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Buying a ring (2.5 round, ideal cut etc), need some advice

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johnm

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Mar 22, 2009
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Hello everyone :)

(Apologies in advance since you probably get these messages a lot ;) I tried searching but it''s kind of hard because everyone''s searching for something slightly different!).

I''m about to propose soon, and I have been learning way more than I ever thought I would know about diamonds over the last year. I''ve also been recently going to jewelry shops with my girlfriend to see what she likes.

We''re looking for a round diamond between 2 and 2.5 (my gf closer to 2.5, and my wallet closer to 2 ;) ). We definitely want an ideal cut with excellent symmetry and polish, it''s very important to my girlfriend that it sparkles a lot. Based on looking at diamonds and talking to a lot of people, I think we''ve settled on G color and VS2. My budget is low 20s, i.e. < 22K.

We''ve had quotations from stores for 22K for a 2.45 (like above, but H color). But people are now telling us that that price is not really possible, so something must be off (i.e. inclusions in bad spot, angles being off). What do you all think?

How big of a G diamond as described above do you think I could get for 22K?

Thanks a lot, obviously this is a very big purchase for me so I really appreciate your wisdom :)

cheers,
John
 
Welcome to PS.

who are these people?

I think it's not really possible to get a 2.45 H VS2 for 22K, either.

What's the grading report, EGL/unknown, or GIA/AGS/HRD?
 
I took 5 minutes and did a quick general search on the net.
and Found a RB H VS1 GIA certed 2ct (#17177114)
2.4 on the HCA (not perfect)
2.5 might be possible?
I say look everywhere you can think of, someone might just have to sell just what your looking for.

It took me the better part of a year to find my RB diamond for the price I wanted to pay.
I started looking for a 1+ct for that deal price and ended up with a 1.4 RB VS2 from a seller.
 
The grading report for the 2.45 H was GIA.

BTW sorry to jump around, but I was just giving that as an example. I think we''ve narrowed it down to G at this point, after discussion with two different family friends who''re in the jewelery business.
 
Date: 3/23/2009 3:08:04 AM
Author: johnm
The grading report for the 2.45 H was GIA.

BTW sorry to jump around, but I was just giving that as an example. I think we''ve narrowed it down to G at this point, after discussion with two different family friends who''re in the jewelery business.
Click to expand...
If you like, if you find a diamond that looks promising, post the details which will be on the report here ( depth, table, angles and so forth) and we can take a look for you.
 
And...for a different kind of reference point...



Date: 3/23/2009 3:08:04 AM
Author: johnm
The grading report for the 2.45 H was GIA.

BTW sorry to jump around, but I was just giving that as an example. I think we've narrowed it down to G at this point, after discussion with two different family friends who're in the jewelery business.
Click to expand...
For your friends in the jewelery business...as Julie pointed out...you may want to ask them what certification they were pointing to. Although GIA provides the reference point for color (and clarity) grading for all certification, the pattern of actually adopting it for those graded by other than GIA and AGS are not the same (i.e., various EGL labs, and others).

(edited to add...) then again...maybe someone else can tell me why this wouldn't be the one!
 
Thanks, I'll definitely post details as I find them.

The strange thing I'm seeing is that bluenile is showing 2.0F and 2.1G at pretty much the same price (22K)! Both GIA, VS2, Ex cut/symmetry/polish. It looks like anything higher than 2.2G is out of my price range (I also checked the pricescope search tool). For that small of a carat difference, I'd definitely go for the 2.0 F..


Carat weight: 2.01
Cut: Ideal
Color: F
Clarity: VS2
Price per carat: $11,249
Depth %: 62.6%
Table %: 58%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.03 x 8.06 x 5.04 mm
Stock number: LD01078471
The GIA report for this one isn't up yet, so I can't see the angles.


Carat weight: 2.12
Cut: Ideal
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Price per carat: $10,448
Depth %: 61.6%
Table %: 56%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium, faceted
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.24 x 8.29 x 5.09 mm
crown angle: 35%
pavilion angle: 40.8%
 
The angles on the G are probably better than the F.

also, diameter of 8.27 vs 8.05
 
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..

Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The "issue" I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
 
If you want G+, VS2+, I would just get a top-cut 2 ct.

No way you're going to get anywhere close to 2.5, so I wouldn't bother trying to fudge the cut a little just for a 2.25 or something.
 
Date: 3/23/2009 11:56:56 PM
Author: johnm
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..

Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The ''issue'' I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
Click to expand...
Something has got to give here unfortunately. You pointed out that sparkle is important to her, however you need to make a sacrifice somewhere and it shouldn''t be cut.

