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Buying a Ruby

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shasavan7

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I just completed a search for an unheated classic Burma (Mogok) ruby, and found the process quite interesting. I''m curious to see if my experience is typical or unusual.

I began cruising the internet, and established contact with a number of well known dealers (Cherrypicked, National Gemstone and others). My goal began was a 1.5 carat stone, which soon morphed into a 2+ carat search. I also visited my local jewler, who insisted they could bring stones in from various sources for me to look at. What I found most interesting is that unlike diamonds, there is no common language to describe or, from the consumer''s perspective, to evaluate, the quality of colored stones (I''m sure this has been covered in this forum before).

I saw a number of rubies, each of which had some kind of certification indicating Burma and unheated. One internet dealer carried a number of stones--some of which had certs (all different kinds), some which didn''t. Essentially what I was told by most dealers was either: a) I was "buying their "eye"" as far as the quality of the ruby (and they certainly were not impartial, disinterested parties), or, b) it was up to me, as a reasonably ignorant consumer, to figure out what I liked.

I was only able to find one dealer who had complete AGL certification for all his stones. The ruby I wound up purchasing was evaluated by an impartial (I believe) third party. It was the only case where I felt a degree of real comfort writing a large check. When I asked other dealers why they didn''t get AGL certs, I was told things like: too expensive (silly, as the cost would be a tiny fraction of the value of a 2 carat ruby), too slow, just not necessary, too political (!!), etc.

As you may know, a 2 carat unheated Mogok ruby is a MAJOR purchase. I can''t think of another category of goods where there is less quantitative information available, with the possible exception of certain kinds of art. I can understand why dealers don''t want to get the full AGL cert--if the stone doesn''t grade out well, they lose money. It certainly is much easier to just tell the consumer to "trust their eye".

My question is: why don''t more buyers require AGL certs? I can tell everyone who reads this that I believe it was to my clear advantage to know as much as I could about the ruby I bought.

I would be interested in reactions to this post.
 

movie zombie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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your experience is pretty much the experience of anyone buying any high level color stone....and, yes, you are buying their eye....the questions: is their eye good or not?!

another compounding problem is that there is no agreed upon criteria for what constitutes a fine stone so certification is nearly impossible....unlike with diamonds. with color stones its still in the eye of the beholder doing the certificate: s/he has their own criteria, is aware of what is currently considered ideal, etc. btw, what is considered ideal can change with color stones.

i am in no way an expert but merely a consumer trying to become more educated. there are lots of good articles written about rubies which can be accessed on the internet. also, do a search here at pricescope and you should fiind some older threads discussing this topic....both rubies and the lack of a concise and definitive color stone criteria for certification.

congratulations on your purchase. please please post pictures!

movie zombie
 

shasavan7

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Well, the problem is when you "buy someone''s eye" on an expensive stone, it''s great until you want to resell it. It doesn''t usually help to say "Richard really thought this was a great stone".
With the full AGL cert I have percentage red, and tone, cut quality, clarity, overall quality, and a bunch of other "data". It sure seems a lot less subjective than "Richard likes it".
 

MJO

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Date: 8/30/2006 12:58:31 PM
Author: shasavan7
Well, the problem is when you 'buy someone's eye' on an expensive stone, it's great until you want to resell it. It doesn't usually help to say 'Richard really thought this was a great stone'.
With the full AGL cert I have percentage red, and tone, cut quality, clarity, overall quality, and a bunch of other 'data'. It sure seems a lot less subjective than 'Richard likes it'.
Hi Shasavan7,

I agree with you. On a major purchase I won't buy a stone unless I can at least AGL Certified with the complete cert. Whenever someone sells you a stone with a partial cert. (IE natural unheated Ruby) it is not because the price for the additional things on the cert like color, clarity, hue, tone and TQI are to expensive but that the dealer doesn't want you to know that it is not up to what he is charging you for.

Regards,
Maurice
 

elmo

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Date: 8/30/2006 12:58:31 PM
Author: shasavan7
With the full AGL cert I have percentage red, and tone, cut quality, clarity, overall quality, and a bunch of other 'data'. It sure seems a lot less subjective than 'Richard likes it'.
Basically what you're getting with the AGL report is a piece of paper that says 'Cap likes it'
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. I do think that adds value and is a nice sanity check. IMO there are few purchases needing a sanity check more than when buying an expensive colored rock.

p.s. Other than Genis I'm curious if you've found anyone who has full AGL reports for their stock.
 

shasavan7

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Nope. Genis is the only dealer I found willing to submit his goods for a full certification. To be honest, that sure made me scratch my head about the other people I was talking to. I chose to buy from a dealer that seemed more "transparent" about what the were selling.
 

