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BrillianceScope Animation

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Hongerhond

Rough_Rock
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Jan 28, 2003
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51
I have been playing with this nifty little feature, BrillianceScope Animation, that some vendors have on their sites. Lots of fun, but I am a beginner and not really sure what I am seeing.

I have been looking at ~1 carat, D-F, VS1-SI1, H&A, Superbcert diamonds ranging in price from about $6,000 to $10,000.

The funny thing is, out of the five that I picked, the cheapest one at $6,000 consistently catches my eye as being the brightest! Is this possible or is it my imagination? Is the performance on the BrillianceScope a reliable indicator of the diamond''s performance? Is this enough of a reason to choose this diamond?
 

DiamondOptics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
380
The brilliance scope is a comparitive tool, just like anything else it faces criticism. Many have made their decisions based on this tool, but there are several other tools as well to help you make an informed decision, like the HCA, ideal scope, firescope,
gem advisor and so forth.

I completely understand how some people may choose one
technology as the determining factor, but these tools
are all there for your benefit. Learn more about all this
stuff, to make a more informed decision.

Kirk
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213
Going to have to agree with DiamondOptics. The BScope is one tool in many to aid you in selecting your diamond.

From what I've been told, the Bscope is a varable tool, that often ranges with -2/+2 percent. Still very accurate. When I took my superbcert diamond to get appraised, the BScope result was actually a little better (and it was phenominal to begin with).

Diamonds are usually cheaper than others for a reason. Maybe one is cut a little better, maybe it has floresence, or has different types of inclusions in bad spots. Could be that the dealer has another stone that's very similar so he's trying to get rid of one of the two.

Why don't you post links to the stones and maybe we can help you discover why one is cheaper than the others.
 

Hongerhond

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
51
None of the stones has floresence. I thought that the "shiniest" one would be the one with the best cut?

OK, here they are:

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=289696&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1057/v.cgi?stock=271615&_s=1057&_p=abaz83&_c=&_fs=2&prestock=

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1057/v.cgi?stock=281703&_s=1057&_p=abaz83&_c=&_fs=2&prestock=

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1057/v.cgi?stock=289690&_s=1057&_p=abaz83&_c=&_fs=2&prestock=
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213
The least expensive one is that way for a few reasons reasons. First, it's the only SI1 stone that you have selected, and to my untrained eye it's a really messy SI1. Lots of inclusions all over the place. It's also an F, whereas the other stones are E, and it's the smallest of all the choices. That being said, the BScope result is very nice, and the cut looks good.

Personally, I like the 1.19 the best.

And just to make life dificult on you....

http://www.superbcert.com/products/index.cfm?Product_ID=324&Product_Subcategory_ID=3&Product_Category_ID=3&Product_Group_ID=1
http://www.superbcert.com/products/index.cfm?Product_ID=70&Product_Subcategory_ID=3&Product_Category_ID=3&Product_Group_ID=1
http://www.superbcert.com/products/index.cfm?Product_ID=95&Product_Subcategory_ID=3&Product_Category_ID=3&Product_Group_ID=1

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_01ct_e_vs2_h&a.htm
http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_01ct_f_vs2_h&a2.htm
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1045/i.cgi?diaid=464090&_t=c
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
You can do a search here on the brilliancescope to get more information and various opinions on its validity.
 

Hongerhond

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
51
I assume then that the messy SI1 is not eye clean? If it is, I can live with it.

Darn, looks like I'll have to spend at least $7,000 to get what I want. I was hoping to get away with spending $6,000, but it looks like that will be too much of a compromise quality wise.

Thank you for checking out the stones, I really appreciate it.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,146

----------------
On 2/10/2003 7:22:48 PM Hongerhond wrote:
I assume then that the messy SI1 is not eye clean; If it is, I can live with it.

Darn, looks like I'll have to spend at least $7,000 to get what I want I was hoping to get away with spending $6,000, but it looks like that will be too much of a compromise quality wise.

----------------
Hongerhond, just my opinion, but I think the $6,100 stone is a great buy. It scores 1.3 on the HCA, has fabulous light return on the B/scope, and is REASONABLY PRICED. If it is indeed eye-clean to the naked eye (which it SHOULD be), then I'd positively save the $1,000 and go with this one.

