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Calling all rock cutters!

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rstillin

Rough_Rock
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Jan 3, 2006
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I have become interested in diamond cutting lately. I have PS to thank for creating and scratching the itch (I love learning new things, and typically love the very technical aspects of my new studies... of course the side effects lately are burning blurry eyed evenings, periods of distraction at work, accompanied with loss of sleep).

I''ve been researching cut (a big focus of PS to those who have not spent more than 30 minutes on PS yet) and in going to B&M stores to validate what I read outside of this "virtual" setting I have observed a few interesting things. One being that most sales people are only sales people in big jewelry stores (If you know of any place in the D.C. area that offers experts beyond the typical I need to learn more!!!!). I have been told many interesting "facts" in my few short stints to B&M stores (I wish I lived near some of the B&M stores like GoG or Winfield''s -- loved reading about you Wink in the Who''s Who section).

Anyway, back to cutting. One of the "facts" I was told was that the level of difficulty in cutting perfect hearts and arrows symmetry in diamonds is only accomplished by about 6 cutters in the world. "Wow" I though, who knew that cutting diamonds was so difficult. I figured that the process had been automated by now, and product was probably hand finished after the cut process was completed. Of course I would expect as in any industry you have "artists" (pronounced the French way ;) out there creating wonderful cuts, but when it comes to $$$$$ a CAD/CAM machine is the way to go. But I''m no Bo Jackson.

After a little online research I have found that you can buy H&A CZ stones for less than $20. This tells me that the cutting process for CZ for ideal H&A symmetry does not cost more that $20 dollars to produce, and it would seem that once could assume that reproducing the symmetry in diamond could not be much more expensive (please correct me if you see flawed logic).

So this is where the Cut Nut and all the experts can educate me a bit. How are most diamonds cut these days?

Being an engineer, I would devise a machine that would scan a rough diamond for inclusion/imperfection mapping, run an algorithm that generated optimal finished product by looking at finished carat weight, clarity, and cut quality, to maximize the $$$ returned from each rough stone. The optimization scheme might sacrifice cut quality to maximize clarity and carat weight to produce the best return e.g. a 1.2ct SI1 "very good" cut, versus a .90 VS2 "super ideal" cut (plus a bunch of diamond chips :).

If this is how it is done, then any premium for "ideal" cuts should be due to rarity, not craftsmanship as the B&M stores I have visited have portrayed it. And if it is due to rarity, and machines can easily create "super ideals", is this just another example of price control in the diamond industry?
 
Date: 1/15/2006 8:57:28 AM
Author:rstillin


Being an engineer, I would devise a machine that would scan a rough diamond for inclusion/imperfection mapping, run an algorithm that generated optimal finished product by looking at finished carat weight, clarity, and cut quality, to maximize the $$$ returned from each rough stone. The optimization scheme might sacrifice cut quality to maximize clarity and carat weight to produce the best return e.g. a 1.2ct SI1 ''very good'' cut, versus a .90 VS2 ''super ideal'' cut (plus a bunch of diamond chips :).
There is a machine that does exackly that.
I believe you can even put in the cut quality your shooting for and it will take that into account.


http://www.octonus.ru/oct/products/

The polishing is done by hand but the pre-forming can be automated.
In the jounal section of PS is an artical by Garry with pictures of a modern cutting factory.
 
very interesting reading. So now that computers are taking over the cutting process, would you be willing to say that the "ideal" cut is no longer an issue of skill?
 

Computerized and robot equipment can only do as good a job as their programmers. The genius of the artisan is still there, it’s the techniques and the tools that have changed.


By the way, where did you get the statistic that there are only 6 cutters in the world capable of cutting hearts and arrows symmetry? This is not correct.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
I''ve gotten many interesting and seemingly incorrect tid-bits of "information" from several B&M stores, this particular "fact" came from a seller at a mall store, while talking about their branded H&A stones. She said only 6 places in the world can cut it... she might have been correct if she meant that only 6 places in the world do cut it (if it was some propriatary cut different somehow from other H&A stones).
 
