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Calling all GIA VG symmetry owners with pics

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blingergrrrl

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I was wondering if anyone who owned diamonds with a GIA cert grade of VG for their symmetry had pics of the diamond to show? ie. what pattern does the diamond show when looking down at it? Just curious if there is a real difference between a VG and EX symmetry?

Thanks!
 

belle

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i think you may be confusing optical symmetry (think hearts and arrows) with physical symmetry (meet points) that labs grade. you won''t be able to readily tell the difference between the top grades in physical, lab graded symmetry.
 

blingergrrrl

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Date: 2/6/2007 1:10:43 PM
Author: belle
i think you may be confusing optical symmetry (think hearts and arrows) with physical symmetry (meet points) that labs grade. you won''t be able to readily tell the difference between the top grades in physical, lab graded symmetry.
Ok thanks, that''s kinda answers my question...But to have a H&A pattern, would you need a high grade of physical symmetry, and would a high grade of physical symmetry give a distinct pattern of optical symmetry (not necessarily H&A)? I thought that that the 2 were at least related...
 

blingergrrrl

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Oh thanks belle, I was trying to find a link on the GIA website but to no avail!
 

belle

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you''re welcome! that should answer all of your questions (and more!)
good for you doing your research! i have no doubt you will find a lovely stone.
 

blingergrrrl

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Thanks! And to answer my own question:

"Grading the symmetry of round brilliant cut diamonds at GIA (USA)
The Gemological Institute of America (GIA) also divides finishing grading into symmetry grading and polishing grading (GIA Diamond Grading, 1993). When a symmetry distortion affects the appearance of the diamond or indicates some special efforts of the manufacturer willing to save the diamond weight, such a distortion is considered as a proportioning flaw. The noticed major symmetry distortions are listed in that worksheet area meant for proportioning (which is not graded), while minor ones are referred to finishing. Main symmetry distortions that may be found in a round brilliant cut diamond include both those always considered minor and those which, under certain conditions, can be considered major. These distortions may be of the following types:
- off-center culet;
- off-center table;
- misshapen facets;
- the table is not a regular octagon;
- non-parallelism of the table and the girdle;
- out-of-round girdle outline;
- misalignment of crown and pavilion facets;
- facets not properly pointed;
- wavy girdle;
- additional facets (naturals and extra facets).
The symmetry is tested first with a 10x loupe, then with the naked eye. All the symmetry distortions, which evidently affect the appearance of the stone, are considered major. The more frequent of these are the following:
- table or culet noticeably off-center, observed through a 10x loupe;
- girdle outline out-of-round, observed with the unaided eye;
- evident non-parallelism of the table and the girdle or evident waviness of the girdle, observed through a 10x loupe;
There are the following symmetry grades: “Excellent”, “Very good”, “Good”, “Fair” and “Poor”. However, such a grade concerns only the minor symmetry distortions, so the major ones should not be graded or divided into any classes. Nevertheless, if a diamond has at least one major symmetry distortion, its symmetry can be graded only as “Fair” or “Poor”. "

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/symmetry/4.htm


 

Serg

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Date: 2/6/2007 1:02:35 PM
Author:blingergrrrl
I was wondering if anyone who owned diamonds with a GIA cert grade of VG for their symmetry had pics of the diamond to show? ie. what pattern does the diamond show when looking down at it? Just curious if there is a real difference between a VG and EX symmetry?

Thanks!
VG Symmetry example
Ex GIA symmetry example

Unhelpful examples.
 

blingergrrrl

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Date: 2/6/2007 2:03:38 PM
Author: Serg




Date: 2/6/2007 1:02:35 PM
Author:blingergrrrl
I was wondering if anyone who owned diamonds with a GIA cert grade of VG for their symmetry had pics of the diamond to show? ie. what pattern does the diamond show when looking down at it? Just curious if there is a real difference between a VG and EX symmetry?

Thanks!
VG Symmetry example
Ex GIA symmetry example

Unhelpful examples.
Hmmm, hard to tell between the symmetries as the cut is a VG with a VG symmetry and the 2nd stone is an EX cut with EX symmetry...But nice to see the VG VG as I am thinking of getting a stone with that rating (but with a 0.8 on the HCA as opposed to the 5.4 rating the example got).
 