Keep in mind that the photos you see of the least expensive stone are shown on a dark-field illumination to make sure that you can see the inclusions, and it makes them look DRAMATIC. If you look at the "white" picture of the $6,100 stone directly next to the picture of the $7,100 stone, they look nearly IDENTICAL to the naked eye.

I don't think that the least expensive stone is a compromise of quality in any meaningful way.

Good luck.
 

Hongerhond

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
51
"Reasonable"? Not "great", not even "good"? Do you mean I could do better and should keep looking?
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213
Hey, if you can get the stone you want for the price you want, and you don't care about the inclusions, don't let anyone tell you differently (unless they're an expert)


If it's eye clean, it's eye clean no matter if it's an SI1 or a IF.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Chiming in a little late but I agree that the SI1 does look a little messy regardless of the darkfield illumination vs white light. That cloud in the table is monstrous! Also there is what appears to be the indented natural on the girdle. Compare the VS2 you are considering (1.03 F VS2?) vs the F SI1 picture and you will see a huge difference in the plot pictures.

SI1 technically should be eye clean but that does not mean you will not see the inclusions, some people can pick out SI1 inclusions with their naked eye very easily...the SI grade is one of the more heavily discussed grades for the reason that it is on the cusp between easily seen inclusions and hard to see or non-visible. People with good eyes will see the inclusions in some SI stones, other ones may not. There are very clean SI stones and slightly sloppy ones. Grading is done by the eye as well, so it's all very subjective to the viewer.

Personally if you are buying online, I suggest to go with a VS2 at least. That way you don't have to worry about it being eye clean esp if the plot is messy. You won't know if that SI1 is eye-clean until it arrives on your doorstep. Is that a chance you are willing to take? If the plot was cleaner I might advise differently, but again this is just my two cents.

One last comment...on spending $6k vs $7k...don't skimp on this purchase. $1k over the next 20 years or more will seem like a penny in the bucket when you are purchasing something as important as a diamond. You're going to spend the $6k anyway, why not get a slightly better stone for the extra money and not worry about it being eye-clean.

The stones all look great...I just wanted to chime in on the SI1 debate. I think one of theother stones would be better.
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213

----------------
On 2/11/2003 4
6
2 PM Mara wrote:
One last comment...on spending $6k vs $7k...don't skimp on this purchase. $1k over the next 20 years or more will seem like a penny in the bucket when you are purchasing something as important as a diamond. You're going to spend the $6k anyway, why not get a slightly better stone for the extra money and not worry about it being eye-clean.

----------------
Best advice ever. When you no longer notice the extra $1000 the stone cost you, you'll still notice the stone.

My deal with my girlfriend was that she could have whatever she wanted, but I wasn't getting married until it was completely paid off
It's nice to know I'll never have any regrets about my stone because I paid the extra $$$

 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,146

Hongerhund, no.....I did not mean that you should keep looking or that you could do better. I didn't even mean to suggest that the price wasn't good, or even great. By reasonably priced, I meant that it was priced within your stated budget and offers SPECTACULAR performance.

Regarding the VS2/SI1 thing: Yes, the SI-1 does look "messy" when viewed under magnification...but I went with what you said was important to you. You said you can live with it as long as it's eye-clean. So yes, the plots look different, but that's irrelevant if the stone is eye-clean when viewed with the naked eye.

Mara's right that some people can discern SI-1 inclusions. The question is, can you? can your girlfriend? She makes a great point about being a bit more cautious about considering the purchase of an SI-1 stone online, but there are several ways to remedy that concern.

1. If your vendor's return policy is generous, you can purchase the SI-1 stone knowing that you can return it and order the other one if you don't like it's performance.

2. You can send it to an appraiser prior to purchase to ease your mind. Most people do this anyway for insurance purposes and peace of mind, so the only "extra" expense is shipping charges which is far less the the $1,000 difference in stones.

3. If you aren't *that* ruffled by expanding your budget or if you'd be inconvenienced at the possibility of having to return the stone, then spend the $1,000 extra and get the VS stone.