But the artisans are no longer the cutters, they are the programmers? The bruting, and cutting can be accomplished by lasers. With the human element removed, precise and accurate cuts can be achieved at a much higher rate. Cutting a "super ideal" geometry would not cost more than a "good" geometry, the only thing to preclude an "ideal" geometry everytime would be factoring in the other qualities of the diamond that affect price e.g. clarity. Done by hand, the process may take more time and skill to get "right", driving the cost of an "ideal" cut higher.

Does this logic make sense.. or are there aspects of the process that I don''t know about that render this assessment flawed? e.g. there are no machines that cut the minor facets.
 

I think you’re working from a flawed premise. Specifically that the only reason that a cutter would choose to cut to something other than h&a is because they can’t.


The original material is a rock and it is as God made it. It’s up to the craftsman to make the most of what they are given. At the end, most diamonds are sold by weight. The weight lost during the manufacturing process is considerable and the cutter is trying to maximize money, not necessarily optics. This is what makes it a complicated decision. Will a smaller stone of h&a symmetry and ‘ideal’ proportions sell for enough of a premium to offset the weight loss and the premium that could be charged for a bigger stone? What is the best shape(s) to cut from a particular piece of material? Would cutting a stone, or a part of a stone into a less popular shape result in removing an inclusion or color center and therefore allow a premium for a better grading? There are many such decisions involved.


I agree that the skill set required has changed significantly in recent years and there are now elements of programming and robotics for a manufacturer to consider that weren’t an issue 30 years ago but I don’t see this as changing the fundamental issue other than perhaps adding a few more opportunities for specialization. It’s possible for a programmer in Russia to supply cutters in India with tools that weren’t available until relatively recently and the cutters need to adapt to using such tools if they want to remain competitive but I don’t see this as eliminating them from the process any more than the invention of the word processor has eliminated the need for skillful writers.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Once the cutting process becomes programmed to get the best cuts and minimize the loss of the rough, then the highly skilled hand diamond cutters who take many hours to plan and hand cut a diamond wil be less in demand, I would think.

If it is now possible to get maximum product and best cut by robots and machines which can be programmed for use by many people who have not been trained in the art of cutting and planning , will the price of well cut stones go down since the labor cost will be less and the technology imported and used in countries where labor cost is cheap?
How will these newer procedures affect the cost of diamonds since the great art of planning and hand cutting is being eliminated?

If you can get a well cut zircon for $20 why should the previous high cost of hand cutting a diamond still be factored into the price?
 
Date: 1/15/2006 11:51:37 AM
Author: rstillin
But the artisans are no longer the cutters, they are the programmers? The bruting, and cutting can be accomplished by lasers. With the human element removed, precise and accurate cuts can be achieved at a much higher rate. Cutting a ''super ideal'' geometry would not cost more than a ''good'' geometry, the only thing to preclude an ''ideal'' geometry everytime would be factoring in the other qualities of the diamond that affect price e.g. clarity. Done by hand, the process may take more time and skill to get ''right'', driving the cost of an ''ideal'' cut higher.

Does this logic make sense.. or are there aspects of the process that I don''t know about that render this assessment flawed? e.g. there are no machines that cut the minor facets.

RE: Lasers used in cutting.

Maybe one day the brillianteering can be done by lasers. Generally, the laser is used mostly for the primary sawing of the rough.

Unfortunately, readers of the forum assume that diamond charactersitics are all alike and that cutting the diamond will go the same always. This is absolutely not factual. Diamond crystals form in many shapes most of them very un-symmetrical.

Due to how the crystal must be oriented, adjustments for strain, the inclusions that could be cut out to improve the clarity, as well as areas of varying color tempered by retention of weight of the rough stone, how and where the sawing ( if needed ) is an issue that require planning and analysis of a human that is experienced in this field. In small stone this isn''t always the case, but in planning the shape and the marking of a piece of rough in large size stones is paramount.

