Calling cushion experts

[badabling]

I saw this 2.79 old mine cushion, no cert but appraised at K, VS1. Does it look like a good cushion...there's something about it that I like but I'm a newbie and have no idea if it would be a good buy. Is it something worth investigating? OMC lovers and experts please advise.

 

[badabling]

Oops forgot the attachment!

 

[chrono]

Can you please post a larger picture, especially of the lower set? I cannot make any details out in those.

 

[diamondloveaffair]

I saw this 2.79 old mine cushion, no cert but appraised at K, VS1. Does it look like a good cushion...there's something about it that I like but I'm a newbie and have no idea if it would be a good buy. Is it something worth investigating? OMC lovers and experts please advise.

no grading report, skip the stone.

 

[badabling]

Chrono and diamondloveaffair... thank you for responding.

these are the best picture i could get... i thought i'd ask for more detailed pictures if it was worth pursuing.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I saw this 2.79 old mine cushion, no cert but appraised at K, VS1. Does it look like a good cushion...there's something about it that I like but I'm a newbie and have no idea if it would be a good buy. Is it something worth investigating? OMC lovers and experts please advise.

no grading report, skip the stone.

???????????

 

[CharmyPoo]

Buying an old stone is different than buying a newly cut stone. There are many factors to consider than simply thinking ... no report .. skip. You sure could miss out on a stunning old stone going through that method.

First of all, notice the ring is from 1st dibs so it is probably from a store. Find out if the stone has been sent to EGL-USA or GIA so you can determine how "trusted" the color/clarity ratings provided are. Obviously, you will need better photos of the ring. You should also confirm what type of return policy they have if you are not buying locally.

My opinion is that this stone has a lot of potential just based on the photos shown. The shape is square and symmetrical which is rare for old cut stones in a cushion shape. It has a lovely high crown with a tiny table. The facet pattern looks pretty but we need better photos. I mean these are just some signs that show it has potential ... you need more photos and perhaps seeing it live to make a determination. You have to see how much obstruction there is which we can't tell right now.

I found the listing and the photos look good. The vendor has some other nice pieces too. The price is also reasonable.

 

[Circe]

I don't consider myself a cushion expert, but I DO consider myself a vintage aficionado, and I second every word of Charmy's. None of the pieces I've bought have been certed. That's worked in my favor, as I would have paid two times what I did for most of them if they'd been officially designated. If you do enough research, you can find wonderful things on the vintage market. I haven't looked for the listing ... how much are they asking?

Generally, the rule for "false advertising" with diamonds is that it can be off by as much as three grades before it's bad enough to invalidate the terms. So if they're calling it a K VS1 with no cert, it could be, say, an N SI2. Would it still be a decent buy if it were?

 

[Draco]

That's worked in my favor, as I would have paid two times what I did for most of them if they'd been officially designated.

The only way you could prove that statement is if you got it certified by GIA or EGL-USA and then looked at comparables, In any case that is very unlikely to be the case, diamond dealers will take a risk on a grading report if it means they could sell for double.
I don't advise this kind of general advice to anyone, I prefer much more prudent caution on uncerted stones. I won't reject them automatically but without a grading report and comps it is very difficult for most to determine value which usually makes the situation advantageous to the seller.

Generally, the rule for "false advertising" with diamonds is that it can be off by as much as three grades before it's bad enough to invalidate the terms. So if they're calling it a K VS1 with no cert, it could be, say, an N SI2. Would it still be a decent buy if it were?

There is no enforceable law or rule like that an uncerted stones. They are sold without a grading report and the seller is free to "estimate" the grade without being held to how close it matches an actual grading report.

Uncerted stones are great for consumers who want to fool themselves into thinking they got a "deal" or "steal" but it is usually quite the opposite.It is possible that stone is sold for fair value but really the only way to be precise on the value is to make the sale contingent upon a lab grading report being within a certain range of Color and Clarity.

 

[Circe]

That's worked in my favor, as I would have paid two times what I did for most of them if they'd been officially designated.