A well cut H is going to face up very white. Why bother with a VS2 when an EYECLEAN Si1 will look the same?

You need to decide - size, clarity, colour or cut? Or up your budget, which I don''t think is necessary.
 
Date: 3/23/2009 11:56:56 PM
Author: johnm
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..

Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The ''issue'' I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
Click to expand...
Johnm,

I think your friends don''t understand that AGS trumps GIA among most on this board, and generally. Also, though it is not goof proof, AGS0 is a default for a well cut stone. When you don''t have reflector images, which you don''t get from Blue Nile, you want to be able to have something that serves as a default for a well cut stone. Even BN has some AGS0s. Alternately, GIA excellent is not such a guarantee...nor is even a diamond with initially attractive angles a good enough guess about it being well enough cut.

So, I differ with your friends. You might want to research this further on this board, too. Or others you trust, who are knowledgeable.
 
Date: 3/24/2009 12:30:19 AM
Author: honey22

Date: 3/23/2009 11:56:56 PM
Author: johnm
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..

Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The ''issue'' I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
Click to expand...
Something has got to give here unfortunately. You pointed out that sparkle is important to her, however you need to make a sacrifice somewhere and it shouldn''t be cut.

A well cut H is going to face up very white. Why bother with a VS2 when an EYECLEAN Si1 will look the same?

You need to decide - size, clarity, colour or cut? Or up your budget, which I don''t think is necessary.
Click to expand...
Ditto, you could go to H colour SI clarity if eyeclean with no visual sacrifice and that could get you closer to 2.5cts.
 
Date: 3/23/2009 11:56:56 PM
Author: johnm
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..


Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The ''issue'' I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
Click to expand...


John I know you said she''s dead set against an SI stone BUT she wants a bigger stone (who doesn''t?). Something will have to give. With your budget (btw it''s a very nice budget!), she may be able to get what she wants if she''s willing to get an eye clean stone. Has she seen an EYE CLEAN SI? Take her somewhere so she can see that you can''t tell the diff. btwn a VS2 and an EYE CLEAN SI stone. When looking I wanted a VS stone also..well I soon realized with our budget if I got the VS, the stone was going to be substantially smaller. The good ppl here on PS, made me realize that SI stones can be beautiful. Once I saw it for myself, I knew it was a no brainer..the SI it was..and I got my larger stone!

GL with your search. PPL on here will help you out tremendously
35.gif
 
John, I have a 2.52 G, VS2 and while you have a great budget, it''s not enough. Like others have said, something''s gotta give.

I think Julie is right about keeping it around the 2ct mark to get the color and clarity combo you want as well as getting a good looking stone.

Regarding the two stones for BN, the G 2.12 looks better, much better on paper.
 
Thanks everyone for the great information, it''s extremely useful :) I find it very hard to trust what sales people are telling me, hearing information from this forum I don''t have to filter it for any biases!

elle_chris: I''m just curious, how can you tell that the G is much better than the F? Just from the table/depth percentages? Or because the girdle is medium to slightly thick?

I actually agree with you guys regarding going for a really good cut H (I did a blind experiment on my gf and she couldn''t tell between G''s & H''s!) or an eye clean SI. But she''s still deadset against those for the time being, although she''s now realizing we won''t be able to find a 2.5G, so perhaps she''ll sacrifice one of other factors...

Regular Guy: I will definitely let the family friend who''s now looking know we''re fine with AGS, thanks for the info.

BTW, for H''s, we have more than one offer from stores for a 2.45 for 22.5K. VS2/Ex/Ex/Ex, but I don''t have the table percentages.
 
Bigger spread, smaller table and the crown and pavilion numbers aren't raising red flags.

I'm not a fan of the 58 table on the F, and I'm not loving the depth either.

EDTA: Again, this is all based on the numbers. but when buying from a vendor that doesn't provide any other info., that's all you have to go on.
 
John, you don''t want to go much over a 62 depth because you''ll be losing spread. Meaning, it''ll look small for it''s size. For crown keep it at 34-35, pavilion 40.6-41. As far as tables, i hate ''em and like stones with very small ones (54-57 is what you''re most likely going to see on well cut ones.)
These are just "my" guildelines when I look based on all the info. I''ve see here. There are other combos out there that can be gorgeous as well. I just don''t know enough about them to chance it. Hopefully someone else with a broader knowledge base will chime in.

If you can get the GIA number on the H, we can look it up and let you know what we think.
 
