Buying a stone, question about IGI and GIA

[lolblows00]

Hello all, I am currently searching for a stopne for an engagement ring. The specs of the stone that we were looking at are:

G Color

VS1,2 clarity

Cut would be VG VG to EX EX

and 1.3 to 1.5 carats.

We went into a jeweler who we worked with before and he said the stone would run around 8500. This is a GIA graded stone.

Her neighbor is a coin dealer who also works in the jewlery business and said that a very high price. He could get us the same diamond but it is IGI rated.

After reading a lot on the internet and on this board, there seems to be mixed feeling about them. they seem to be a little looser in their grading but still garner respect.

My question is would a GIA rated diamond be worth double of that of an IGI? I know IGI may be a little looser grading but could I possibly bump up the specs to compensate then for this (instead of VS get a VVS)?

I am just very confused about this whole thing as I am very new to it and want as much advice as possible. Thank you!

 

[elle_chris]

Why would two stones of the same color and clarity sell for such different prices? Simple, because the cheaper stone is of lower color, clarity or both.

If you''re trying to get an IGI VVS that''s still lower priced than a GIA graded VS, than it''s probably not a VS either. Instead of bumping, why not just get a properly graded stone to begin with? Or, understand that the stone isn''t what the paper says but hey, you got a good deal right? and be happy with it anyway.

 

[lolblows00]

I think my overall question is, is a GIA graded stone worth double of that of an IGI. Both stones would be graded the exact same just from two different companies. Are you saying IGI grades things wrong?

The reason I assume one is so much cheaper than another is because there is no markup on the stone from IGI as we are getting it at cost. Would that be wrong?

I was told that going to a jeweler selling at retail has a huge markup as opposed to getting it from someone in the business who you know - is that not right?

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 12/25/2009 12:09:23 PM
Author: lolblows00
I think my overall question is, is a GIA graded stone worth double of that of an IGI. Both stones would be graded the exact same just from two different companies. Are you saying IGI grades things wrong? Grading color and clarity is subjective human opinion and every lab has slightly different standards. GIA and AGS are considered the most strict on color and clarity. EGL-USA is a little less so. IGI and EGL-Israel are much more lenient--by two or more grades many times. Cutters and wholesalers have a good idea before sending a stone to a lab what kind of grade it will receive, so only send the best to GIA and generally send the not quite so good stones to a more lenient lab to get a better grade on paper. Consider two college students, one has a 3.8 GPA from Harvard and the other has a 3.8 GPA from a local state college, who most likely took the harder courses? They have the same GPA, but they don''t have the same education.

The reason I assume one is so much cheaper than another is because there is no markup on the stone from IGI as we are getting it at cost. Would that be wrong? People in the diamond business fall in one of three camps. Those that know the differences in the grading labs and are honest with their customers. Those that know the differences and try to convince customers that all are the same--which is flat out lying. And those that are uneducated as to the differences--do you really want to buy from someone uneducated about their products? This person falls is one of the last two, neither of which are people I would want to get in a business deal with.

I was told that going to a jeweler selling at retail has a huge markup as opposed to getting it from someone in the business who you know - is that not right? Diamonds actually have very little markup in most cases, especially from online vendors--it is not unusual for a vendor to make more profit on the setting than the stone. You will see greater markup at B&M stores, but it is still not large, or else it is a store that always has their diamonds "on sale". By and large, diamonds are a case of "you get what you pay for" If the price is too good to be true, there is a reason.

Use the diamond prices search at the top of the page to find what online vendors would charge for similar stones. It is normal for a B&M to be slightly higher due to higher overhead costs (store, utilities, etc.) but it shouldn''t be extreme.

 

[elle_chris]

I''m gonna be honest- If the jeweler (friend or no friend), thought the IGI stone was a true G VS, there''s no reason to send it to IGI to get it graded. At least not IGI in the states who DOES over inflate grades. The stone would simply be worth more with a GIA report. So why not send it to GIA?

Would you get a better price, maybe? don''t know what kind of relationship you have with this person (do a search here for "wholesale or friend of jeweler", you''d be surpised at what you''ll find), but you wouldn''t get it for half either. He can afford to give it you for that much of a discount because he got it from his supplier for less, and the reason for that is once again, it''s not what the paper says.

You can use the search function here to se what stones in your range are going for. Notice the huge difference in price depending on the lab. You don''t need a friend to get a discount on stones with EGL or IGI reports.

 

[lolblows00]

that makes sense to me. When i do a diamond search using the tool, and compare two alike spec diamonds GIA and IGI, there isn''t that much price difference. Shouldn''t IGI diamonds be significantly less based on what you said? its just a lot to learn, want to make sure I get her the best diamond I can and not some sleezy BS.

 

[elle_chris]

I tried doing a search but all I found were EGL stones. There were a few that were selling for the same price as a some GIA and I''m going to "guess" it''s because the grades are accurate.

Haven''t found any IGI. What criteria did you use for your search?