Rhino

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Hi blingerrgirl,

Here is a face up view in a common viewing environment of what an H&A diamond looks like (meets both GIA Ex and AGS Ideal standards) alongside a stone that qualifies as a GIA VG/AGS 5 for light performance because of shallow pavilion angles 40.3 degrees. This is one example of an Ex with superior optical symmetry alongside a VG with more chaotic symmetry however hte difference in appearance is not due to the symmetry but the shallow pavilion angles. Hope this helps.

br189br173diffuse.jpg
 

Rhino

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Conversly here is a GIA EX/AGS Id with superior optical symmetry alongside another GIA Vg cut grade but this time due to steep angled proportions (pavilion angle at 41.8 degrees).

Peace,

giaexvsgiavgsteep.jpg
 

DBM

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Date: 2/6/2007 4:52:09 PM
Author: Rhino
Conversly here is a GIA EX/AGS Id with superior optical symmetry alongside another GIA Vg cut grade but this time due to steep angled proportions (pavilion angle at 41.8 degrees).

Peace,
Hi Rhino,

Which one of the two is the EX?
 

Rhino

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My apologies for not being more clear. In each graphic the Ex is on the left.
 

DBM

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I see. Thx. I honestly would have said the right one is a nicer cut but maybe it''s just the glare or maybe the contrast of dark to white in the EX makes it more favorable to the eyes.
 

lumpkin

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This is my GIA VG/VG. Not all the arrows are present at the same time unless it''s held at just the right angle.
 

lumpkin

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Blingergirrl, I just wanted to add that for me personally, perfect symmetry is not as important as overall brilliance and fire. I actually like my diamond to be just a little off because it seems "machined" if everything is perfect. ALTHOUGH, I am torn when I see some of the beautiful AGS0s on the board. In real life, though, during normal wear, I find my diamond to be really satisfying to me.

Neil Beatty said yesterday during his open session that he''s very mathematical and the ID/ID of an AGS0 really appeals to him. So if you are really turned on by seeing the arrows aligned in a certain way with your prongs and really feel that that gives you a more well crafted piece, I don''t think you will be happy with a GIA VG/VG. I really like mine, though.
It''s very fiery and brilliant.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/6/2007 4:52:09 PM
Author: Rhino
Conversly here is a GIA EX/AGS Id with superior optical symmetry alongside another GIA Vg cut grade but this time due to steep angled proportions (pavilion angle at 41.8 degrees).

Peace,
Rhino, you are sure its not the other way around? I would have thought the second image you posted (41.8 deg. vg) is the one with the shalower pavilion because of its bright area around the culet.

Maybe its just the way the picture was shot...
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 5:38:59 PM
Author: DBM
I see. Thx. I honestly would have said the right one is a nicer cut but maybe it''s just the glare or maybe the contrast of dark to white in the EX makes it more favorable to the eyes.
And that is where personal preferences come into play. There are what are considered steep angled combos, not quite as steep as that example but similar that do make Ex grade that folks have expressed favor towards.

This graphic here is of 2 GIA Ex''s alongside each other. One that is typical to what we generally stock (on the left) and another appearance that makes the Ex grade as well. Lord willing if I find time this weekend I''d like to conduct a survey to see which consumers prefer most. I imagine a certain percentage may pick the stone on the right but at this point I don''t know yet. It''ll be fun to find out.


2giaexs.jpg
 

lumpkin

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Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG's that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.


ETA: Never mind, Rhino. I didn't read closely enough to see that they were all different comparisons. SORRY.
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 5:48:14 PM
Author: lumpkin
Blingergirrl, I just wanted to add that for me personally, perfect symmetry is not as important as overall brilliance and fire. I actually like my diamond to be just a little off because it seems ''machined'' if everything is perfect. ALTHOUGH, I am torn when I see some of the beautiful AGS0s on the board. In real life, though, during normal wear, I find my diamond to be really satisfying to me.

