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Buying my 2.03 F VS2 AGS000 H&A

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afriend

Rough_Rock
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I spent 6 weeks educating myself before buying a diamond and am now engaged. Here's what I learned (contrary opinions are also appreciated):

1) Buy a round brilliant (RB)

If you or your girlfriend fall in love with fancy cuts, then go for it. But nothing will reflect more light than an RB, it holds value the best, and looks great in every imaginable kind of setting. If you want to do something different, I'd recommend playing with the setting or with sidestones, and sticking with RB.

2) Get a great cut, a good color and eye-clean clarity, then figure out what carat you can afford

I decided I wanted an RB AGS000 H&A. I don't really care about the hearts (you can't see them after it's mounted), and the arrows are pleasant but not essential. But H&A is really about a level of craftsmanship and precision that creates the best possible diamond out of the rough stone. Click on the GOG tutorial, plus the rough diamond and ideal cut buttons on the ISEE2 website to show why ideal cut matters. There's no more ideal than H&A. (But be sure to note that lots of stones that claim to be H&A are not. You don't have independent certs like you do for AGS000, so make sure that it's a complete, symmetrical H&A pattern.)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ags_000.htm
http://www.goodoldgold.com/hearts_and_arrows.htm
http://www.isee2.com/isee2flashindex-us.htm

I wanted VS2 so that it would be truly eye clean even in a large diamond. Unless you get pleasure out of knowing that your diamond is flawless, I see no value on going better than VS2, since nobody wears a loupe or a 70x microscope near their diamond. I decided on F, as I wanted to have a "colorless grade", but couldn't see the difference to D once it's set. I was fortunate enough to have a decent budget for the stone, but thought my girlfriend would be self-conscious with a diamond much bigger than 2 carats.

I decided on a 2.03 F VS2 AGS000 H&A from Good Old Gold (GOG). http://www.goodoldgold.com/2_03ct_f_vs2__h%26a.htm.

If I had less money to spend, I would have gone to a G or H and SI1 (or even SI2), as long as it would be eye clean or the inclusion would be covered by a prong. Note that AGS000 H&A 1 carat H SI1's are available on pricescope at $4 K, and 0.7 carat at half that. I suspect my fiancée would still have been thrilled with either. Most people can afford to buy a much better cut stone than they would ever find through a regular brick and mortar (B&M) store.

3) Buy a great cut and don't worry about brand

Obviously, if your girlfriend has ever told you that she always wanted a Tiffany diamond, than buy her a Tiffany diamond. But realize that you're overpaying by at least 30%, and that, despite reputation, Tiffany sells some fairly mediocre stones (good cut and symmetry, medium fluorescence).

My metric is that diamonds are a commodity and that every aspect of a commodity should be independently evaluated. One B&M jeweler told me that you can't trust what a cert says, because you need "jeweler's eyes". That was the last time I went into his store.

There is a simple distinction between branded and unbranded H&A's, vs. Tiffany's, vs. AGS000 and other stones. That is, if you send the stone to an independent appraiser, they can never determine the brand and so there's no intrinsic value in brand (beyond what you as a consumer assign to it). By contrast, triple ideal and H&A are intrinsic qualities of the stone that make it a look better, especially since cut is the most important of the 4 C's.

The only possible option better than AGS000 H&A is Eightstar, which is verifiably different than a regular H&A. If you see one and fall in love with it, than go for it. But note that many viewers do not prefer their look, and that you're paying 30% to 50% more for a level of precision that is hard if not impossible to see in real life. And, new tools such as the Brilliantscope and ISEE2 show that some Eightstars do worse than many H&As in the objective characteristics of fire, brilliance, and scintillation that many viewers prefer.

I bought from Good Old Gold because Jonathan has built himself a fantastic niche between the low-end H&A brokers who provide you no info on the stone ahead of time and the branded H&A vendors where you pay a premium for their guarantee that the stone is good. With GOG, you get the confidence of a great rock without having to pay for an ultimately meaningless brand. The best thing about GOG, of course, is that nobody provides more and better information about the exact stone you're planning to buy. If you want the best possible information about what you're buying, at a reasonable price, and with great customer service, I highly recommend GOG. (And, someday Jonathan will update his circa 1995 web site design, and remove the only blemish on his buying experience.)