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 12/25/2009 12:48:25 PM
Author: lolblows00
that makes sense to me. When i do a diamond search using the tool, and compare two alike spec diamonds GIA and IGI, there isn't that much price difference. Shouldn't IGI diamonds be significantly less based on what you said? its just a lot to learn, want to make sure I get her the best diamond I can and not some sleezy BS.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That is the problem with lenient grading, sometimes it is close to GIA standards, sometimes waaaaayyyy off. In the college analogy, is it possible that the local state college student is just as intelligent as the Harvard one? Sure, but if you are a potential employer, one in a much safer bet than the other because of the school name on the parchment. The price of cut diamonds is based on what the cutter paid for the rough, labor costs, and many other factors, in addition to color and clarity. A extremely low price is just a huge red flag that the grade is probably very lenient.

As elle chris points out, the best and safest way to know what you are getting is to stick with GIA and AGS graded stones.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 12/25/2009 11:06:03 AM
Author:lolblows00
Hello all, I am currently searching for a stopne for an engagement ring. The specs of the stone that we were looking at are:


G Color


VS1,2 clarity


Cut would be VG VG to EX EX


and 1.3 to 1.5 carats.


We went into a jeweler who we worked with before and he said the stone would run around 8500. This is a GIA graded stone.


Her neighbor is a coin dealer who also works in the jewlery business and said that a very high price. He could get us the same diamond but it is IGI rated.


After reading a lot on the internet and on this board, there seems to be mixed feeling about them. they seem to be a little looser in their grading but still garner respect.


My question is would a GIA rated diamond be worth double of that of an IGI? I know IGI may be a little looser grading but could I possibly bump up the specs to compensate then for this (instead of VS get a VVS)?


I am just very confused about this whole thing as I am very new to it and want as much advice as possible. Thank you!

A very helpful piece of wisdom in the jewelry business is that you get what you pay for. If something is significantly cheaper there is a definite reason. If it were discounted 10-15% off of a GIA I would say have a 3rd party investigate, maybe it''s a deal. Half price, something''s up, either it''s a poor cut, a poor grade, or all of the above.

--Joshua

 

[lolblows00]

I was using carat size as the search method 1.35 to 1.5. I will see if he will get the stones GIA graded and such. Thanks so much for all the help. I figured the stone was so much cheaper because he has no mark up on it, but that may not be the case at all. I have such a hard time trusting people as it is, I hate this type of stuff.

If there is a GIA report with the diamond, I don''t really have to care what the guy is telling me right? Once you have that report, you know exactly what that diamond is and since there the most accurate, its really the bottom line - is that right?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/25/2009 12:09:23 PM
Author: lolblows00
The reason I assume one is so much cheaper than another is because there is no markup on the stone from IGI as we are getting it at cost. Would that be wrong?

I was told that going to a jeweler selling at retail has a huge markup as opposed to getting it from someone in the business who you know - is that not right?

how can he stay in business w/o making a profit?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/25/2009 1:45:45 PM
Author: lolblows00
I was using carat size as the search method 1.35 to 1.5. I will see if he will get the stones GIA graded and such. Thanks so much for all the help. I figured the stone was so much cheaper because he has no mark up on it, but that may not be the case at all. I have such a hard time trusting people as it is, I hate this type of stuff.

If there is a GIA report with the diamond, I don''t really have to care what the guy is telling me right? Once you have that report, you know exactly what that diamond is and since there the most accurate, its really the bottom line - is that right?

wrong!! depending on the cut. a top cut stone can cost 25% more than a poorly cut stone of the same color and clarity.

 

[outatouch0]

Hi there and welcome to PS
You have already received some VERY good advice so I will limit my comments to minimize repetition. The "quick and dirty" summary of the advice given is that you are trying to compare apples to oranges here and that is simply a waste of your time. Fortunately there is a way to speed up the process of learning about diamonds.
The cure for what ails you right now is READING. The best thing you can do for yourself is invest some time in the pricescope knowledge section. You can quickly become somewhat more knowledgeable about diamonds than the people you have been dealing with so far.
As an added benefit, you will also become MUCH more able to understand and comprehend the advice you receive here in this forum

Right now it looks to me like your presuppositions are interfering with your ability to benefit from the above feedback. Please understand, that is not meant as a "jab" at you or a "flame" - we see this a lot and it is quite understandable. PS members LOVE to help, and that''s why the knowledge section is there to get you started. I can definitely say it helped me tremendously!!

 

[lolblows00]

that knowledge section is really great! I am learning day by day. IKf anyone here sells diamonds, I am curious how much the stone goes for? I want to get a price ragen if possible:

color: G,H

Cut: VG to EX

Clarity :vs1 vs1

Carat: 1.3 to 1.5

I have been looking online at the prices, but I would also like an experts opinion.

Another question is, when you buy the diamond, how do you know that the diamond sold is the one that matches the report? Is that why you go and get an appraisal from an outside source right after the sale?

Thank you all, This process should hopefully go much smoother now that I know what to look for.