MJO

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Date: 8/30/2006 2:32:03 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 8/30/2006 12:58:31 PM
Author: shasavan7
With the full AGL cert I have percentage red, and tone, cut quality, clarity, overall quality, and a bunch of other ''data''. It sure seems a lot less subjective than ''Richard likes it''.
Basically what you''re getting with the AGL report is a piece of paper that says ''Cap likes it''
1.gif
. I do think that adds value and is a nice sanity check. IMO there are few purchases needing a sanity check more than when buying an expensive colored rock.

p.s. Other than Genis I''m curious if you''ve found anyone who has full AGL reports for their stock.
Hi Elmo,

You are somewhat right about the AGL cert. Some things are subjective. But more people know Cap than Richard and if all done with the same criteria is easier to compare than different criteria. Like wine on the Parker scale. Most people know Parker but the Fred scale?

Regards,
Maurice
 

shasavan7

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Also, Richard is evaluating stones that Richard is selling. Cap isn''t. I''ve heard a few things about Cap being difficult to deal with (I''ve never spoken to or had any dealings with the man), but better that than him giving dealers what they want in terms of grading their stones highly.
 

MINE!!

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You know,

Few people are rude to MZ.. (with the exception of me in the World Forum)
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So I am a bit bristled by the response to her post. But I think that what she says holds a lot of merit. I am one of those people that beleive that one needs to be INFORMED, yet also needs to know what they are looking for. I would trust the eye of many people over a piece of paper. I would much rather choose with my eye than with a cert. any day. yes, I agree that a certificate can be important. But I see it from the aspect of seaching for a diamond. I HAVE seen a few coupla cert. diamonds that look like CRAP and others, that I drool over. My spess comes with a cert, certianly not on the level of maybe a Burnese Ruby, but I think that was one of the last things on my list of "need to haves" when it came to my purchase.

But, I may be wrong, but I think MZ was pointing out that there are people that want to buy a stone for the beauty, the essence, the feeling and the uniqueness of the stone in a way that appeals to them and what appeals to the person they trust (and are looking at the stone) for them. I am not sure that she was talking about someone that is purchasing a stone just to resell it.

I suppose that she and I may think alike when we consider gemstones, we see them more of personal enjoyment and connectiveness with the colored gems because of their uniqueness and appeal and with them there is more "in the eye of the beholder" than what it the "eye of the certifyer" as in a diamond. Some look for the beauty of the stone, others for the paper to show with the stone to prove that it is beautiful.

MZ.. sorry if I spoke wrongly about what you beleive, feel free to bash me..
19.gif
 

movie zombie

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and it depends on who the ''richard'' is or is not.....there is a certain richard whose eye i''ll take any day over a certificate.....and, yes, saying richard x says its the best he''s ever seen does carry weight because of his reputation within the gem ''industry''.

i''m certainly not suggesting that just anyone''s eye should be trusted: but there are people in the gem industry with reputations and it is those people i''m talking about.....no, i wouldn''t walk into any b&m and trust their eye....my eye is better than theirs at this point.

ruby is one of the color stones for which over the years a more concise industry definition of what constitutes a great stone has evolved. however, given my relationship with a certain richard who is also an expert re rubies, i''ll let the certificate drop by the wayside and go with his eye...i have yet to hear anyone dispute his ''eye''.

i''d be curious, MJO, given you collect/speculate/buy/sell: do you have a certificate for each of your color stones?

thanks, Mine! when it comes to color, we''re on the same page...you did not speak wrongly.
face6.gif


movie zombie
 

MJO

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Hi MZ,

Sorry if it seems like I was bashing you I was not and. I agree that the stone first has to be pleasing to my eye unless I am collecting a stone for the rarity factor. I think of color stones as an enjoyment but also don''t want to overpay. I also want to make sure that if something happens to me that my wife and children understand what they have and not go to any old place and have them tell them something that is not true about the stone and then have them sell it for a fraction of the price. This is why I like certs with large purchase stones. I have certs on all my stones that I feel are worth $10,000 or more. As a practical matter it is not worth getting an $800 cert on a $2,000 stone.

