"Buried" GIA Report?

[AGBF]

This is not a topic about which I usually read or post, so I am making a foray into unknown territory and may make some mistakes in interpreting what I was told.

Recently a jeweler told me that he had stopped his membership in AGS because he could not live with what he called their "unethical" stances on cut. I believe that his main point was that he believed that between the time of the Old European Cut/Old Mine Cut and the modern cut that some of the most sparkling diamonds were cut. That would be in the 1935-1945 period, if I understood him correctly.

He seemed to be saying that the table to depth ratio used then was often superior to what is now called "ideal". He said that the many "scopes" (Firescope, Brilliancescope, Idealscope, etcetera) were marketing tools. He also mentioned an ancient one of which I had never heard that supposedly started the scope business.

He said that jewelers wanted the small table to depth ratio so as to increase carat weight (and thus price) on what would otherwise be less weighty diamonds and that this was simply unethical. He said that a GIA study bore out what he had seen with his own eyes when viewing the diamonds cut during this transition period. He also said that people now selling the "ideal" cuts would be forced to eat the words said in their praise and that he could have hearts and arrows put onto any diamond with $50.00 (presumably to a cutter).

Some of you (especially the engineer types) love this type of discussion. I am hoping that this time I will be able to follow what is said.

Who knows to which GIA study he was referring? Is Dave Atlas around to comment on that period in cutting?

Deborah

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/25/2005 11:25:50 AM
Author:AGBF

He said that a GIA study bore out what he had seen with his own eyes when viewing the diamonds cut during this transition period...
Who knows to which GIA study he was referring ?

A seller who refuses to use some marketing tool on ethical ground might just be the rarest of birds.

The respective GIA study could be the new one talked about so much on the forum since it does widen the range of recognized desirable proportions compared to the old AGS0, not to mention H&A.

Did he mention that the research he was talking about was contemporary with the transitional cuts ? That would be really interesting to see.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/25/2005 11:42

5 AM
Author: valeria101

The respective GIA study could be the new one
...
Did he mention that the research he was talking about was contemporary with the transitional cuts ? That would be really interesting to see.

He did not mention when it was done, but said that the research or the report had been "buried". He *may* have meant that *UNTIL* the present GIA study that no one was addressing issues such as the sparkle of the transitional cut period, though, and thus that the issue was "buried". As I said, this is not something I usually discuss.

Deb

 

[denverappraiser]

AGS retailers are not required to use any marketing materials or tools that they are uncomfortable with. These are independent businesses. They are not required to sell diamonds that have been graded by AGS lab and they are welcomed to describe their stones in any truthful fashion they choose. There is more to this jewelers story and I’ld be willing to bet that it’s about the money.

An AGS retailer who bases his sales pitch on disparaging the other AGS stores would probably not be much appreciated and I would expect them to be ejected from the club for this practice but this isn’t what would normally be described as ‘giving up his AGS membership’. Quality dealers build up their own products instead of tearing down their competitors. Let the customers decide who has the best pitch.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 4/25/2005 1

5:25 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Quality dealers build up their own products instead of tearing down their competitors.

Neil......very succinctly said. I made the very same comment to someone else about a week ago, and it''s a great point that bears repeating.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/25/2005 1

5:25 PM
Author: denverappraiser
There is more to this jewelers story and I'd be willing to bet that it's about the money.

Please spell his out, Neil. I can't read between the lines. What is your theory about why this jeweler is saying what he says? Please also explain whether AGS members can throw each other out of AGS!

Deb

 

[AGBF]

I just used the "locate a jeweler" function on the AGS website and saw that only two "private" jewelers, plus Tiffany, were listed out of the multitude of jewelers in the Connecticut cities/towns where I used to shop. Given how few jewelers seem to belong to AGS, why would it be unusual for a former member to opt out?