You have to decide what you can live with and what price you are comfortable with. It's easy for all of us to be "quality police" because we aren't the ones fronting the extra $1,000 over our budget. It's very subjective....I may think something is worth $1,000 that you don't....or maybe you do. It's important to repeat....THESE ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL STONES.....we're getting into micro judgments here.

There will always be a whiter, better clarity, more perfect stone out there if you're willing to pay for it. Mara has mentioned repeatedly that her stone leans toward the shallow side and that its rated AGS 7, but SHE LOVES IT. That doesn't make it any less beautiful than an AGS000...the pics of it are gorgeous....stunning! She knew chose it because it spoke to her. The question becomes "what is YOUR cut-off point"....and only you can decide.

Good luck.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Lugus--are you sure that you weren't just trying to buy some extra time before shackling yourself to your sweetie permanently with the whole 'we're not getting married til I pay off your huge rock' shpiel? 'Sure...buy that 4carat ring..sounds good to me!'


One last comment to add to my earlier post and AL's great detailed post showing the other side of the coin--The difference between the SI and one of the VS2's is around $900 if I remember correctly from earlier. That is a bit of money..it's not nothing. But when you start to think about having to send it to an independent appraiser to 'see' if it's eye clean then that $900 difference starts to shrink. You should have it appraised anyway regardless, but not everyone will. So if you do send it to RockDoc or similar, and pay maybe $300 to have it appraised, you've now shrunk down that savings to $600. What if the stone doesn't check out? You have to pay to send it back to the vendor and you are STILL looking for a stone. Say at that point you choose one of the VS2's for $7000 or around there. Not only did you not save the original $900 but now you are out the extra $300 for the appraisal on the SI that you sent back.

I am not saying that is how it will happen--that is one possibility--the one that may end up costing you more money. The stone could check out GREAT and you are very happy with it. But just keep in mind that as you start to narrow down the stones to your decision, if you are concerned with saving $$$ and getting a great deal, then going with a slightly higher quality for an unseen internet purchase may save you some wasted time, a headache and a few extra bucks down the road.

AL is right..its easy for us to be 'quality police' but you are spending a pretty large sum of money here--get what you feel comfortable with, whether it is the SI stone or a VS.
It's your decision in the end.

BTW the reason I am being so vocal about this particular SI stone is that I have picked out a few SI1 inclusions in stones I have seen with my naked eye...and then when compared them to their GIA cert or similar afterwards...found that the plot was a pretty good indicator of how eye-clean the stone was to me at the time. So when I look at this plot...to me it says it may not be that eye-clean.

 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Oh and check out this stone at NiceIce....1.03 F VS2 Hearts and Arrows stone for $6800. Nice reports--look at the mathematical ray report.

http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/102fvs2_gia12246191/index.htm

Maybe something like this is a compromise between the SI and the cheapest VS2? But even then the cheapest SuperbCert VS2 is only $7000 which is not bad at all.
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Not all SI's are uniform or to be
dismissed, and judging from their
2-dimensional GIA plot doesn't even begin to tell you the story.

You can't judge the exact position, color, density
and reflecting properties of the inclusions.
For example, center-table inclusions that look awful on
the plot may be terrifically eye-clean, resulting
in a great buy for you. Dark-field illumination photos
depict in magnified close-ups the inclusions and give
you no information about "eye-clean" status.
For that you'll need the vendor to provide you with
white light and tungsten light photo's as well as loupe the
stone for you.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213

----------------
On 2/11/2003 7:20
4 PM Mara wrote:
Lugus--are you sure that you weren't just trying to buy some extra time before shackling yourself to your sweetie permanently with the whole 'we're not getting married til I pay off your huge rock' shpiel? 'Sure...buy that 4carat ring..sounds good to me!'

BTW the reason I am being so vocal about this particular SI stone is that I have picked out a few SI1 inclusions in stones I have seen with my naked eye...and then when compared them to their GIA cert or similar afterwards...found that the plot was a pretty good indicator of how eye-clean the stone was to me at the time. So when I look at this plot...to me it says it may not be that eye-clean.

----------------
Mara, I have no idea what you're talking about
Truth of it is, I love her very much and wanted her to have exactly what she wanted, no matter what.