4) Fluorescence is good at H and higher and bad below

If I were getting an H or worse color diamond, I would definitely want strong fluorescence, as the blue plus yellow appears white in many lights. But, with a "colorless grade" F, I wanted a pure white and no possible blue glow. I found out that another B&M store was trying to sell me a strong blue fluorescent stone only after asking them to fax me the cert. The delay almost screwed up my hotel reservations for when I was planning to ask my girlfriend to marry me. It also convinced me to buy online, where I could find out everything about the stone before I bought.

5) Let her pick out the setting

I went with the simplest (and cheapest) Tiffany-style 6 prong in white gold to be able to put it on my girlfriend's finger when I surprised her with the proposal. We're now looking together for the permanent setting she wants. She is growing attached to this one, so we may just swap it out for one in platinum. But since she we're hoping for her to wear it for the rest of her life, I felt she should be involved in the setting decision.

6) Buy what can you afford and no more

The 2 month salary rule seems reasonable if you and/or your girlfriend are a fan of diamond engagement rings. However, you'll probably both be much happier with a slightly smaller stone than getting a bigger one and finding yourself with a lot of arguments about credit card debt.

Good luck!

DK Br2031FVS2 finished.jpg
 

afriend

Rough_Rock
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One more pic.

DK Br2031FVS2 side view.jpg
 

Kamuelamom

Brilliant_Rock
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The summary of what you learned during your diamond hunt is exactly the kind of value I feel consumers come away with, if they do all their research. The only difference for us was that we went with the G/SI1 combo to get the best possible bang for our buck. In your case, since you could afford to do so, you went for it and knew exactly what you were after based on what both you and she wanted, right down to what she'd be comfortable with size-wise.

Kudos on a great ring, and your newly engaged status. Congratulations and best wishes.
 

magna2

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
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319
Great summary - lots of useful information for folks who are starting their diamond buying process. Your advise in item 6 hits it right on the nail - buy within reason and don't buy more than would comfortably fit in the budget. However, I would add that if a person need to buy on credit (meaning using a credit card to buy and then needing months if not years to pay off that credit card debt) than that person has overextended and should have bought something more reasonably priced - that is, affordable.

Oh yeah... great looking diamond.

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fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
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Congrats!
Beautiful ring!

...and Amen to no debt. Money can be an issue in Marriage. Not need to have some strikes against you from the get go!
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
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Gorgeous ring and many Congrats to you and FI for a long and happy life together!
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Jonathan does have some really great rocks and this is definitely a sight to behold!
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Mega dittos on the issue of debt. Find the balance of size, color, clarity, AND budget that works for you. Don't start off life together in the hole.
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I would beg to differ slightly with the comment on Branded diamonds. I agree that Tiffany and 8* are outrageous. Also, if that's what your sweetie wants and you are comfortable with it, go for it. And, don't get me wrong, Jonathan and the folks at GOG are great! As are the folks at Nice Ice who also deal in unbranded H&A's. Although they are vendors, both give their time and share their knowledge to educate consumers. Both offer superior diamonds that are hand selected for quality and performance. But,.... White Flash Branded ACA's are VERY competitively priced.
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I just did a quick check of the link you provided to your diamond and current White Flash ACA stock for a comparison. White Flash has a 2.04 carat, F, VS1, Price Scope priced at $25,232. About $2K more than the web price quoted on the diamond you purchased from GOG. Then I went to Price Stats. Based on the Average asking price chart, the clarity rating difference from VS1 to VS2 accounts for the difference in asking price.
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I bought my ACA H&A from White Flash, but not because I "had" to have a Branded diamond. The folks at White Flash had the size and color range I was shopping for in a 100% eye clean SI1 clarity that met my price point. Other vendors had similar diamonds available at the time, but due to higher clarity ratings their diamonds did not meet my price point.