The only way you could prove that statement is if you got it certified by GIA or EGL-USA and then looked at comparables, In any case that is very unlikely to be the case, diamond dealers will take a risk on a grading report if it means they could sell for double.
I don't advise this kind of general advice to anyone, I prefer much more prudent caution on uncerted stones. I won't reject them automatically but without a grading report and comps it is very difficult for most to determine value which usually makes the situation advantageous to the seller.

Generally, the rule for "false advertising" with diamonds is that it can be off by as much as three grades before it's bad enough to invalidate the terms. So if they're calling it a K VS1 with no cert, it could be, say, an N SI2. Would it still be a decent buy if it were?

There is no enforceable law or rule like that an uncerted stones. They are sold without a grading report and the seller is free to "estimate" the grade without being held to how close it matches an actual grading report.

Uncerted stones are great for consumers who want to fool themselves into thinking they got a "deal" or "steal" but it is usually quite the opposite.It is possible that stone is sold for fair value but really the only way to be precise on the value is to make the sale contingent upon a lab grading report being within a certain range of Color and Clarity.

Re: point the first, I'm comparing to the secondary market. Both the pieces with primary center-stones have been appraised by jewelers with Colorimeters and excellent reputations for being strict on clarity. I'm not advising people to run out there willy-nilly to trust the jeweler making the sale to work against his or her own best interest ... just to not discount vintage pieces on the basis of a lack of cert. Some stones can't be taken out of settings, some vintage pieces are being sold by private individuals rather than sellers, etc., etc. Doesn't make them bad bets automatically.

Re: point the second ... a fair point, but it's something most reputable dealers try to adhere to. So, if you can check out the dealer and find enough info to get a feel for their general policies, it can also be worth exploring.

BadaBling, I actually ran across this ring when I was looking for something else: I actually bought a piece from these guys in the past and returned it without a problem. They struck me as being on the high side of retail, but with a good selection and good customer service. Couldn't hurt to inquire.

 

[Draco]

Re: point the first, I'm comparing to the secondary market. Both the pieces with primary center-stones have been appraised by jewelers with Colorimeters and excellent reputations for being strict on clarity.

I really am not trying to step on your toes or question your purchase but I take exception to providing that kind of advice or validating a purchase in this way. I see so many consumers get "feel good" appraisals and then a shock years later when they go to sell.

A colorimeter is inherently inconsistent and that is why its results at GIA are checked by a team of human graders as well. In addition there is even less accuracy when a diamond is measured while still set and further if only the faceup color was measured instead of the body color upside down the results are subject to even greater error. In any case the opinion of an appraiser should never be a replacement for an actual grading report when determining value and it would be quite common for a good appraiser to be +/- 2 color grades off on a set piece depending upon what range on the scale the body color falls under and what set of master stones they have.

Re: point the second ... a fair point, but it's something most reputable dealers try to adhere to. So, if you can check out the dealer and find enough info to get a feel for their general policies, it can also be worth exploring.

Dealer or secondhand pricing is often based on their cost plus a markup, it doesn't mean they bought/consigned the piece for a fair wholesale price to begin with. I find it better to look at each piece individually based on its own merits not on the general reputation of the seller.

 

[Circe]

I find it better to look at each piece individually based on its own merits.

Cutting the quote to save on space ... couldn't agree with you more on the last part. I just think that when it comes to vintage pieces, certs are not always among those merits.

And, for that matter, I agree with you on on most of the rest. I freely admit that it can be a sandtrap for a lot of consumers, and that I'm a weird case (grew up in the biz, took the GIA diamond grading course, comfortable with the field, etc). Which is why I'm not recommending that people blindly purchase non-certed stones, or stones certed by questionable labs ... only saying that such stones can still be worth considering. If the buyer is comfortable with their own talent for assessment, on their own: if not, with the help of a qualified appraiser.

That said, I'm not sure what the dealer's buying/consigning policy has to do with this conversation, since it's on the other end of the equation. I'd have very different advice for a poster who wanted to sell than I do for one who's looking to buy.

