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Calling Tacori E-Ring!

rainwood

Brilliant_Rock
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Tacori, I read your post in the recent divorce thread and didn't want to derail that thread so thought I'd post here.

I know you were trying to comfort the OP when you said divorce is like a death, but it really isn't. Unfortunately, I know that firsthand. The loss of a relationship is a terrible and difficult thing, but it is not like the death of a partner. It just isn't and when I hear people say that, I feel like they're diminishing what people go through when their spouse dies. And it's another example of people not understanding what that grief is like because if they did, they'd never say it. I've seen divorce close up with family members and friends so I know how hard it can be, but it isn't like being widowed, even for the worst divorces like my sister's.

I know you're a counselor or therapist so thought you might be interested in my perspective.
 

Tacori E-ring

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Wow. I am very sorry for you loss.

As you know grief is very individual. For me it was like a death. I don't really buy into the who gets to be in the most pain game. No one wins. Obviously you do not know details of what I went through so as a human, I am sure you will respect my perspective/life experience. My comment was in no way diminishing someone else's life experience.
 

rainwood

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I'm sorry your divorce was a really terrible experience - you deserve much better and I know you do a lot of good in the world through your work.

I debated whether to even post and in some ways I wish I hadn't. What I wanted to get across is that people say divorce is like a death because they are trying to compare it to the worst thing they can imagine. But maybe they're comparing two things that shouldn't be compared. Do people say death is like a divorce? No. Maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe it's because death of a spouse is usually worse, maybe not always, but probably more often than not.

We can't know the extent of someone else's experiences with any of these terrible events so why compare them at all, particularly if doing so might be taken differently than intended? I wouldn't compare the loss of my husband to someone losing a child. They're both deaths, but I've never lost a child so I don't know what that feels like. My guess is that for most people it's even worse. I wouldn't want them to think I was insensitive to that. If that's playing the who's most in pain game, I'm okay with that.
 

missy

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I hesitate to post but I respect both of you and wanted to add my perspective. While there are similarities they are just not the same and it is not about playing the pain game rather about respecting the loss that is death. Divorce is a loss too but it just isn't the same.

There are real differences b/w death and divorce. Death is forever and is not a choice. One moment they are with you and one moment they are gone. Never will you see them again. It is final and over forever.

There are some similarities. Both leave unplanned changes to the future.
Both can have serious financial consequences.
Both situations hurt and cause deep pain and sadness and even perhaps PTSD.
Both losses can destroy (at least temporarily or even forever) your identity.

But as you both wrote there is no contest when it comes to suffering and experiencing pain. No winners here.
Divorce involves much grief but it just is a different type of grief IMO and I too don't like the comparison b/w death and divorce.
Both situations SUCK but knowing you cannot see the person you loved deeply for many decades ever again, that you cannot look into their eyes and tell them how much you miss them and how much you still love them well IMO that cannot compare to anything else.

The journeys are different and to compare one to another is in a way to lessen what the other person is experiencing. They are both losses and both involve pain but they are different. Life is difficult no matter the path and I always feel the best way to support others is to just be there and listen and hear what they are saying rather than compare one's losses to another because that can feel like one is minimizing that loss even if that is not one's intention.

Sorry for intruding into this very personal thread but I wanted to add my thoughts in case it helped to share a different perspective.
And hugs to both of you for the losses and trauma you have experienced.

((((HUGS)))).
 

Bayek

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rainwood|1478216763|4093448 said:
Tacori, I read your post in the recent divorce thread and didn't want to derail that thread so thought I'd post here.

I know you were trying to comfort the OP when you said divorce is like a death, but it really isn't. Unfortunately, I know that firsthand. The loss of a relationship is a terrible and difficult thing, but it is not like the death of a partner. It just isn't and when I hear people say that, I feel like they're diminishing what people go through when their spouse dies. And it's another example of people not understanding what that grief is like because if they did, they'd never say it. I've seen divorce close up with family members and friends so I know how hard it can be, but it isn't like being widowed, even for the worst divorces like my sister's.

I know you're a counselor or therapist so thought you might be interested in my perspective.
Having gone through a divorce, after 14 1/2 years together it was a death, a loss of who I thought I was, a loss of my future, a loss of future children, a loss of my identity. The number one stressor in life is death of a loved one, a death of a marriage can be horrible, self esteem.. I have not experienced the death of my husband, but I have experienced death and very closely, and both have been very very sad to me, the loss immeasurable. The number 2 stressor in life is divorce.. I'm sure it is harder to lose a spouse who loved you (rhetorical you).. psychologists say it takes 1/2 as long as the years you were married to build a new life, for someone who was married 10 years, that means 5 years to build a life.. I still feel like my divorce was somehow my fault. I don't think we can judge others pain as well as our own.
 