Another issue is laser sawing may make a diamond very brittle. Using the diamond saw type equipment doesn''t do this. In the intial planning of how a stone is to be sawn, before the girdling occus some stone have to be cleaved. While this is not as prevalent currently, some stones have to be "parted" using the old method.

The location of where the rough is found is also a consideration. For instance, diamonds mined in south america are very different in their characterisitcs than diamonds mined elsewhere.

If you have an interest in cutting, I would suggest you go to the Tucson Gem Show, which is very shortly, and see the colored stone type cutting machines and the display of various colored stone cutting equipment. Colored stones are a lot easier to facet. This is a good introduction into learning cutting. It is also a lot less expensive to buy colored stone rough to "play" with than diamonds. It will give you a good introductory basis into the cutting procedures, and you''ll learn a lot from it.

Rockdoc
 

The premium associated with optically well performing stones is not primarily a function of the labor of the cutter. I’m told that the manufacturers cost of the actually cutting the stone is under $100/carat. The big reason that these stones cost extra is because of the extra weight loss associated with the premium cuts. A piece of rough may yield a 1.25ct. turnip and only a 0.92ct. ‘ideal’. Even if the cutter charges exactly the same either way, customers looking at the price listings are going to compare that .92 with other superficially similar .92’s with lesser cuts and see this as a premium price. Add to that the requirement that the cutter must send the premium cut stones to the more picky labs and the cutter is faced with producing a 1.25 H-SI1 and sell it at a ‘discount’ or a .92 I-SI2-ideal. What would YOU do?


When the rough supports it, they do cut it to super-ideal specs (or sell it to someone else who does) and they pay extra for rough that’s conducive to this. When it doesn’t, they don’t. These are smart people in a wickedly competitive business.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
So who is making the big money on diamonds? DeBeers? I am hearing that the jewelers here don''t have much mark-up, but if the cutting is very inexpensive, someone must be making the money somewhere along the line. I''m just curious.
 
Date: 1/15/2006 1:59:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
So who is making the big money on diamonds? DeBeers? I am hearing that the jewelers here don't have much mark-up, but if the cutting is very inexpensive, someone must be making the money somewhere along the line. I'm just curious.
yep DeBeers and friends.
The take the highest price they think the market will buy the finished diamond for, subtract a little for the vendor and a little for the cutter and thats what they sell the rough for.

On some rough they make a killing and on rough from some marginal/played out mines they make less.
 
Date: 1/15/2006 10:04:27 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/15/2006 8:57:28 AM
Author:rstillin


Being an engineer, I would devise a machine that would scan a rough diamond for inclusion/imperfection mapping, run an algorithm that generated optimal finished product by looking at finished carat weight, clarity, and cut quality, to maximize the $$$ returned from each rough stone. The optimization scheme might sacrifice cut quality to maximize clarity and carat weight to produce the best return e.g. a 1.2ct SI1 ''very good'' cut, versus a .90 VS2 ''super ideal'' cut (plus a bunch of diamond chips :).
There is a machine that does exackly that.
I believe you can even put in the cut quality your shooting for and it will take that into account.


http://www.octonus.ru/oct/products/
Even if this machine works without any flaws, the human decision factor remains. I might be faced with the choice of a 0.98 IF stone, compared to a 1.05 VS2. The 0.98 is slightly more valuable, but it will take me a year longer to sell an IF, compared to a VS2. The choice will depend on my mood of the day, I think.
 
Date: 1/15/2006 11:43:27 AM
Author: rstillin
I''ve gotten many interesting and seemingly incorrect tid-bits of ''information'' from several B&M stores, this particular ''fact'' came from a seller at a mall store, while talking about their branded H&A stones. She said only 6 places in the world can cut it... she might have been correct if she meant that only 6 places in the world do cut it (if it was some propriatary cut different somehow from other H&A stones).
The six places will probably be Belgium, Israel, India, China, Thailand and Sri Lanka. They have forgotten the U.S., Vietnam, Russia, Canada and Armenia. 6 in stead of 11 is not that exaggerated.
 
