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Can I ask your opinion on a 1.72 round with these stats?

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mila

Rough_Rock
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Nov 1, 2006
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Round
1.72 carat
H VVS1
Price 16, 235
Lab GIA (June 6, 2006)
Cut Grade: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Med Blue Fluorescence
7.66 x 7.71 x 4.77

Table: 56%
Depth: 62.1%
Crown Angle: 34.5
Pav Angle: 41.2
Culet: None

I ran the HCA and it came out to be 3.2 Very Good, with Light Return & Spread Very Good; Fire & Scintillation Good.

The reason I''m asking is that a friend of mine bought this diamond sight unseen. Clarity was important to him (not to his girlfriend though). I don''t know if I should say something to him about the *possibility* that he could have gotten a better cut or bigger size for his money. I already tried to tell him (before he bought) to run things through the HCA to help him weed out diamonds, but I don''t think he did that. I''m guessing it''s possible that this is a great stone, but I''m really a novice when it comes to this. I''m hoping some of you with more experience could just give me some feedback on the numbers before I consider broaching the subject that he could possibly do better? Any thoughts on this? Should I keep my mouth shut? Should I just wait to see if he loves it when he gets it? Online store he bought from does have 30 day return.

Any thoughts or insights would be much appreciated! I know there are many whose stones don''t have the "best" numbers, but who love them anyways, but do you think the fact that this stone only got "Good" for Fire and Scintillation will mean it''s not really that great?

Thank you in advance!
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think if you had bought this stone and came here for advice, we would have told you that you can do better than this. However, since you already tried to tell your friend about cut and the HCA, etc., and he didn''t listen, I would not say another word. You tried, and that''s all you can do. Some people just don''t care to get into the fine details of diamond quality. So I think in this case, I''d let it go.
 

Kaleigh

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Date: 1/14/2007 8:41:01 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think if you had bought this stone and came here for advice, we would have told you that you can do better than this. However, since you already tried to tell your friend about cut and the HCA, etc., and he didn''t listen, I would not say another word. You tried, and that''s all you can do. Some people just don''t care to get into the fine details of diamond quality. So I think in this case, I''d let it go.
Ditto!!!
 

Finding_Neverland

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Date: 1/14/2007 8:41:01 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think if you had bought this stone and came here for advice, we would have told you that you can do better than this. However, since you already tried to tell your friend about cut and the HCA, etc., and he didn''t listen, I would not say another word. You tried, and that''s all you can do. Some people just don''t care to get into the fine details of diamond quality. So I think in this case, I''d let it go.
Dittos.

If you try again, your friend may think you''re a nag when you''re simply trying to help.

Like DS said,............. You tried. Your friend did not listen.
 

kcoursolle

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jan 21, 2006
Messages
10,589
If you''ve told him your opinion about the stone and he didn''t seem to care, I would let it drop as others have mentioned. On the flip side...the good news is that he could have done *a lot* worse LOL!!
 

mila

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
8
Thanks for the input DS2006, Kaleigh, and Finding_Neverland. Yeah, I guess that''s kind of along the lines of what I was thinking
. I saw a couple ACA''s on WF''s website for around the same price and around 1.8 c with 1.2 and 1.4 on the HCA (a little lower on clarity though VS1 and VS2)
Was so wishing he would have gone for one of those instead. Don''t think he trusted me when I was pushing for one of the favored vendors on PS and didn''t really show any desire to research on PS.

I''m just sooo hoping that this diamond will turn out to be gorgeous, for his gf''s sake. She knows that he has talked to me about the numbers and PS and all of that, so I just know she''s going to ask me what I think about them. I''m hoping I will be able to say that the numbers weren''t the best they could be, but it''s sooo gorgeous that she shouldn''t even worry about it. Anyone think that there''s a chance it will still be really fiery and sparkly with these numbers?
 

mila

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
8
Hi kcourselle ~ no I haven''t told him my opinion about the stone. We had discussed what to look for prior to him picking out a stone (I didn''t even know this one was a possibility), so I think he thinks he was looking for the right thing by going for a GIA excellent. He just didn''t really listen to the details I told him I guess lol. You''re right, he definitely could have done a lot worse! In the whole scheme of things, it''s not a big deal; just hoping for the best for him and his gf.

Thank you for your input!
 

tanalasta

Shiny_Rock
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1. He has a steeper stone than he could have gotton with a pavillion angle of >41. Ideally 40.8 would have been lovely.

2. H is more 'yellow' than I would prefer. Sure, it's still very acceptable in a ring setting but for his money, a F or G VS2 would be a nicer stone. Colour is more important than clarity in anything over a VS2.

3. The cut has been rated GIA excellent and to be fair, it's still fairly good. It'll still be better than a good proportion of the B&M rubbishy stones that salespeople try to sell to you.

4. He has already purchased it. Why burst his bubble? If they're not used to looking at AGS000 in a flawless white - they'd still think it was a gorgeous stone.