Bayek

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rainwood|1478240719|4093562 said:
I'm sorry your divorce was a really terrible experience - you deserve much better and I know you do a lot of good in the world through your work.

I debated whether to even post and in some ways I wish I hadn't. What I wanted to get across is that people say divorce is like a death because they are trying to compare it to the worst thing they can imagine. But maybe they're comparing two things that shouldn't be compared. Do people say death is like a divorce? No. Maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe it's because death of a spouse is usually worse, maybe not always, but probably more often than not.

We can't know the extent of someone else's experiences with any of these terrible events so why compare them at all, particularly if doing so might be taken differently than intended? I wouldn't compare the loss of my husband to someone losing a child. They're both deaths, but I've never lost a child so I don't know what that feels like. My guess is that for most people it's even worse. I wouldn't want them to think I was insensitive to that. If that's playing the who's most in pain game, I'm okay with that.

No, it's how I felt, I didn't say well at least he's not dead.. I lost years of my life, I lost friends, I lost my self.. A loved mother in law, I lost my identity as Mrs.... as part of a team, my dreams! all my dreams were lost, I grieved, I grieved, I cried, I went through 3 counselors before I found one who really helped me. I would not wish divorce on my worst enemy (as far as I know, I have none anyway :) )

I understand that the loss of a spouse is horrible. I recognize grief. I just know how I felt.

Divorced people are told, move on, it's best, he didn't love you (or she), widowed people are allowed to grieve, I cannot compare the grief, I know what I experienced was akin to death as I have lost my parents, my brother and my sister in the last 16 years, grief, my bestie.. I can say I think the loss of a child would be immeasurable. I don't think we can compare what people feel, some people feel depressed, angry, hurt, exhilarated etc after divorce.. Comparing these two horrible life changing events can't be done I think in all.. I know what I felt,but I haven't been widowed and at my age I think the grief would be different than had I been in a good marriage and my husband died at say 32 when I went through a divorce.. I am sorry about the death of your spouse.. I cannot imagine and don't want to. I wish you peace, and happiness in your life..
 

CJ2008

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Curious...(I have not experienced neither the death of a spouse or a divorce, so really just trying to understand)

Would it make a difference if the comparison were phrased differently? Like...

for some people divorce can be as intense and grief stricken as a death...
for some people divorce can feel like a death...
 

smitcompton

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Hi,

I have been thru both events. Death brings an overwhelming sadness that eases over time. It is something we cannot control and so acceptance comes more easily, I think. Divorce is fraught with anger, anxiety, sadness, and a unending questioning of what went wrong. Both events stay with us, but divorce ranks and feels like a death as well. Death has many faces in life. All are tough.

Annette
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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CJ2008|1478268793|4093636 said:
Curious...(I have not experienced neither the death of a spouse or a divorce, so really just trying to understand)

Would it make a difference if the comparison were phrased differently? Like...

for some people divorce can be as intense and grief stricken as a death...
for some people divorce can feel like a death...
Yes - some people while not joyful, are relieved when their spouse dies (as in a cancer stricken spouse).. some people are relieved when they are divorced because it was a nightmare.

When I was thinking about this earlier I came to the conclusion that everyone is different, grief is personal, no one can judge. I can say that my grief at my first marriage's ending was intense, overwhelming and all encompassing and it changed me forever. Everyone is different..

peace!
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
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29,570
I think it's different for each person. For some they may grieve like it's a death... I get that.

For me it wasn't like a death. I have had so many deaths in my life. Brother, Father. Then I lost my Mom and my beloved MIL in the same week in September.. She's my ex MIL, but refuse to call her that.. Loved her beyond..

People can say how it was for them and that's ok. If your divorce was like a death to you, then that's how you feel and that's ok.

My divorce sucked, and I am beyond thrilled to be out of it. Took 4 years of my life. Mainly Ex had to fire his attorney after a year due to dementia.. I wish I could get paid back for the year that his attorney was unfit..

I will say Divorce is hard. And Tacori has every right to say it was like a death..

I know at times, I was like wow am grieving.. So no one can say how it should be..

Not starting a debate.. I love you all..
But having deaths, divorce.

I don't judge or lable...
 

House Cat

Ideal_Rock
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Rain,

I get it.

I would hug you if I could.

I wish we treated those who were grieving better. I wish we acknowledged their pain and gave them so much more support. A week or two is almost an insult.

I hope you are finding your way.

Hugs and love...
 