Folks should shop around, check the Forum for posts on Vendors they are considering, and find a Vendor they are comfortable working with to purchase the diamond that meets their hopes, dreams, and budget. Don't immediately assume buying a Branded H&A means a higher price for a similar diamond.
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Again, many Congrats on both the ring and your engagement!
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aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Great post, but one minor point: It is a fairly rare instance to be able to get a 1 ct., H/SI1 H&A AGS000 diamond for only 4K.




I know....I've been trying to get as close as I can to a 1ct without going below H or SI-1, and I'm having a tough time getting any higher than .87




Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I'd find that amazing considering how long I've been at this.




Other than that, GREAT post, right on the mark, and GORGEOUS ring!
 

Hest88

Ideal_Rock
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Wise man.
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afriend

Rough_Rock
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On 10/2/2003 10:40:03 AM pqcollectibles wrote:

White Flash Branded ACA's are VERY competitively priced.

Folks should shop around, check the Forum for posts on Vendors they are considering, and find a Vendor they are comfortable working with to purchase the diamond that meets their hopes, dreams, and budget. Don't immediately assume buying a Branded H&A means a higher price for a similar diamond.
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pqcollectibles, good point on WhiteFlash. I've heard good things about them and am sure they're a great vendor. My main points were: 1) I don't think their ACA brand adds additional value that's worth paying $$ for, beyond signifying that they think it's a great stone. 2) I like the additional information that GOG provides.

Your mileage may vary.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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LOVELY ring and of course I adore the specs on the monster stone...*drool*. Congrats on a great eye and being such a good pupil
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My two cents on the branded vs. unbranded is that I have seen stones that are just as expensive on GOG's site as they are on WF or SC's sites. So sometimes you can get a good price break going unbranded from GOG if you get something that the other sites may not carry--or in a niche they don't have. But for the most part I have found GOG to be pricier than most unbranded sites, more comparable with a WF or SC branded type site. The stones where this seems to differ slightly (depends on the stones also) are the unbranded brokered stones that GOG offers...they seem a little cheaper than the typical ACA.




I'm not saying 'go for branded, it's the same price!' but in the scheme of things I would consider all three of these vendors to be on equal footing when it comes to pricing for the most part.




Congrats again....what is the proposal scenario?!
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afriend

Rough_Rock
Joined
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On 10/2/2003 10:42:25 AM aljdewey wrote:


Great post, but one minor point: It is a fairly rare instance to be able to get a 1 ct., H/SI1 H&A AGS000 diamond for only 4K.


I know....I've been trying to get as close as I can to a 1ct without going below H or SI-1, and I'm having a tough time getting any higher than .87


Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I'd find that amazing considering how long I've been at this.


Other than that, GREAT post, right on the mark, and GORGEOUS ring!
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aljdewey, pricescope is showing several vendors offering the same 1.01 H SI1 H&A for as low as $4044 (they all use the same wholesaler). Unless you've looked into this specific rock before, you should have one of them send it to an appraiser and find out if it's the one you've been looking for.

If that doesn't work out, I would recommend that you email 2 or 3 of your favorite vendors and ask them to keep an eye out for your stone. If you know exactly what you want, are clear on what you can spend, and can wait a little, they may be able to find it for you better than you continuing to rerun the same pricescope search.

FYI, here's the stone I'm seeing for $4044:

http://search.tradeshop.com/cgi/u/1041/v.cgi?stock=1451960&_s=1041&_p=98fg98f7g&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=

Do not buy this without getting it indendently evaluated and appraised!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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If it's listed on the regular H&A search on Pscope--it may be one of those random 'it's H&A, but its really not' virtual brokered stones...esp if its alot cheaper. I just checked it out and the diameter is smaller than a 1c stone which should be around 6.5mm. This one is averaged around 6.4mm which would make it more like a .95c stone or similar.
 

afriend

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Messages
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Mara, thanks for your comments. I've always enjoyed your posts here.