Date: 1/15/2006 11:51:37 AM
Author: rstillin
But the artisans are no longer the cutters, they are the programmers? The bruting, and cutting can be accomplished by lasers. With the human element removed, precise and accurate cuts can be achieved at a much higher rate. Cutting a ''super ideal'' geometry would not cost more than a ''good'' geometry, the only thing to preclude an ''ideal'' geometry everytime would be factoring in the other qualities of the diamond that affect price e.g. clarity. Done by hand, the process may take more time and skill to get ''right'', driving the cost of an ''ideal'' cut higher.

Does this logic make sense.. or are there aspects of the process that I don''t know about that render this assessment flawed? e.g. there are no machines that cut the minor facets.
The huge gap is between the very detailed scanning of the rough, and its results on one side, and the problem of translating that into any kind of cutting action. There is no robotic CAD-CAM-steered arm taking the stone out of the scanner, and setting it in the tool for laser-sawing, blade-sawing, bruting or cutting. It is a human hand doing that, and it takes away a lot of the precision, which scanning the stone just gave you.

Compare it to surgery. There are fantastic scanners, that can perfectly locate a body-problem that needs to be operated on. Are you prepared to step out of the scanner, and put yourself on the operating-table, with robots automatically performing the operation, based upon the scan?
 
Date: 1/15/2006 12:57:27 PM
Author: solange
Once the cutting process becomes programmed to get the best cuts and minimize the loss of the rough, then the highly skilled hand diamond cutters who take many hours to plan and hand cut a diamond wil be less in demand, I would think.

If it is now possible to get maximum product and best cut by robots and machines which can be programmed for use by many people who have not been trained in the art of cutting and planning , will the price of well cut stones go down since the labor cost will be less and the technology imported and used in countries where labor cost is cheap?
How will these newer procedures affect the cost of diamonds since the great art of planning and hand cutting is being eliminated?

If you can get a well cut zircon for $20 why should the previous high cost of hand cutting a diamond still be factored into the price?
There are no robots or automatic machines that currently can do the final cutting of a stone. On some stones, mostly high quality rough, a part of the process can be automated, in order to pre-shape the rough, and to take away a lot of the unnecessary rough diamond material.

One cannot compare to cutting CZ. CZ is a synthetic low-cost rough material, in which weight retention is not an issue. At the same time, the crystallographic structure of CZ is much simpler, and the material is less hard, which makes it a lot easier to cut. Since CZ-rough is uniform, and cutting is relatively easy, the road is open there for standard, cheap, high-quality cutting.

On the other hand, if you are organised to cut high-quality-cuts in diamonds, the operation might be cheaper than cutting mediocre-cuts. What takes the most talent, cutting perfect rounds where you aim for the same angle on each identical facet, or twisting and turning a round diamond in such a way, that it is slightly off-round, with each facet having a slightly different angle, where the facet points still meet?

Live long,
 
Date: 1/15/2006 1:41:39 PM
Author: denverappraiser

The premium associated with optically well performing stones is not primarily a function of the labor of the cutter. I’m told that the manufacturers cost of the actually cutting the stone is under $100/carat. The big reason that these stones cost extra is because of the extra weight loss associated with the premium cuts. A piece of rough may yield a 1.25ct. turnip and only a 0.92ct. ‘ideal’. Even if the cutter charges exactly the same either way, customers looking at the price listings are going to compare that .92 with other superficially similar .92’s with lesser cuts and see this as a premium price. Add to that the requirement that the cutter must send the premium cut stones to the more picky labs and the cutter is faced with producing a 1.25 H-SI1 and sell it at a ‘discount’ or a .92 I-SI2-ideal. What would YOU do?



When the rough supports it, they do cut it to super-ideal specs (or sell it to someone else who does) and they pay extra for rough that’s conducive to this. When it doesn’t, they don’t. These are smart people in a wickedly competitive business.



Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Very true, Neil, especially about the smart people.