The usual caveat applies - he needs to post an IS image to assess for light return. If he's really wanting to know if he got a good deal, search around for a reliable appraiser.

5. With that type of money I could have bought a D, IF (or VVS) in 1.0x Ct with a very nice cut.
 

mila

Rough_Rock
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Nov 1, 2006
Messages
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Thank you tanalasta! For some reason, he was intent on a VVS stone - could not be talked into a VS1 or VS2. Gf wanted H or higher color, so I think she''ll be okay with that. She has relatively bigger hands, so wanted some size; cut was most important to her, then color( H or higher), size, then clarity (eye clean).

That''s a very good point - they''re not used to looking at F AGS000 stones, so I imagine they will think it''s beautiful.

I will try to get him to consider taking it to an appraiser (didn''t seem too interested in that before for some reason).

Thank you again for your input!
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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42,064
I also think butting out is the WTG here!!
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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24,426
Date: 1/14/2007 10:09:57 PM
Author: tanalasta
1. He has a steeper stone than he could have gotton with a pavillion angle of >41. Ideally 40.8 would have been lovely.
You can have a great stone with a 41 PA (even 41.2, I have seen great IS''s on some), as long as it''s cut tight, and is paired with a good CA. I''ll post my stone, which is a 34/41. If you''d like to see what the actual stone looks like, look through the Fire Thread I started.

Having said that, I would be skeptical the stone in question is cut tight.

mila, I agree with others, at this point, unless your friend comes to you with concerns, I''d leave well enough alone. If the girlfriend questions you on whether he paid attention to numbers and PS, I''d just say something along the lines of, he wanted to search for your stone on his own.

IS101.jpg
 

mila

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
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Thanks for the input Lorelei and Ellen :) I appreciate it!

Ellen - that is good to know that a 34/41 combo can be pretty. I would love to see your stone - I will have to look through the Fire thread for it.

Sigh...one of my worries I guess is that I wasn''t clear on my suggestions and that my friend truly thinks he was following my advice, and that I could have done better by him. But I think you all are right -- I guess I can''t say anything now, unless he questions it once he sees it I suppose. A good appraiser would give him an IS image, right? And discuss light return?

Thanks for all of your input!
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/15/2007 1:06:37 PM
Author: mila
Sigh...one of my worries I guess is that I wasn''t clear on my suggestions and that my friend truly thinks he was following my advice, and that I could have done better by him. But I think you all are right -- I guess I can''t say anything now, unless he questions it once he sees it I suppose. A good appraiser would give him an IS image, right? And discuss light return?

Thanks for all of your input!
OK, I missed that he bought it online and has 30 days, so that''s good. I take it the place he bought it from can''t give him an IS image?

And it depends on what all types of gadgets the appraisor has, as to what he can do for him, but even if he didn''t have anything, he can certainly tell him how well the diamond is performing.

Let''s just play it by ear, and hope for the best.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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ellen, you're right on about the 41 degree angle combo. You're safe with even steeper crown angles than 34.5.

If I may comment to the original posters concerns for his friend... Yes, a 34.5 crown with a 41.2 pavilion will produce leakage that is visible under the table through a reflector in a critical examination, however with human stereoscopic vision that leakage will not be visible to their eyes and will be as lovely as an H&A type. I'm not saying it'll be cut to the level of craftsmanship as one, but visually and aesthetically they should be fine. The only instance where it may be of concern is if they were having it set in a bezel setting wherein absolutely no light whatsoever was entering through the pavilion. Think of it, if you would like comparing a VS clarity to an SI clarity. In a critical exam you will you see the difference (like under a microscope) but in a practical examination impossible to tell the difference. Also bear in mind that the HCA penalizes angle combos with 41 degree pavilion angles even when the stones have excellent reflector images. The stone should be lovely.

Peace,
 

mila

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Ellen - no, he bought from bluenile.com and I don''t think they can give IS images, right? Your IS image is beautiful! Thank you so much for all of your input and for the reassurance:)

Rhino - thank you, thank you, thank you for your response re: how this stone will likely look given the numbers!!! I was so very relieved and pleased to read what you wrote. Thank you for the explanation re: critical versus practical examination of the stone. I believe he''s putting the diamond in a relatively simple 4 prong setting. Also, I did not know that about the HCA - thanks so much for explaining all of this in a way that is very easy for me (a novice) to understand. Your input is very much appreciated !
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/15/2007 11:47:53 PM
Author: mila
Ellen - no, he bought from bluenile.com and I don''t think they can give IS images, right? Your IS image is beautiful! Thank you so much for all of your input and for the reassurance:)
No, they don''t.

And you''re welcome!
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/15/2007 6:54:59 PM
Author: Rhino
ellen, you''re right on about the 41 degree angle combo. You''re safe with even steeper crown angles than 34.5.