I am not disputing the fact that the Richard you are referring to (I think I know) has a wonderful eye for fine stones. It''s just that worldwide more people know the name AGL, Gulblin Etc and therefore is more important for financial purposes than someones eye. Also the labs test for treatments of the stones. Some tests require instraments that are not used by the average G.G. Now the Richard I think you are referring to has instituted a grading system on his site. If he opens a lab certifying stone with that grading system and it is recognized around the world as the other labs are I would use it. But for the most part labs that are not known world wide I will not use.

Also when it comes to insurance if your receipt says a 2ct Ruby top red that you paid $25,000 for the insurance company wouldn''t pay you but replace the stone with a heated fracture filled poorly cut included red ruby because there was nothing else said. The more information you give them the more they have to come close to the stone discribed or pay you.

No disrespect intended.

Regards,
Maurice
 

movie zombie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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yes, and that''s why my insurance appraisal was done by a professional and was specific as well. but they did want to know the name of the vendor and his credentials as well.


your situation for wanting and having certs is understandable....especially for stones over $10K. and like you said, $800 for anything less may not be warranted.

but many of us don''t have such a collection that will be inherited and don''t intend to sell what we do have on the market. and many who are posting in this forum aren''t spending $10k or more for a color stone. to paraphrase Mine, it is a different situation for us. if i was in your position i''d do and feel the same. like Mine, a cert wasn''t high on my criteria.

each to their own.

movie zombie
 

MJO

Brilliant_Rock
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Hi MZ,

The thing is in THIS thread we are talking about a 2ct Unheated (I would assume top color, clarity and cut) classic Mogook Burmese Ruby which should be over $10,000 so even if I bought it from Richard I would put in a stipulation that I will pay for the cert from the AGL and If it doesn''t come in as I thought it should I could return the stone.

Regards,
Maurice
 

movie zombie

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i agree! especially ruby is one of the color stones that through years and years of buying/selling seems to stay consistent regarding what is considered idea.

movie zombie
 

canuk-gal

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HI:

This thread could not be more timely as I am in the market for a ruby similar to what Shasavan7 describes and have found the results of my online searches rather frustrating and uninformative.

May I ask if any folks know the origin of ruby (sources) used by Van Cleef and Arpels? I have searched online and could not find corraboration to a tibit of lore stuck in my head that VCA has access to/uses in their jewellery "very fine Burmese" stones. Would anyone also know if they offer AGL or equilivalent certs? I suppose it is worth a call long distance (I am in Canada and the nearest VCA to be would be California) but thought I'd tap into the collective PS resources first.

cheers--Sharon
 

HERMAN

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Sounds like you made a very informed decision. Can you please provide particulars about the AGL cert and post pictures of the stone.
 

colorchange

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AGL certificates are good but :
- You can''t tell the value on a certificate (unlike a diamond).
- Fluorescence isn''t mentionned
- They are seriously expensive compared to the time it takes to a dealer to check the color and brillancy.
- A dealer don''t need a certificate to know how good and valuable one stone is. You may just find a dealer that you trust and ask his own opinion.

The good point about AGL is that it makes a difference between classical Burma and "new" Burma ; I feel that in the future the difference in price between Mogok and Mong Shu will increase...


Anyway, you shouldn''t believe that just because a stone isn''t graded by AGL it is not pure red.
 

shasavan7

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It is a 2.08 "Classic" unheated Burma (Mogok), color/tone 2.5/70, color rating 2-3/70, clarity MI-1, brilliancy 70%, cutting grade 3-4. Very, very bright cherry lifesaver red stone, does not black out under any light conditions I have seen yet. The stone has an amazing, almost creamy richness, I suppose, due to the silk that is present. Cushion cut.
I''ve tried, so far unsucessfully, to take pictures that capture the red qualityof the stone, but they all seem to wash out. You can see it here:

http://www.preciousgemstones.com/208burucert.jpg
 

open culet

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Jan 27, 2006
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Hi,
I have only skimmed the other posts, so I apologize if this has been covered.
I think it is essential that when you find the right ruby, you can take it on approval and view it in many different lighting situations, your home, day, night, in your car, essentially everywhere. Rubies can really look different in different lights, regardless of how "good" the cert is.
What you do not want is to buy one and then discover that you do not like the way it looks in some lights. Needless to say the ruby will look its very best in the retail store.
I would suggest taking some time in this purchase, as what you want is not plentiful.
Good Luck.
 
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