Neil Beatty said yesterday during his open session that he''s very mathematical and the ID/ID of an AGS0 really appeals to him. So if you are really turned on by seeing the arrows aligned in a certain way with your prongs and really feel that that gives you a more well crafted piece, I don''t think you will be happy with a GIA VG/VG. I really like mine, though.
It''s very fiery and brilliant.
You have a beautiful stone lumpkin and I would agree with you. The quality of brightness and fire in a diamond should take precedence over optical symmetry. While I am a nut for optical precision, I''ve seen diamonds optically precise yet lack in their optical characteristics. I value high craftsmanship but if face up appearance is impacted, I''ll take the more common optical symmetry with higher brightness/fire/scintillation any day.

Peace,
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.
 

lumpkin

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:01:13 PM
Author: Rhino

You have a beautiful stone lumpkin and I would agree with you. The quality of brightness and fire in a diamond should take precedence over optical symmetry. While I am a nut for optical precision, I''ve seen diamonds optically precise yet lack in their optical characteristics. I value high craftsmanship but if face up appearance is impacted, I''ll take the more common optical symmetry with higher brightness/fire/scintillation any day.

Peace,
Thank, Rhino.

I would have to say that having both quality of brightness and fire along with optical precision would make my heart go pitter patter, too! If given the choice between having a more random pattern that was visually brilliant and firey with one that was also optically precise, it would be a very tough decision for me, all other things being equal (price, size, color, clarity). It would probably have to be done on a stone by stone comparison, and I don''t think I could say I would ALWAYS choose one or the other....Weird, but I think, for me, true.
 

lumpkin

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:07:57 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.

I think no matter how precise the art of diamond cutting becomes, there is always going to be room for different preferences, I suppose. I think it may still depend on a diamond by diamond comparison and even with precision, the specs don''t always tell the whole story. It can be so subtle and undefinable what makes someone prefer one diamond over another when they are both very beautiful.
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:19:32 PM
Author: lumpkin

Date: 2/6/2007 6:07:57 PM
Author: Rhino


Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.

I think no matter how precise the art of diamond cutting becomes, there is always going to be room for different preferences, I suppose. I think it may still depend on a diamond by diamond comparison and even with precision, the specs don''t always tell the whole story. It can be so subtle and undefinable what makes someone prefer one diamond over another when they are both very beautiful.
This may sound weird coming from a techno junkie lumpkin but its why I get aggravated sometimes when I see folks place too heavy an emphasis upon any one technology. I am for technology and extracting as much useful data as possible from it but there is no single technology that can predict what you or I may prefer when it comes to diamond appearance. Most of us are looking for a quick fix ... a tool to tell us what and what not to buy. The tools and technologies are excellent for telling us what constitutes the rarest (in many cases) and there certainly is value in rarity, but as much as we''d like to put our finger on what constitutes best, that is still for the buyer to decide and I''d recommend nothing short of their own 2 eyes. Of course there are many instances when rare and best coincide but I can think of many cases wherein it doesn''t too. We''re on the same frequency.


All the best,
 

blingergrrrl

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Date: 2/6/2007 5:48:14 PM
Author: lumpkin
Blingergirrl, I just wanted to add that for me personally, perfect symmetry is not as important as overall brilliance and fire. I actually like my diamond to be just a little off because it seems 'machined' if everything is perfect. ALTHOUGH, I am torn when I see some of the beautiful AGS0s on the board. In real life, though, during normal wear, I find my diamond to be really satisfying to me.

Neil Beatty said yesterday during his open session that he's very mathematical and the ID/ID of an AGS0 really appeals to him. So if you are really turned on by seeing the arrows aligned in a certain way with your prongs and really feel that that gives you a more well crafted piece, I don't think you will be happy with a GIA VG/VG. I really like mine, though.
It's very fiery and brilliant.
I completely agree!! That's why I'm looking at the GIA VG cuts but using the HCA (I realize now it's not all inclusive). Around here, most stones are 0.5ct and nowhere near ideal so I really haven't even seen an ideal cut in person
. My boyfriends got the idea in his head for at least 1ct, but we are compromising in the middle (I'm trying to get the most sparkle for the best deal we can). I'm already ahead of the game IMHO, and I don't think I need perfect symmetry to have a perfect diamond (for me).