For the proposal, we went on a walk to her favorite stretch of beach in Monterey. She's an oceanographer so I wanted the day to have an ocean theme.

I thought an innocuous beach walk would be pretty easy to arrange, although she first suggested that we go to Napa that weekend, then that she might get a horseback riding lesson that day, and then that we go to Carmel instead. We laughed later that I normally would be happy with any of those, but I showed some determination to get her to that beach but not so much inflexibility that she was suspicious.

After telling her that I loved her and wanted to spend our lives together, I got down on one knee, pulled out the ring, and asked her to marry me. She was so surprised that there was a fairly long pause of ohmygod, ohmygod, before she finally said yes and I could get up again.

I then called her parents and got their blessing. Then, we went to the Inn at Spanish Bay at Pebble Beach, where I had reserved an ocean-facing suite. After a walk along the cliffs and beach, we went up to the room, where I'd gotten them to put a bottle of champagne, a bowl of strawberries, and a bouquet of tulips (her favorite flower).

So, it was a fun, romantic weekend.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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31,003
Wow what a great story!!! We love Carmel, great restaurants there....we drive up about once a month. I love the tulips (my fav flower as well), since that is definitely one of the small touches that really shows you *know* and go that extra mile.
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Congrats!
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
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Hi again Friend!
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I wanted to check back to be sure I did not start a fire storm or rain on your parade. GREAT Proposal story!!
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New folk join the Forum all the time and I wanted them to know that you can indeed find Branded H&A's competitively priced. As the example I noted above comparing the diamond you purchased with one White Flash currently has available. The $2K price difference isn't the ACA Brand, it's the VS1 (WF ACA)/VS2 (your GOG H&A) clarity rating as shown in Price Scopes Price Stats charts.

I lurked the Forum, read, learned, and posted a couple trial diamonds for opinions over the course of about 3 months. I was leaning toward buying a diamond that the Cert said "Exhibits Hearts and Arrows pattern" when some posts on the Forum addressed that issue. Better cut diamonds will exhibit the H&A pattern to some extent, but only true H&A's have the precise internal optical symmetry to maximize performance and reduce light leakage.

I wanted to see an H&A live and in person so I went to a local store that carries a H&A's for a viewing. I wanted to know if the H&A price difference was worth it for me. I saw an obvious difference between the H&A's and other well cut diamonds in the same color, and clarity rating, and similar carat weights. I began a month long internet search of the various H&A vendors watching sites for a diamond that met my criteria and price point. I checked SuperbCert, GOG, Nice Ice, White Flash, and others listing true H&A's. GOG and Nice Ice both had similar diamonds available during that time, but they were higher clarity rated and therefore not within my price point. White Flash had a gorgeous, 100% eye clean SI1 that met all my other criteria. The ACA "Brand" was icing on the cake for me.

And, ALDJ,.... You will be hard pressed to find a 1 carat, H, SI1, AGS000 (Ideal Polish/Ideal Symmetry/Ideal Proportions) H&A in the $4K price range. My 0.766 ct, H, SI1, was in the $3K range last spring. I couldn't even buy my diamond today within the budget I had set last spring. So glad I got mine when I did! The diamond Friend listed looks like a nice diamond worthy of consideration but is not the AGS000 you are looking for.
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aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
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Hi, A friend: Yes, I saw that stone before I replied, and perhaps I should have mentioned why I felt that was misleading, but I tried to keep it short and just relate that most H, SI-1 ideal-cut stones at 1ct cannot be had for $4K. But since you referred to it, I'll elaborate now.



Look closer at it. It doesn't list crown/pav angles, so there's really no way to support the contention that it's an H&A stone. Further, the fact that it bears the inscription H&A doesn't make it so.



Look even closer. The stone has a vg/vg (as opposed to ex/ex), AND the most telling facts are the diameter of the stone. A well-cut 1ct stone should have a diameter of about 6.5.....this one is 6.38x6.42. This tells me the stone is probably fairly deep and that the extra weight is probably in the pavilion.