 

[Draco]

Double Post

 

[Circe]

That said, I'm not sure what the dealer's buying/consigning policy has to do with this conversation, since it's on the other end of the equation. I'd have very different advice for a poster who wanted to sell than I do for one who's looking to buy.

Well what makes a reputable dealer of vintage stones? I'd hope that they would be offering a fair value proposition and would be representing what they are selling in an accurate and straightforward manner.

Transparent business practices, and a willingness to stand behind their merchandise.

And if I were talking to somebody who was selling, I wouldn't be telling them to go through a dealer at all. The business tends to work against consumers on both ends, so if you can sell directly, all the better. It's just that it's a lot easier to sell as a private citizen than it is to buy from a private citizen, assuming jewelry isn't a core competency.

 

[badabling]

Thank you all for responding!

I see what both Circe and Draco are saying and both of you have very valid points. Yes the stone is without a cert but I would not dismiss it for that reason alone and yes it does make me more wary of the store's self appraised grading. I am not looking for a steal just a good or should I say better price than buying from a diamond vendor such as GOG or ERD or any other PS vendors. I'm also aware that buying from the above mentioned dealers I'm paying a premium for my peace of mind but this is exactly why I turn to PSers for advice. This forum has been a great source of information and some members here like charmypoo, chrono, and many others I forget have been a wealth of information and have been very generous with sharing that information and their time, hence I post on this forum before making a purchase.

Circe: what did you think of the stone in person? Was the color and clarity correct? Was it a good stone?

I will enquire about their return policy. Only I do not live in the US and shipping to my country is expensive and time consuming.

 

[Circe]

Thank you all for responding!
...

Circe: what did you think of the stone in person? Was the color and clarity correct? Was it a good stone?

I will enquire about their return policy. Only I do not live in the US and shipping to my country is expensive and time consuming.

Sorry, miscommunication - I ran across it on their website when I was checking out their Mother's Day sale. It looked good to me from the photos, and worth exploring further ... which you already knew from your original sighting! I'd bet they're open on Mother's Day, worth giving them a call to check out the options ....

 

[Dreamer_D]

It would be nice if people interested in buying old cuts could just walk into a million stores and buy diamonds with lab reports, as they can with modern RBs and many fancies these days, too.

There are some vendors selling old cuts with reports and all the bells and whistles: Good Old Gold, Jewels by Erica Grace, and Old World Diamonds are a few. The benefits of buying from such vendors is accuracy of information and certainty about what you buy. The down side is that the diamonds cost much more than diamond bought from other sources and the diamonds have often (I would suggest usually) been repolished or recut in some way to clean up nicks and chips to the girdle (at best) or to "improve optics" with a full-body overhaul (at worst).

But many old cuts are offered by estate sellers who may specialize in diamonds, they are offered for private sale, or they are offered at pawn shops And in many of those cases, the sellers do not have accurate information about what they sell other than an "appraisal" of limited value, and in the majority of cases the diamonds are set into vintage mounts and sellers do not want to unset the stones. The benefits of this way of buying is sometimes a lower price (yes, I am very sure of this, the old cut market is decidedly different than the modern RB market) and greater assurance of an original, untouched cut stone (no guarantees though!). The downside is uncertainty about what you are buying.

So it is much too simplistic to say "pass" on any old cut with no lab report, at least at this present time in the market.

If you are buying from the second type of business -- an estate seller, a pawn shop, a private seller, or any other random source -- then you must do your own leg work to determine fair market value for the piece in question. A qualified appraiser is needed. From the vendor, all you can hope for is an unconditional 100% refund policy with at least a 7 day inspection period (ideally 14 days). Always get the policy in writing and always buy through PayPal or your credit card to ensure you are protected in the event the seller turns out to be a jerk. And always, buyer beware! You can get burned.

To your original question, I agree with Charmy's assessment though cannot speak to price as I did not see it. I want to know the made up measurements of the diamond and un-doctored photos would help. If the price is anywhere close to retail I expect a lab report and better photos. If no report I always assume old cuts are in the M-P color range because most rough from that era was in that rage. "K color" is a euphemism for t he M-P range I have found