Deborah

 

[denverappraiser]

Deb,

Yes, they can throw out a jeweler who doesn''t meet their standards and this occasionally happens. There is no way to know if this is the case with the jeweler that you are talking with but I doubt it, it''s not all that common. There are several AGS people on this forum and they may have a way to tell.

The jewelers pay dues to be members. It''s quite expensive. The usual reason to be a member is because of the status associated with it and the implied connection with those other fine stores. This can be helpful in relations with both customers and vendors. AGS stores are, in general, very good firms. The reason to drop it is the expense. Both sides are perfectly valid business decisions and will depend on the details for that particular store.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[MissAva]

What is the best/safest way to locate a reputable jewler in your area? Are there books you can buy like resturatn guides? Please excuse my ignorance.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/25/2005 1:34:13 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Yes, they can throw out a jeweler who doesn''t meet their standards and this occasionally happens. ...it''s not all that common.
...
The jewelers pay dues to be members. It''s quite expensive. The usual reason to be a member is because of the status associated with it and the implied connection with those other fine stores. This can be helpful in relations with both customers and vendors. AGS stores are, in general, very good firms. The reason to drop it is the expense. Both sides are perfectly valid business decisions and will depend on the details for that particular store.

Thanks for the lucid explanation, Neil. It makes sense that money would be a reason to cease one''s membership. It also makes sense that if one were not in sync with AGS, that he would not want to pay an arm and a leg to be part of it (especially once his business was established, as this jeweler''s business is).

Deb

 

[oldminer]

I opted out of AGS in December 1997 after 25 years of membership. I agreed with the goals of AGS, but was cut out of some of the most interesting features since as a wholesale member I was not allowed to obtain the CGA title or use our CG credentials on our grading reports. The AGS claimed appraising was a "retail function" and as a wholesaler, I was not entitled to issue documents as if I was an AGS Retailer Member. My opinion then and still is that one does not offer appraisals in the market at "wholesale" or "retail", but one provides a service to all comers, just in the same way a doctor treats patients or a teacher informs students. There is NO wholesale or retailing of appraisal opinions.

I regrettfully resigned from AGS rather than make make powerful enemies and because a Federal lawsuit against what I saw as a restraint of trade would have exhausted my savings and gotten me nowhere. Sometimes it is better to just do a good job than to make trouble. I had many fine AGS retailers as wholesale clients at that time and I did not wish to make them take their business elsewhere.

As far as older cuts being beautiful and somewhat different than today's cuts, the answer is a few of these older stones were indeed very fine looking and highly brilliant. This is not news, but all dealers know it. Somehow what this retailer is telling you sounds like BS in general. Now that is just an uninformed opinion, but the AGS is pretty smart about what makes a fine looking diamond and few old cuts were cut in a way that would meet the high performance of today's finest modern cuts. There'd be no reason to quit AGS over such a strange argument. You can sell what you like as an AGS retail member so long as you are truthful. Maybe "truthful" is the operative word here.....hint, hint../.....

Does this seller have lots of supposedly super older cuts? Is this a tactic to sell a niche market, or to sell something his competitor does not stock? Something is not quite right.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Dismissing all scopes out of hand as "marketing tools" would be enough for me ignore the rest of what this guy has to say.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/25/2005 3:11:27 PM
Author: oldminer
Does this seller have lots of supposedly super older cuts? Is this a tactic to sell a niche market, or to sell something his competitor does not stock? Something is not quite right.

It is possible he has older cuts. I don''t know. I wasn''t in his shop to look at loose stones and although he had a lot of old-looking jewelry mountings (some of them copies of old pieces), I do not generally like antique jewelry and wasn''t looking at it. (A friend of mine was.)

There is no doubt that the guy loves antique settings. I don''t know about the stones he sells, however. He only got into talking about the subject when I mentioned I had an unset stone, but that it wasn''t an ideal cut, being more of the 60/60 style. THAT is when he suddenly began to talk! It was as if I had pushed a button! If he wanted to sell me something he should have pushed a mounting on me! He knew I already had one stone too many!

Deborah