OK, I think I found a very good deal on bluenile, and I wanted to get the experts'' opinion first :)

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-2-carat-ideal-cut-g-color-vs2-clarity_LD01012919

It''s

Stock number: LD01012919
Price: $21,872
Bank wire price: $21,544
Carat weight: 2.20
Cut: Ideal
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Price per carat: $9,942
Depth %: 61.9%
Table %: 57%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.33 x 8.39 x 5.17 mm
Crown: 33%
Pavilion: 41.4%

The crown is a little less than what Elle suggested, but everything else looks great and the price is much cheaper than other comparable diamonds.

Thanks!
 
The pavilion angles is too deep for that crown angle. Sorry, not a good cut.
 
Date: 3/27/2009 12:59:05 AM
Author: johnm
OK, I think I found a very good deal on bluenile, and I wanted to get the experts' opinion first :)

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-2-carat-ideal-cut-g-color-vs2-clarity_LD01012919

It's

Stock number: LD01012919
Price: $21,872
Bank wire price: $21,544
Carat weight: 2.20
Cut: Ideal
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Price per carat: $9,942
Depth %: 61.9%
Table %: 57%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.33 x 8.39 x 5.17 mm
Crown: 33%
Pavilion: 41.4%

The crown is a little less than what Elle suggested, but everything else looks great and the price is much cheaper than other comparable diamonds.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
The pavilion angle is really too deep period to get the best out of the diamond, I would look for a pavilion angle between 40.6 and 41 degrees.
 
Thanks for the info guys, I guess it was too good to be true :)

I spent two hours reading up about HCA and now I think I understand the angles more. There are 2.1s with the same price that are 0.9 on HCA which looks like a better deal (and really, how can my gf see 0.5 mm difference?).

So just to confirm my understanding, basically the lower the HCA score (anything under 2) means it''ll sparkle more? That''s what my girlfriend really wants.

Thanks for the help as always.
 
Date: 3/27/2009 3:18:49 PM
Author: johnm
Thanks for the info guys, I guess it was too good to be true :)

I spent two hours reading up about HCA and now I think I understand the angles more. There are 2.1s with the same price that are 0.9 on HCA which looks like a better deal (and really, how can my gf see 0.5 mm difference?).

So just to confirm my understanding, basically the lower the HCA score (anything under 2) means it'll sparkle more? That's what my girlfriend really wants.

Thanks for the help as always.
Click to expand...



The HCA is used for elimination not selection, basically scores below 2 mean the diamond is worth further evaluation. This is done with ASET and Idealscope images where possible. Personally I prefer a less steep pavilion angle, with top cut diamonds, regardless of the crown angle 41.4 is too steep for my liking. I can post some numbers which may help you to use as a guide. As you can see there are various configurations which can work well together to provide you with a beautiful diamond for your GF. You can use the numbers to help you plus the HCA, then if you are working online request ASET and or IS images from the vendor. Then you can always post your contenders here as you have done for opinions.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

From expert John Pollard.



"As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.



With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near complementary angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.




GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35)."
 
Date: 3/23/2009 11:56:56 PM
Author: johnm
atroop711: No at this point I''m looking for VS2, my girlfriend is dead set against SI..

Regular Guy: my friends were basing off GIA certificates. The diamond you pointed out is definitely nice. The ''issue'' I''m trying to figure out is that my girlfriend really wants something closer to 2.5, which is too far out of my budget.. More researching :)
Click to expand...
then find yourself a new gf, JK
28.gif
tell her SI1 eye clean stones are thee best value.
 
OK, I found what looks to be a great deal on a stone that has very nice proportions:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-2-carat-ideal-cut-g-color-vs2-clarity_LD01271609?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=1

Stock number: LD01271609
Price: $21,472
Bank wire price: $21,150
Carat weight: 2.10
Cut: Ideal
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Price per carat: $10,225
Depth %: 60.7%
Table %: 56%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.26 x 8.35 x 5.04 mm
Crown: 34%
Pavilion: 40.8%


HCA:
Factor Grade
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 0.9 - Excellent
within TIC range


What do you guys think?

As for Dancing Fire: I totally see your and others points about eye clean stone, but I''ve accepted that I can''t convince her ;) She now asks for a magnifying glass when we go into stores!!
 
Yes this one looks promising John - well done! I would put it on hold if you are seriously thinking about it.
 
Thanks for looking Lorelei. I have one question for you: do you think the occlusions would be eye visible? They''re mostly in the center, so I''m wondering if their location is the reason for the "great deal"?

Here''s the GIA report: http://www.bluenile.com/certs/7/GIA16768079_zoom.jpeg

Thanks,
John
 
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