In my opinion, the fact that you can get this *one* stone (which looks to be a very good cut instead of an ideal cut) for $4K doesn't make it a reasonable expectation to readily find an H, SI-1 well-cut stone for $4K. I just wanted to clarify so that others with less experience aren't expecting to find a screaming, well-cut H, SI-1 for $4k.



A final note.....you can see on GOG's site that a stone cut to AGS 0 specs can still perform poorly depending on the details.



From what I've seen over months of searching, a truly well-cut H, SI-1 stone runs more in the neighborhood of $5100, give or take a few hundred.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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9,170


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On 10/2/2003 1:51:35 PM pqcollectibles wrote:










And, ALDJ,.... You will be hard pressed to find a 1 carat, H, SI1, AGS000 (Ideal Polish/Ideal Symmetry/Ideal Proportions) H&A in the $4K price range. My 0.766 ct, H, SI1, was in the $3K range last spring. I couldn't even buy my diamond today within the budget I had set last spring. So glad I got mine when I did! The diamond Friend listed looks like a nice diamond worthy of consideration but is not the AGS000 you are looking for.
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Hi, PQ: Believe me....I KNOW, and that's why I offered the gentle correction. I'm finding that I'll likely not get above .87 to stay in the $4k range. I've been at this a loooooong time now, comparing, comparing, comparing, and that's how I *knew* that the information provided by a friend, given innocently and meant to be helpful, was a bit misleading on a factual basis.



But, I'm delighted that he shared his experience and was thrilled to read about his proposal!
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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----------------
On 10/2/2003 1:51:35 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

New folk join the Forum all the time and I wanted them to know that you can indeed find Branded H&A's competitively priced. ----------------


An excellent point, too, PQ. Important for everyone to know.......A well-cut diamond is going to run you about the same money with most of the vendors here.....whether branded or not.



There is very little price difference between a branded diamond from WF (or other net vendors with branded stones) and similar unbranded diamonds from GOG or NiceIce based on what I've seen. Why? Because the quality of the stones are comparable, whether branded or not. There are no shortcuts.....you get what you pay for. All of these vendors are successful because they know how to evaluate the quality of their stones and price them according to what the market will bear.



This means that one should not rule out a branded stone on the assumption that it will automatically carry a heavy premium, as PQ notes. The branding doesn't make it a "better" stone, it just makes it easier to identify that it is a stone of a certain caliber.



 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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31,003
I have saved this picture and put it with my other 'wishlist' rings...for the lottery winning day
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ringbling17

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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2,808
HI,
Great proposal story beautiful engagement ring!!! I am sure she loves it!!!
I also wanted to add a comment in defense of Whiteflash and Superbcert.
I started looking for a diamond in January and when I compared prices, I found that the prices were the same, if not even better for the Branded H&A's.
I wound up purchasing two different diamonds from Whiteflash, and both times, I found the prices to be better than what I would have purchased from GOG.
You have to remember that the prices that are posted on Pricescope are not necessarily the prices you wind up paying. There is some bargaining that can be done.
The first diamond I purchased was a 1.51 F VVS2 ACA New Line H&A for $15,000.
Compare it to this diamond from GOG- 1.508 F VS2 Unbranded H&A for $14361.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_508ct_f_vs2__h%26a.htm

As you can see, the stone I purchased was $639 more, for two clarity grades higher and it's branded.
The same holds true for the 2.03 G VS1 ACA H&A that I purchased. Although I won't post the price that I paid, I promised Whiteflash I wouldn't, I got an excellent deal. Even Chris at AGA (D. Atlas), said that the price I paid was the price he would have gotten with his diamond "connections". He actually said to me that he was surprised they are even making a profit.
Of course, I am not saying being branded is necessarily better, but I think if you do your research, you will see that you can purchase a branded H&A for a reasonable price.
Don't believe that you are paying a premium just to own a branded diamond.
And as far as having a meaningless brand, didn't Jonathan just come out with his own branded princess cut H&A diamonds, the Queen of Hearts?
(Sorry Jonathan, I don't want you to think I am coming after you, I really am not. I think you are great, too!!!)
 
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