I also wanted to point out that the inclusion thing works in reverse too. The plot on my VS1 was pretty ugly for a VS1, but after having it appraised it seems that someone at GIA just went pencil happy
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,276
Not sure whether you got it or not but the 1.01ct E VS2 referenced in this thread was just purchased today. If it was you CONGRATS.
If not, good luck in your search. We just got in about 30 newbies who haven't been posted yet.

Lugus thanks for the references.


Peace,
Rhino
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213

----------------
On 2/11/2003 9:49:46 PM Rhino wrote:

Lugus thanks for the references.


Peace,
Rhino----------------

Anytime Jonathon. Even though I went with the superbcert, it really did come down to size. Your service was wonderful and that other stone is going to make someone really, really happy.

 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Barry..I definitely agree that not all SI1s are uniform or to be dismissed, and I also know that judging a stone from a plot or a photo does not give the entire big picture. But again...when purchasing online I feel that it is better to err on the side of caution when spending thousands of dollars on such an important purchase--my personal preference. There are plusses and minuses for all the stones posted, all comments here are to help the original poster narrow down his stone selection with our opinions. The decision is ultimately his. Maybe the vendor can shed some light on this particular stone's eye-cleanliness for us?

Lugus ..of course!!
I'm just yanking your chain a bit. She will be so excited when she gets that stunner. I wish I could be a fly on the wall.
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Mara;

Absolutely agree with you. We are on the same page
RE: SI clarity grades. Be cautious on the internet,
especially as the majority of internet sellers provide
little pertinent information regarding the diamonds they
sell beyond the obligatory cert. Certainly there is a
paucity of clear information on the SI's, and therefore
consumers gingerly approach SI's with trepidation.

There are excellent quality SI's to be had on the market
providing value on par with VS grades. Descriptive
evidence provided/demanded by Vendors/Consumers
is currently available and of great value and assistance.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,146
Hongerhund: As you can see, there are as many different opinions are there are posters!

Mara's personal choice would be to stay above an SI-1 when ordering online; others feel that there are great deals to be had in procuring an eye-clean SI-1 stone. Mara points out the the plot looks messy; Lugus points out that his diamond was appraised much stronger than his plot, which also looked a bit sloppy on paper.

Some people have been disappointed with their experiences online; others have been disappointed with their experiences at B&M stores. I personally think that the internet climate tries harder because they know people are already skittish about buying online. Most of the reputable ones go out of their way to accurately represent their stones and to use technological tools like B/scope and Ideal-scope, etc. which help you "see it" without seeing it in person. Honestly, I think that it's much easier to get taken or fleeced at your local mall than it is here for the educated shopper.

Bottom line: You have to decide what your comfortable with; there is an inherent level of risk in every purchase one makes. You also have to decide if your budget is expandable or not.

In making your decision, know this: you ABSOLUTELY can get a gorgeous stone without compromising quality for your stated budget of $6000 if you wish to.

Good luck....it'd be nice to know what you ultimately decide.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,146
whoops - sorry for double post
 

Hongerhond

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
51
Thanks everybody, I'm learning a lot from you guys (and I'm getting a little confused too...)

I spend today in San Francisco to get my son's passport renewed, as we fly to Europe on Sunday and I discovered yesterday that his passport had expired. Imagine the panic. The good news is: you can get a new one within a day. My appointment was at 10 a.m. and I picked up the pasport at 4 p.m.

That left me with about five hours to kill in downtown San Francisco. Sooo, guess what I did? That is correct, I went diamond browsing! Well, what an experience. I tried to test out my newfound knowledge of diamonds, and boy, did I get a lot of blank stares. Two stores quoted me a set price an any "1 carat/VS2/E". They didn't even have the stones, but "all their stones are the same price if they have the same specifications". Cut was never mentioned. I ran away. One store was better, but still not enough info on cut. They have never heard of Hearts and Arrows or Superbcert either.

I guess I didn't go to the best of the best, but so far it looks like online is the way to go for me. Saves 8% sales tax too...

BTW, I am not a guy shopping for an engagement ring. This year is our 10th anniversary and hubby agreed to buy the stone if I can find it.
 

Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213
Sounds typical of my experience with local vendors, Hongerhound. I ended up buying online simply because I couldn't find the quality I required from local stores.

Good luck in your hunt.
 
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