times DO have bearing on the durability of a diamond is a dis-service,

In the stone described above, another gemologist graded it in the mounting.. the clarity grade he said was VS-2 .. The stone is an SI-2. It also has a significant amount of strain in it as well, and it has two chips on a very thick girdle.

So these issues happen and are true, If a consumer doesn't want an impartial and factual checking of the potential purchases that is their decision to make. But to make light of these scenarios when these situations are FACTUAL is highly unprofessional.

Damn right, some consumers should get a dose of Fear, if that's what you choose to call it. But in real life these are issues that ARE fact and DO happen.

Maybe if sellers and the labs would disclose the WHOLE TRUTH about these things, then they wouldn't have to feel concern.

Rockdoc
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Here we go again Roc.

For once give us some hard #'s

How many cases have you seen in the past year/10years of chipped diamonds that the chipped on an inclusion?

Post the certs and new Sarin scans etc. If you see them then surely you do damamage and recut reports.

As we have been down this road so many times before, give us fact not inuendo!
 

RockDoc

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Evidence of damage to stones, and problems of misrepresentation people have had buying them is well documented on the forums where consumers write about the problems encountered when they discover them, which is usually too late.

You keep wanting me to provide hard facts. But yet you segregate and ignore the real question. You restrict your request to me for damaged stones, but in purchasing diamonds there are many other "problems" that consumers aren't told about. This is the absolute reason that the SHOULD have their stones checked by an independent expert. You seem to indicate to consumers that they don't need to protect themselves. This is the position of a seller of diamonds, which you are, and as such your advice is not unbiased NOR independent.

As for providing you with documentation of my writings, when I've asked you for academic research into your claims - you provided an expert in a totally different field of expertise, who has no research papers written. Highly unusual for a university professional !

Fulfilling your request will take hours of prep, cropping, and arrangement to do. This is research that I have taken the time to do. It will be published in my books then they are done. I am currently working on getting more of these type stones from a new source that does see damaged goods from time to time. Is your desire for this information that useful that you'd pay for the time to assemble it?

The other issue is that when examining stones for clients, the information as such, is confidential, and the client must approve me publishing photos etc.

In generic description this isn't an ethical breach, but to really get the intense details, it is a violation of appraisers ethical codes.

Rockdoc
 

pyramid

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Interesting. Interesting as well that flawless diamonds may be more susceptible to breakage than included ones.

I asked a jeweller about small feathers near surface and was told it would not have an affect on the stone as a stone could be damaged by being struck even where there were no feathers. I don't know about this take on it as this would be true as well. The jeweller insisted that there was no difference between whether stone stone already had a feather or not as damage could occur anyway.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Roc I have not attempted to sell a colorless diamond to anyone outside of Australia via these forums.

You make me giggle sometimes :)

Sure I will pay you to cut and paste a few pictures to provide some hard evidence to back up your BS. giggle.

I continually recomend consumers use the service of proffesionals like you. I believe that the services of well equipped appraisers like you are very valuable for online shoppers :)

I have also noticed you posting some helpful posts on various topics :)
 

pyramid

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I note that the stone in question above is amongst the educational stones on Goodoldgold and is still listed as a VS2. Why would this be so? Would this stone have been sold as an SI2 and would the customer not have unearthed this if he/she had not sent the stone to Rockdoc. I am assuming the stone was sent to Rockdoc as he mentions there was also some strain in the stone.

Was the price changed by Goodoldgold before they sold the stone although not appearing altered on the site of educational stones where Rhino posts stones after they are sold.

Rockdoc is saying the stone was graded by another gemologist in the setting but Goodoldgold grade their own stones and the photos show the diamond out of a setting which magnified images also?

This stone also has a GIA certificate with it dated 4 November 2002, a copy is shown on the site at Goodoldgold.com Surely GIA do not grade stones in a mount. In the above post Rhino states he scanned in the stone today which was 1 December 2002. Was the stone secondhand and damaged between November 4 and December 1.
 

pyramid

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Another thing which strikes me. Surely the vendors on forums have their own quality control and therefore have checked their diamonds for feathers which would be dangerous to the stone and so would not sell diamonds in that state
 

pyramid

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Has anyone on this forum had a diamond which has chipped where the inclusion is?

What about feathers on the crown of a diamond are they liable to get worse and cause breakage
 

Mara

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Pyr--Just out of curiousity...are your diamonds insured? If not...maybe you should insure them, and be sure chippage is included in your policy. This way in case some random incident happens and god-forbid your diamond chips...you can get another one--no problem! :)

If anyone should worry about a diamond chipping ...its me with my notoriously shallow stone, but we are just getting it insured against chippage and sending a prayer skywards. After that its all about fate! :)

Good luck..
 

pyramid

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Mara: One stone is insured but the I1 clarity stone is not. I feel it is not worth the insurance money to insure it as it is an I1 but at a good price. I am worried about the feather on the edge though although the actual feather is probably about a SI1 or VS2 in size, I think it is the large clouds of pinpoints off side from the table which gives the stone its I1 grading.

Wondering if Rockdoc is going to take CutNut up on his offer to pay for photos of diamonds which have broken due to the inclusions they hold.

As lots of posters and viewers must buy stones which are SI1 with feathers on the side towards the edge of the girdle, I am surprised that no one else is asking questions about durability or getting their stones checked out after vendors here have stated there is more risk of the stone becoming damaged from that type of inclusion.

You said your ring was shallow - it does not have an extremely thin or very thin girdle does it as that is what I have read are the concern with shallow stones.

I wish vendors and appraisers would agree then we (the public) would know the quality of stones to look for. Many, many SI1 stones have inclusions which are on the side and this is considered a threat to durability Rockdoc states and as everyone knows no one wants to see these same inclusions in the table area, so what are we supposed to buy. Maybe if we all buy VVS stones the vendors will cash in and as the stone is a more expensive purchase we will probably opt towards paying for a professional appraiser, thus keeping the appraisers in business too.

If what Rockdoc is saying about durability is just scaremongering, then he should not say it. If it is true he should provide some fact so that other diamond expert gemologists also will agree with him. Then the public will know where the ball lies.

If I was buying another product and one expert told me there was a fault in it and another said no it is okay, who am I to believe especially if say that product is manufactured in one place and all stock has the same mark in it. If it was not a necessary purchase I would not buy one. Here though it is a different matter as most diamonds SI1 and below have feathers on the crown usually at the lower edge so as not do reflect in the table area.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Actually Pyramid I have frequently suggested pople buy SI diamonds with central marks because they are always smaller and harder to see than the same grade in the crown.

Also inclusions just under the table are much harder to see in reflections than inclusions anywhere else in the diamond.

So far you have only said one correct thing. Flawless or otherwise diamonds with thin girdles and shallow crown + pavilion angles (below 72 degrees total) are at far greater risk of breaking than heavily included diamonds. HCA warns in such cases.

The screaming silence of those with evidence to suggest included diamonds break might maybe be telling you something?
 

pyramid

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"As for providing you with documentation of my writings, when I've asked you for academic research into your claims - you provided an expert in a totally different field of expertise, who has no research papers written. Highly unusual for a university professional !"



Is this true?
 
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