Rhino: I can tell which stone is the EX in both pics, :) but if I can ask what the price difference would be between the 2 stones in the second picture? I might lean a little more towards the left stone, but I do think the one on the right is really nice too! And thanks for the pictures!!
 

blingergrrrl

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:07:57 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.
Well I can definitely say that I like the one on the left better!!!
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:29:58 PM
Author: blingergrrrl

Date: 2/6/2007 5:48:14 PM
Author: lumpkin
Blingergirrl, I just wanted to add that for me personally, perfect symmetry is not as important as overall brilliance and fire. I actually like my diamond to be just a little off because it seems ''machined'' if everything is perfect. ALTHOUGH, I am torn when I see some of the beautiful AGS0s on the board. In real life, though, during normal wear, I find my diamond to be really satisfying to me.

Neil Beatty said yesterday during his open session that he''s very mathematical and the ID/ID of an AGS0 really appeals to him. So if you are really turned on by seeing the arrows aligned in a certain way with your prongs and really feel that that gives you a more well crafted piece, I don''t think you will be happy with a GIA VG/VG. I really like mine, though.
It''s very fiery and brilliant.
I completely agree!! That''s why I''m looking at the GIA VG cuts but using the HCA. Around here, most stones are 0.5ct and nowhere near ideal so I really haven''t even seen an ideal cut in person
. My boyfriends got the idea in his head for at least 1ct, but we are compromising in the middle (I''m trying to get the most sparkle for the best deal we can). I''m already ahead of the game IMHO, and I don''t think I need perfect symmetry to have a perfect diamond (for me).

Rhino: I can tell which stone is the EX in both pics, :) but if I can ask what the price difference would be between the 2 stones in the second picture? I might lean a little more towards the left stone, but I do think the one on the right is really nice too! And thanks for the pictures!!
No prob. Glad to be of some help. Let me ask for clarification ms. blingerrrrl.

You mentioned that you''re looking at GIA VG''s in symmetry, then mention VG''s in cut. Did you know it is possible to get a GIA Ex in cut that has VG polish & symmetry if you''re looking to shave expense but not at the expense of the optics?

GIA allows "very good" polish and symmetry in their Ex grade because polish and symmetry grades of VG do not impact the optical properties of brightness, fire and scintillation. Perhaps this is the route you may want to consider. Then again, depending on the budget he may well be able to afford the triple X grade. I''d have to know details which I''m not positive can be discussed here between a consumer and a vendor.

Peace,
 

Rhino

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:37:09 PM
Author: blingergrrrl

Date: 2/6/2007 6:07:57 PM
Author: Rhino


Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.
Well I can definitely say that I like the one on the left better!!!
It''s a very good chance then that you too would not prefer shallow AGS 5/GIA VG angled combos. Too much darkness for me personally.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 2/6/2007 6:07:57 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/6/2007 5:58:01 PM
Author: lumpkin
Rhino, do you happen to have any GIA VG''s that score really well on the HCA? If you could put one of those next to an AGS0 it might be interesting to discuss symmetry vs overall performance. I wish I could remember where but I think there have been threads about really brilliant but not firey, or firey but not brilliant, etc. I know that the AGS0s have both fire and brilliance, but probably not all the GIA EX with EX/EX do. Any examples of those? Just curious.
It''s funny you should ask this. The very first graphic I posted is one I use in my article covering the strengths/limitations to the HCA. It''s a point of contention I have with it as the first graphic I posted is of a diamond that is a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal that gets an HCA of 2.3 (the diamond on the left). The diamond alongside of it gets an HCA of 1.5 and is a GIA VG/AGS 5 because of light performance. Garry has a preference for shallow angled combos that I don''t always share. For me it really depends on the angle combos used. Some shallow angled combos look fine to me but not all of them do. That stone in the first graphic on the right is an example of one and is a good example of a diamond that lacks brightness/contrast/static scintillation yet does have good fire.
As well you know Rhino the stone you used as an example is a very very poor comparison because of many other factors.
Sometimes I am amazed at how ''shallow'' you can be when it comes to your ''research''. (pun intended)
 
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