Live long,
 
Date: 1/15/2006 1:59:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
So who is making the big money on diamonds? DeBeers? I am hearing that the jewelers here don''t have much mark-up, but if the cutting is very inexpensive, someone must be making the money somewhere along the line. I''m just curious.
As you say, the jewelers are not making much of a margin. At this very point in time, many are even going out of business, because the whole thing is not worth it.

The manufacturers (owners of the stones while cutting) are definitely working at a very low margin these last years, because of increased competition, and very high rough prices.

The cutters themselves, as you already found out, cannot be the big earners, either.

Neither are the diamond miners, be they De Beers'' or other producers. It is well documented that a number of De Beers'' mines are running at a loss, and the contracts of De Beers'' with most producing countries are getting less and less profitable for De Beers'' itself.

Maybe, it is exactly these diamond producing countries that are the bad boys around here, asking too much for their natural resource. Wrong once again, for example Botswana increased its turnover of diamonds considerably last year (in $-terms), but in their local currency, turnover actually decreased, while local costs went up.

Could it be that digging up diamonds just is the biggest costs associated with diamonds? I am not sure, but knowing that a lot of known diamond deposits remain untouched because the cost of digging them up does not allow profitable extraction, it is a very high possibility. If you do not like that, be my guest, I know a very nice area in Guinea, where diamonds can be found at a depth of only 20 meters. Feel free to start digging, each tonne of material that you take out (after you have removed the non diamondiferous layer of 20 meters) will yield you about 1 Ct of rough diamonds. On average. If you are extremely lucky, that 1 Ct. will be one stone of high quality shape, colour and clarity, and we will gladly cut you the biggest possible 0.30 Ct-stone out of that.

Live long,
 
Date: 1/15/2006 2:10:57 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/15/2006 1:59:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
So who is making the big money on diamonds? DeBeers? I am hearing that the jewelers here don''t have much mark-up, but if the cutting is very inexpensive, someone must be making the money somewhere along the line. I''m just curious.
yep DeBeers and friends.
The take the highest price they think the market will buy the finished diamond for, subtract a little for the vendor and a little for the cutter and thats what they sell the rough for.

On some rough they make a killing and on rough from some marginal/played out mines they make less.
Still, they could do better, by producing less. Because of less supply with identical demand, the average sales-price would go up, and they would make even more than a killing on that first rough.
 
Okay, so the real flaw (about an I3 I would say) in my logic would be that CZ cutting is similar to Diamond cutting. Producing perfect H&A symmetry (by hand cutting, or at least hand brillanteering, requires a much higher level of man-hours, hence a $20 H&A CZ versus whatever is costs on a rough diamond. The other flaw (maybe only SI1 grading here) is that the real "cost" of the cut is the waste in the cutting process (virtually nil for CZ where flaws are not a factor, and the rough is cheap).

So would you say the increased cost to consumer for "ideal" cuts are due more to the rarity of finding an optimal cutting solution that included "ideal" geometry of a diamond, or degree of difficulty cutting an "ideal" geometry over a plain "good" cut?

The store I was referring to made it seem like the sheer difficulty of cutting such perfect symmetry was the reason, not the rarity of finding a rough that would support it. My guess now is it''s not a cut and dry answer, so places cannot cut H&A even if they wanted, and those that can only do so to satisfy what the market will support for "ideal" cuts (as Mr. Slegers'' points out with the IF diamond example).


As for markup and profit, I just returned from two visits to B&M diamond sellers (higher end places with really expensive real estate and probably 100''s of millions in inventory). Each of these retailers to my astonishment actually answered my question about markup. The first retailer said 2.5, and the second 2.2. These places are buying in very high volume, and are marking up Items 220% to 250%. Of course overhead costs are high; I am not sure what their profit margin is after expenses.
 

These places are buying in very high volume, and are marking up Items 220% to 250%. Of course overhead costs are high; I am not sure what their profit margin is after expenses.


Very good. Overhead of a major store is very expensive.

Many internet dealers operate on less than 10% markup - of course, most of them do not stock many stones and sell most of their stones sight unseen from wholesale inventory list of their suppliers.

