calculating a stone''s resale value from the lame GIA report

[clueless_in_boston]

Hi folks! Just wanted to say thanks for all the information ya''ll provide to the net. It''s a great service. When I eventually get my stone appraised, I will feel very confident in using members of this forum, or leveraging other recommended vendors.

Here is my situation: I''m looking at buying a used stone from various sources (newspaper, ebay, craigslist). I''ve been exclusively looking for GIA/AGS certed bling - possibly EGL US certed stones only. I''ve been using the HCA advisor to weed out stones so I don''t waste gas and time looking at them.

Here is my current problem: The old style GIA certs don''t give crown and pavillion angle information. I know this has been discussed before, but I can''t seem to find any concrete information if the data captured in the old style GIA certs are adequate to calculate crown/pavillion angles. For example:

========
Report Type: GIA Diamond Grading Report
Date of Issue: March 09, 2004
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.54 - 6.60 x 3.99 mm
Carat Weight: 1.05
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: VS2
Proportions:
Depth: 60.7 %
Table: 58 %
Girdle: Medium, Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: NoneComments: Pinpoints are not shown. Surface graining is not shown.
===========

One would hope with the above information that the cut is going to be a good one, but that is not gauranteed if I understand things correctly. That said, I realize that members of this forum can give an approximation of the stone''s resale value (i''m looking for wholesale minus 10%-25% as documented in the resale FAQ). Any thoughts? I know you guys can put a guestimate on this based on even the lame GIA cert data above. I would look for three estimates - one of a middle of the road good GIA cut, one of a middle of the road GIA very good cut, and one of a borderline GIA very good/excellent cut. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[enbcfsobe]

In some cases, you can use the GIA report number to do a lookup on GIA''s website. Sometimes there is additional information, including crown and pav angles, listed on the lookup. This is not considered part of the cert, and I have no idea how it gets added, but I found it was sometimes there and, when it was, it was helpful.
Other than that I think you''d have to take it to an appraiser with Sarin or other measuring equipment to determine the exact angles.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 6/13/2007 12:37:57 PM
Author: enbcfsobe
In some cases, you can use the GIA report number to do a lookup on GIA''s website. Sometimes there is additional information, including crown and pav angles, listed on the lookup.

Here''s the link for Report Check: http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/

I''d think a 2004 report stands a good chance of having the info stored.

 

[clueless_in_boston]

Hi folks. Thanks for the info. That data I pulled was from the GIA reportcheck website. I also have a scanned image of the paper cert which has the same exact information. (i.e. nothing on crown/pavillion whatsoever).

 

[belle]

welcome c_i_b

as others have pointed out, report check is your best option for finding the all important c/p angles. they cannot be calculated and their importantance is significant in performance, so it is worthwhile to make sure you get them.

you can get pricing comparisons of different diamond attributes by using the ''pricescope your diamond'' search above.

best of luck!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 6/13/2007 12:53:15 PM
Author: clueless_in_boston
Hi folks. Thanks for the info. That data I pulled was from the GIA reportcheck website. I also have a scanned image of the paper cert which has the same exact information. (i.e. nothing on crown/pavillion whatsoever).

You looked over at the diagram/plot of the stone, right? That is where the crown and pavilion angles are located, not necessarily in that list of data.

 

[clueless_in_boston]

folks - unless I''m missing something - there is nothing about crown/pavillion angles on this GIA report. Would anyone be so kind as to give an approximation of wholesale - 20%, assuming a GIA very good cut? I''m thinking around $3400.

 

[enbcfsobe]

If it's not on the physical report and not on reportcheck, I think the only way to get the measurements is with the approprite machinery to measure it for you.
Before going through all that trouble, try taking a look through an idealscope. that should give you some clue as to whether this is a good performer or not.
I don't know much about "wholesale" pricing (other than that people who say they're "wholesalers" rarely seem to sell at the listed wholesale prices...), but you can check out the Price Stats function under the Prices tab -- that should help, although you don't know enough about the cut to determine where it would fall in the AGA scale that tool uses.
Also, I'm not sure that diamonds frequently resell at anywhere near their wholesale value -- there are a lot of discussions on resales if you put that in the search function.