Tacori E-ring

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I have thought about this thread all day and how I wanted to respond. I think it is pretty aggressive to literally call someone out on their feelings. My motive behind my comments in the other thread were to provide support to the OP. PERIOD. I don't think it is fair for anyone to dissect one's comments, no matter what they do for a living. For me my divorce WAS similar to a death. That in no way should diminish another's pain or personal trauma. Please don't diminish mine. Part of me died. I do not feel comfortable going into details, as example like this is why PS does not always feel safe for *me.* However, my situation was very severe. Here is some of what I lost...I lost a city I love. I lost my friends. I lost my job. I lost my sense of security. I lost my home. I lost the first home my child knew. My child lost her friends. Her school. Her routine. Her father. I lost my self-esteem. I lost my dreams of what my family would be. I lost my safety at times. I lost trust. I lost faith. I lost 13 years of my life. I continue to cycle through the 5 stages of grief even years later. My child continues to grieve. I have PTSD. I had to completely rebuild my life and my child's life across the country. Bereavement? I had to use PTO to attend my own divorce hearing. I agree our society does not support grief. It also does not support divorce.

I am not saying this to compare *MY LIFE* with anyone else's. Pain is subjective and very personal. I resent that I have to even justify my own pain. That's not right. I do not know what you have been through (or anyone else here) so do not pretend you know what my life is like or how I feel. I can only imagine how painful it is for you. I would guess your need to start this thread is a sign of your continued pain. I hope you are able to heal and gain the support you need.
 

iluvcarats

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Divorce is a death of hopes and dreams, and often of trust. It is a huge loss. To say that one is worse than the other? Well I guess it depends on the person. But they both cause tremendous pain and grief, and they both suck. You can multiply zero by 10 or 10,000, but you still come up with the same answer.
 

rainwood

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You didn't need to justify your pain to me, Tacori, and I'm sorry my comments made you feel you needed to. I also understand the hurt it must have caused to write that. I totally get it.

What I've been trying to say - and maybe not very well - is that we shouldn't compare one event to another so then no one would feel like they have to justify or explain the severity of their particular experience. That's the heart of what I was trying to say.

And with that, it's best for me to bow out. And to everyone else who posted, it sounds like we PS'ers have gone through some terrible stuff and survived. Yay to all of us.
 

Tacori E-ring

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rainwood|1478304230|4093861 said:
You didn't need to justify your pain to me, Tacori, and I'm sorry my comments made you feel you needed to. I also understand the hurt it must have caused to write that. I totally get it.

What I've been trying to say - and maybe not very well - is that we shouldn't compare one event to another so then no one would feel like they have to justify or explain the severity of their particular experience. That's the heart of what I was trying to say.

And with that, it's best for me to bow out. And to everyone else who posted, it sounds like we PS'ers have gone through some terrible stuff and survived. Yay to all of us.
I respect your desire to walk away so don't feel the need to respond unless you wish. I said, "Divorce is really hard, no matter what the reason. It really is like a death. " I never said it was like the death of a spouse. I did NOT compare. I said it was like a death and I had to grieve. So while I felt judged by the purpose of the thread, I just want to make it crystal clear the meaning behind my words. I get how easy it is to take things personally, however, my POV was never about the death of a spouse.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Divorce absolutely can be like a death. I totally understood you, Tacori. The thing is, you never can really totally move on because that person will always be your daughter's father. I saw the devastation my brother-in-law experienced when his wife just decided she didn't want to be married anymore and left him and took their two little girls. It was like a death that lasted several years as he would drive up to 11 hours each way to see his girls every.single.weekend almost until they went to college. (He moved closer as soon as he could, and then she moved again to live closer to her parents in another state.)

This is obviously the first I have seen you talk about this, S, and I wish I could give you a big hug!

I would just like to validate that people have devastating pain in various ways and we cannot minimize their pain.
 

smitcompton

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Hi,

I would like to point out one thing. When a child or spouse dies other people do support you. You receive kindness, support, help, and caring most of the time. It really helps. Divorce does'n't illicit the same response from others. Some good friends and family may support you, but the emotions and problems of divorce are mainly yours to solve.

I know one woman, with five young children, whose husband just ran away and left her with nothing. She was a church goer, same church since childhood. No one offered to help her. She had to live with her mother, who was a good soul, and she slowly put her life in order. But, 20 yrs later all she could remember was that no one helped her. After all she was only divorced. Has refused for many yrs to go inside a church. No, a death gets more support.

Annette
 

Tacori E-ring

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I want to thank everyone who has supported me on this thread. :wavey: It sounds like any people experienced similar emotions after their own divorce. Pain certainly sucks in whatever form it takes. I have learned never to minimize someone's feelings. Even if I don't always understand where someone is coming from. I hope that is the takeaway from this thread. PS used to feel like a really supportive place.
 

Calliecake

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I'm sorry that many here have dealt with immeasurable pain. Sometimes the kindess and compassion shown by others is the only thing that helps us get to a better place. Pain is pain and I'm sorry Rainwood and Tacori for all you have been through. hugs.
 
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