Perry
 
Date: 1/15/2006 5:26:39 PM
Author: rstillin

So would you say the increased cost to consumer for ''ideal'' cuts are due more to the rarity of finding an optimal cutting solution that included ''ideal'' geometry of a diamond, or degree of difficulty cutting an ''ideal'' geometry over a plain ''good'' cut?

Yeah, right... I am quite sure there are and will be as many H&A as buyers willing to pay for them. Maybe it takes a bit to upgrade cutting procedures or shift production between competitors with different specializations - but... It doesn''t sound like the difficulty is to be explained with any sort of ''rarity'' argument.

The cutting solutions in your post, remind me of the cut guidelines released by AGS and GIA... As long as there is a standard procedure to grade cut, I wonder if for any diamonds but the very valuable (thinking of truly exceptional size or color) individual decisions are truly independent of such demand factors (i.e. prescriptions for cut grading and demand for the respective product).

Around this forum, you may find earlier threads explaining why larger ideal cut diamonds are scarce (demand factors) and a little about the manufacturing of these stones (throughout Garry''s posts, and a couple of his articles in the journal here an his website).

Hope this helps.


Now, I would surely understand why you would want your diamond to be rare and special in some way. I am afraid that is up to you to give it such meaning after passing rather mundane technical quality checks
38.gif
. Diamonds make than easy somehow
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H&A CA vs. H&A Diamonds


Not comparable between the two.

The CZ doesn''t have graining or orientation requirements. Taking a weight loss on a CZ is insignificant as the rough material is not pricey like diamond is.

There isn''t a graining situation to deal with.

The proportions for cutting a CZ with H&A is different from that of diamond, it is an entirely different R.I. You don''t have to have an exacting amount of symmetry with a CZ as you would with a diamond.

CZ is much softer and thus much faster to cut.

GIA & AGS who would grade the diamond is very fussy about the polish and symmetry grade, where with CZ they are not graded by anyone that matters ( there is the Lindenwold Lab that grades CZ''s but all the reports are the same )

That is why you can cut an H&A CZ for $ 20.00 which cannot be duplicated in diamond.

Rockdoc
 
I think you will get a chuckle out of this. I was in a high end B&M today getting my ''bling-fix'', and a saleswoman was selling a young couple an engagement ring. First the young man asked if the diamond was a ''conflict diamond'' and the saleswoman said "There is absolutely no way of knowing." Then he asked where it was cut and she said "Today all diamonds are cut in either Israel or India. If it''s a high quality diamond, it came from Israel, because in India they only do low quality and tiny diamonds." Oooooh. !
 
paintergirl:

There is more than a grain of truth to those statements in the jewelry store - and depending on where the store was getting its goods - they could be dead on for that store.

Historically India developed its diamond industry by cutting the stones that no one else wanted to cut - which included the smalller stones (less than 1/3 carat) and lowsy peices of rough that could only reasonably be cut into low quality stones (low profit margin in small stones and badly shaped rough - but the rough was cheap). India is to be commended in that they took those small stones and mastered the abilities and skills necessary to produce small high quality cut diamonds from them.

Larger stones tend to be cut in Belgium and Isreal (and some in a few other places). I do not believe that even today that India gets many large stones to cut.

Thus, it may be entirely possible - even likely that the store is linked with suppliers that provided larger stones cut in Isreal, and lower quality and small high quality stones cut in India.

As an example - I do believe that WhiteFlash has their ACA diamonds sourced from a specific Isreal company (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Of course, in general Diamonds are cut in 11 countries; but most diamonds in the US are probably only cut in 3 or 4 of these (with a few trickling in from the other countries).


Perry
 
Date: 1/15/2006 7:46:52 PM
Author: perry


As an example - I do believe that WhiteFlash has their ACA diamonds sourced from a specific Isreal company (someone correct me if I am wrong).


Perry

Belgium

A lot of the truely huge diamonds are still cut in NY by a handfull of people.
 
In addition,

A lot of very, very fine diamonds are cut in Puerto Rico.

Rockdoc
 
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