ETA: Actually, looking at that function, the expected price, even at the lowest cut grade, looks like it would come out closer to $4000ish even accounting for a discount for it being EGL. Do consider that unless the diamond has an inscription or you can see and verify the inclusions yourself, it would be very hard to tell if what some joe shmoe off ebay or craigslist was giving you was what the paper said. Paper is much cheaper than diamonds....

 

[clueless_in_boston]

You''re point about the idealscope and ..."what is wholesale price for $200 Alex" is well taken. I''ve got an idealscope on order... the basic one for $25.

I''m going by the pricing FAQ that states fleabay/craigslist should yield 10%to25% off WHOLESALE, but I''m just gonna wing it and say 20% off the lowest priceline price with a "good" assumption on cut. That should be somewhare in that 10-25% wholesale range.

However, what I''m finding with fleabay and craigslist (throw out all the dealers) is that people paid mucho dinero at their local jewler and figure a 10% discount to RETAIL will get them a buyer. It''s only after many months do they realize where the used stone market really is. In other words, I''ll probably be buying for a pricescope vendor anyway.

 

[enbcfsobe]

An IS is a great tool, esp. if you''re trying to buy from a B&M or other local seller. If you''d like to try buying locally, don''t discount your non-chain local jewelers. Some of them are quite willing to source stones to your specs and some will even sell at competitive prices (compared to online). It is, unfortunately, a crapshoot as to who will help you and who won''t. If you live in a near a major city someone on PS can likely direct you to a decent option or two.

 

[denverappraiser]

What is this ‘wholesale’ value that you are referring to?

There’s not nearly the benchmark that you seem to be expecting. What most folks mean by this is the price that dealers pay for their merchandise but, unfortunately, this isn’t a fixed number. It will vary by as much as a factor of 2 depending on details like the credit terms extended to the jeweler, the general availability of similar goods in the marketplace, the urgency of the both the buyer and seller to make the deal and similar things that have nothing to do with the gemological properties of the stone at all. The prices paid by dealers to other dealers for a particular stone will vary by at least 25% depending on these details. You don’t have enough information to make the assumption of Very Good cut. It may be, but don’t assume it.

Allow me to recommend a different benchmark. Use the Pricescope list. 1.05 VS2/H/GIA without cut grading data from the dealers here is being offered at retail here for about $5000. With more information it goes up to about $5,700.

What is ‘resale’ value?

As with the above, this will depend on what marketplace you’re talking about. For most consumers it means the price that they could reasonably expect to realize in a non-professional sale either to a dealer for resale or directly to another consumer. Fortunately you mentioned your market of interest is ebay/craigslist. A quick look there produces lots of people trying to sell similar goods and precious few who are actually getting it. Ebay makes it difficult to research actual sales and craigslist makes it impossible but I see lots of stones with descriptions sort of like that where the sellers are trying to get $3k-$4k and aren’t getting any bids. Here''s a 0.81 G/VS2/GIA that supposedly actually got $2650 gross for a stone where the similar offers here are about $3,200 so, in this case, ebay resale seems to be about 80% of the PS prices (Note: Using ebay for comparables is dicey. We don’t know the accuracy of the description, whether the deal actually went through, whether there were shill bidders, whether the bidder returned it etc.)

As mentioned, the vast majority of ebay auctions for items like this, especially for non-professional sellers seem to expire without a single bid. This could be because of bad advertising, too high a reserve, or any variety of other reasons including just bad timing or bad luck but expecting to realize that 80% figure in this particular marketplace seems to be a bit high.


I realize, of course, that I didn’t answer your question but hopefully that gives you a methodology to use to answer it for yourself. It’s a matter of research. In the end, it’s all about being sure you understand the details of the question.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[gg21]

I think one thing you seem to be overlooking on this diamond is that it is a 60.7% depth and 68% table.

 

[gg21]

ACK! nix that. I guess it is a 58% table, but man on that picture it sure does look like a 68