If I may comment to the original posters concerns for his friend... Yes, a 34.5 crown with a 41.2 pavilion will produce leakage that is visible under the table through a reflector in a critical examination, however with human stereoscopic vision that leakage will not be visible to their eyes and will be as lovely as an H&A type. I''m not saying it''ll be cut to the level of craftsmanship as one, but visually and aesthetically they should be fine. The only instance where it may be of concern is if they were having it set in a bezel setting wherein absolutely no light whatsoever was entering through the pavilion. Think of it, if you would like comparing a VS clarity to an SI clarity. In a critical exam you will you see the difference (like under a microscope) but in a practical examination impossible to tell the difference. Also bear in mind that the HCA penalizes angle combos with 41 degree pavilion angles even when the stones have excellent reflector images. The stone should be lovely.

Peace,
Jon, when does leakage showing on an IS actually begin to show to the eye. In other words, how bad does it have to get? Got a pic??
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/16/2007 9:23:07 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/15/2007 6:54:59 PM
Author: Rhino
ellen, you''re right on about the 41 degree angle combo. You''re safe with even steeper crown angles than 34.5.

If I may comment to the original posters concerns for his friend... Yes, a 34.5 crown with a 41.2 pavilion will produce leakage that is visible under the table through a reflector in a critical examination, however with human stereoscopic vision that leakage will not be visible to their eyes and will be as lovely as an H&A type. I''m not saying it''ll be cut to the level of craftsmanship as one, but visually and aesthetically they should be fine. The only instance where it may be of concern is if they were having it set in a bezel setting wherein absolutely no light whatsoever was entering through the pavilion. Think of it, if you would like comparing a VS clarity to an SI clarity. In a critical exam you will you see the difference (like under a microscope) but in a practical examination impossible to tell the difference. Also bear in mind that the HCA penalizes angle combos with 41 degree pavilion angles even when the stones have excellent reflector images. The stone should be lovely.

Peace,
Jon, when does leakage showing on an IS actually begin to show to the eye. In other words, how bad does it have to get? Got a pic??
I''ve had in my hands 35.1/41.1 combos and the leakage was not discernable. (listed on the GIA Report as a 35/41.2).

Recently we had a 35.1/41.3 (listed on GIA Report as 35/41.4) and the leakage was discernable.

So with 35 degree crown angles the threshold is in the neighborhood of 41.2 or a little higher. But one thing that must be kept in mind is the variances at which Sarin''s deviate. What my Sarin/Helium reports as 41.3 may report a little greater or a little smaller on another. Determining thresholds isn''t an easy task yet it is possible.

Tomorrow I have a GIA Ex 35.5/41.2 on the way in for examination. Once we go live we''ll be able to show all this stuff, the technical data as well as images and a live assessment which will be fun.


What kind of pic would you like to see ellen?

Kind regards,
 

Ellen

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Date: 1/16/2007 2:56:33 PM
Author: Rhino

What kind of pic would you like to see ellen?

Kind regards,
Sorry I wasn''t clear. Can you show an IS of a stone that has enough leakage that it would be discernable to the eye? maybe compared to one where it wouldn''t be? That''d be great if you could.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/16/2007 6:48:34 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/16/2007 2:56:33 PM
Author: Rhino

What kind of pic would you like to see ellen?

Kind regards,
Sorry I wasn''t clear. Can you show an IS of a stone that has enough leakage that it would be discernable to the eye? maybe compared to one where it wouldn''t be? That''d be great if you could.
Hi Ellen,

Please forgive my delayed response. The diamond I was referencing was a stone I had in my hands about a year ago and I had to review all the data I had on it and recollect the stone and the instances/comparison. I need to clarify a statement I made too. In the stone that exhibited the leakage under the reflector (35.1/41.1, listed as 35/41.2 on the GIA Report), it is and was possible to note the leakage, however in the comparison we ran against a diamond with tolkowsky proportions which also featured girdle cutting deviations causing it to not make the Ex grade (digging/painting), the majority of observers in that study preferred the steep/deep combo over the tolkowsky with deviant girdle features.

My objective, when I had that stone in my hands about a year ago was to determine if the majority of observers reallly did visually prefer a GIA Ex over a GIA VG, when the Ex was a steep/deep (a stone we''d generally never purchase) alongside an Ideal with girdle cutting that GIA disqualified.

Below are graphics demonstrating.

On top are DiamXray images of 3 different GIA Ex''s. From left to right, a GOG classic (akin to your diamond), the stone I used in last years study, and another one we happen to have here with 35/41.4. You can see the varying appearances between the 3 in the photograph.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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These are the 2 stones I ran in that comparison about a year ago. I showed the first 10 observers in natural daylight and simulated daylight. When I saw their preferences didn''t change from natural to sim, the next 20 observers I just showed under the sim. The majority picked the stone on the right which is the graphic I pasted in the graphic above. Hope that helps and my apologies for any confusion.

Kind regards,

tolkdevgirdvsexstdp.jpg
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jon, thanks for the pics! Are you saying that the stone people did not prefer was leaky enough to discern then? I thought there would be a bigger difference in the IS image, to be able to tell. Although there is a lot of black in the middle...
 
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