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Can a diamond have too much fire? (Advice please)

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Butterfingers

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2
Hi folks,

have tried learning as much as I can about diamonds via the internet, books ("How to buy a diamond" by Cuellar) and have arrived at two stones I''m interested in and was wondering if I could get some advice/comments. Both are round brilliants.

Diamond #1
-----------
- AGS certified Canadian diamond (2003, so no triple "0" grading available), 0.86 ct, F color, VVS1 clarity
- Total depth 62.8%, table 55%, girdle = thin to slightly thick & faceted, culet = pointed
- Crown angle 35.5 degrees; Crown Height 16%
- Pavillion angle 41 degrees; Pavillion Height 43.1%
- Polish = Ex, Symmetry = Ex
- Negligible fluorescence


Diamond #2
----------
- EGL cert, 0.86 ct, F colour, VS1 clarity
- Total depth 60.4%, table 58%
- Crown height 14.7%, Pavillion height 42.6%
- girdle = med-sl thick
- faint fluorescence

When I plug the numbers in to the Cut Advisor, I get a score of 2.9 with Diamond #1 and 0.6 with Diamond #2 which I believe means that Diamond #2 is the better cut one.

However, when looking at them in person, I found that Diamond #1 sparkled a lot more - lots of fire and some brilliance whereas Diamond #2 was evenly balanced but didn''t "pop" as much as the first diamond.

The price separating the two is negligible - $1000.

Any opinion on either given the proportions I''ve listed? Can a diamond have too much fire? Can I trust EGL?

Thanks for any advice you''re able to offer - it''s appreciated!
 

hikerchick

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
804
If your eyes like #1 better, I say go with what your eyes tell you.
 

bosoxbw

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
69
While I am sure you are right about Diamond #1 being the better stone for you, I think you can do even better by continuing to look for a ideal cut stone in the F/VS1-VS2 area (and you could go down to a G unless you are extremely color sensitive). But for sure I think the VVS1 premium is not worth it, and you can likely find a bigger ideal cut that scores even better on the HCA.

Where are you shopping for the stones? I bet Whiteflash would have some excellent ACAs for you.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
#1 appears to be the better performing stone. Certainly the grading is done by AGS in a more stringent fashion.

If the Cut Grade is important to you, ask the seller if he will re-submit it to AGS for a new updated report. It is POSSIBLE that AGS has enough information about the stone - that they may update the report, without sending it in.

Ask the seller if he has an .srn file and the PGS software.... that could provide you with some more info on it as well.

Rockdoc
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
is there too much fire? too much fire? oh hell no!! no such thing IMO. Go for it - who cares about numbers and ratings and certificates in the end - are you going to wrap them around your finger? no way! If one blazes into your memory that''s the one you should pick. Too much fire? Well.... I guess if you don''t like colored light and sparkles.... but might as well get a clear sapphire or piece of glass. Pick what you love :) Good luck!!
 

kcoursolle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
10,589
What kind of lighting did you compare these stones in? If you only compared them in the store lights, this can often make poorer stones look nicer. I would try to get them out of the stone and into sun light, ambient light, etc.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,378
The amount of fire present is limited by the natural refractive index of diamond, the fact that the material is singly refractive and the traditional shape/configuration of normally available stones in the retail market. No one cuts diamond prisms to just create dispersion. Fire is a natural occurence but varies greatly even in a single diamond depending on the lighting environment.

I don''t think any cut available today gives too much fire. For sure, many diamonds in the market give little to no fire due to the way they are cut. The nicest cuts of every shape have a relatively high amount of fire for their shape.

Stones with shallow crown angles and large tables probably have the least fire if one were to make a general statement. I suppose some exception to this generalization might exist somewhere, but I have not yet seen it.

There are a couple tools and programs which purport to measure dispersion/fire, but because of the variability due to different lighting, I don''t think it means a whole lot in the decision making process when you want to buy or even compare diamonds. Others might have a different opinion and maybe they can make a limited case for their point of view for you.

There are gem materials with more fire than diamond. These suffer from less transparency, or less light return, or some other related appearance problem. Too much fire is possible in a gem material. "Just enough" is what diamond seems to enjoy.
 

Butterfingers

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2
Thanks for the replies so far.

I should comment that in both stores, they use regular lighting and not "diamond lighting".

In the above post, I''ve included all the information on the diamond report other than measurement (5.74 - 5.78 x 3.62 mm). I phoned AGS and back in 2003, they did not grade the cut the way they do now and the only way to get a current grading is to sent it back for re-examination. The only comment on cut is that it is described as an "ideal cut round brilliant" (graded by AGS and I believe a Canadian lab as it is a Polar Bear Diamond by Sirius).

My biggest concern about this is the depth (62.8%), which seems a bit over the ideal range.



My other concern is that if there is such a thing as too much fire, it will prevent the true colour of the diamond from showing and it''d be lacking in brilliance. (Which is more important/sought after - fire or brilliance?).



The cost of the stone is around $6500 tax inc. Should I hold out for something with better proprtions/more even brilliance-fire or a GIA cert? Or is this a good buy?



I''m a complete novice at this so the advice has been greatly appreciated.



Thanks.

 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,426
It is facing up smaller, less than a .75, not sure how much that concerns you, but you''re then paying for something you''re not seeing. You could just buy a smaller stone, ya know?

Could you get the place you''re dealing with to show you, say, a current AGS000? I would personally try and do that.
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
.80 generally hits about 6 mm. Yours is more like a .75

I prefer fire. You can still pick a firey stone, but with better proportions.

6500 is too much for a .75 ct stone. You'd probably be hitting about 4K with online prices.
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
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13,324
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