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Brian Gavin''s article: Visible Effects of Painting & Digging on Superideals

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WinkHPD

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WOW! I did a few diamcalc pictures this morning for a presentation next week, judging by how long it took me I can only begin to imagine how many hours you spend doing just the diamcalc pictures for this presentation.

Thank you for spending this much time on such a complex issue. My head hurts but I will read it again in an hour or two and again at least twice tomorrow, eventually I will begin to understand a fraction of what you have given us.

I wish we had a little bowing down smilie to use, this is way above and beyond.

Wink
 

belle

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there is a lot of information here to digest but i just wanted to say a huge ''thank you'' for taking the time to put this together.
 

Rhino

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Excellent job. Especially regarding your summary how all stones that feature painting or digging should not be stereotyped and the fact that minor amounts of digging impact the appearance moreso than painting does on the crown alone to a greater degree. Just a question if you''re reading Brian or perhaps John can answer. When you list "average crown painting" etc. I am noticing that painting is described on the Helium reports in negative degree increments while digging in positive degree increments. I''m assuming you just left out which orientation (negative or positive) the azimuth deviation is?

Also on page 2 of the article you state.

1A. Crown-Only Painting: No reduction in performance under the table. Gradual impact occurs along the girdle. In our experience the effects are not visible until ACP of 6-7° degrees (increased greens). The extent to which they are visible depends on overall configuration & optical symmetry. *Note that this applies to “superideal” diamonds with no pavilion painting or digging.
From the stones we''ve been able to examine so far (with super ideals) I''ve been able to note the visible differences once the ACP reaches around the 5 degree mark or what Sergey describes as "big" or "large" on the Helium. I noted that in your study the ACP of the example stones you''ve used jump from 4 degrees to 6.2. I was curious to know if you''ve had the chance yet to see/compare one around the 5 degree mark. In any case I agree 100% ... definitely visible at 6 degrees as you state and is one reason I personally feel AGS is being a little too liberal in their grading of this feature and favor GIA''s more conservative approach to this as 6 degrees still gets the Ideal grade from AGS.

Another thing I am personally finding ... when you compare the DiamCalc pictures of painting vs digging and the various degrees of it as compared to real world observation I''m finding that the Office Light view corellates pretty well with painting as you can see in the graphics the decrease of brightness but am not finding the same corellation with regards to digging. Ie. what we examine in real world actually appears worse than what the DC pictures are showing us as we can observe more darkness in dug out stones. Has this been your experience too?

Once again kudo''s.

 

strmrdr

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ok article but what are the Visible Effects of Painting & Digging?

I saw the effects on IS images and Aset but little on the actual appearance of the diamonds.
Just a suggestion have Brian pretend he is talking to a customer about each stone and describing the differences in appearance without being told which is which and someone take notes.

edit: mainly beacuse static images wouldnt show the effect of painting on the apearance anyway.
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 7:19:00 PM
Author: Wink
WOW! I did a few diamcalc pictures this morning for a presentation next week, judging by how long it took me I can only begin to imagine how many hours you spend doing just the diamcalc pictures for this presentation.

Thank you for spending this much time on such a complex issue. My head hurts but I will read it again in an hour or two and again at least twice tomorrow, eventually I will begin to understand a fraction of what you have given us.

I wish we had a little bowing down smilie to use, this is way above and beyond.

Wink
Thank you Wink - The article has been quite some time in the making, as we wanted to be certain we were representing the interests of the major labs correctly. To the end, we had great cooperation and input from both AGSL and GIA Laboratories. I know Brian would like to thank Garry Holloway, Sergey Sivovolenko and Marty Haske for peer review & input as well.

Without having to absorb a ton - Here is a shortcut to page 3, which I think our consumer enthusiasts will find most useful.

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/45/3/Visible-Effects-of-Painting--Digging-on-Superideal-Diamonds.aspx

It shows the proportions and actual Ideal-Scope and ASET images of 6 superideals with escalating degrees of crown-only painting as well as their corresponding AGS and GIA cut grades.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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John can you check the top contrast score on the normal stone in page 8 please?

(
36.gif
for all your work. Now I would like to see this done in steps of 0.2 degrees for pavilion and 0.5 degrees for crown angles on table sizes 50% to 63% please John. Then we can have some idea of the effects of painting and digging on diamond appearance. can you do that before lunch tomorrow?)

Really though John, you are to be congratulated.
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 8:58:34 PM
Author: Rhino


Excellent job. Especially regarding your summary how all stones that feature painting or digging should not be stereotyped and the fact that minor amounts of digging impact the appearance moreso than painting does on the crown alone to a greater degree. Just a question if you're reading Brian or perhaps John can answer. When you list 'average crown painting' etc. I am noticing that painting is described on the Helium reports in negative degree increments while digging in positive degree increments. I'm assuming you just left out which orientation (negative or positive) the azimuth deviation is?
Brian is out of the country right now so I will field the Qs and he can blame me if I misspeak.
2.gif
If you look on page 2 you can see how fast digging & pavilion painting impacts light return in the ASET metric. Compared to crown-only painting the other categories are a different, much-worse-much-faster ballgame.

To your question: We included negative and positive indicators in the first 2 graphics (painting versus digging) but treated them as absolute values for the rest of the article so as not to confuse.


Also on page 2 of the article you state.

1A. Crown-Only Painting: No reduction in performance under the table. Gradual impact occurs along the girdle. In our experience the effects are not visible until ACP of 6-7° degrees (increased greens). The extent to which they are visible depends on overall configuration & optical symmetry. *Note that this applies to “superideal” diamonds with no pavilion painting or digging.
From the stones we've been able to examine so far (with super ideals) I've been able to note the visible differences once the ACP reaches around the 5 degree mark or what Sergey describes as 'big' or 'large' on the Helium. I noted that in your study the ACP of the example stones you've used jump from 4 degrees to 6.2. I was curious to know if you've had the chance yet to see/compare one around the 5 degree mark. In any case I agree 100% ... definitely visible at 6 degrees as you state and is one reason I personally feel AGS is being a little too liberal in their grading of this feature and favor GIA's more conservative approach to this as 6 degrees still gets the Ideal grade from AGS.
We have only a small slice of the world of diamonds, so we'll not make a blanket statement, but for our purposes - and congruent with this study - we saw influence at 6-7 degrees depending on the specific diamond. Other configs may show influence with less. Still others might have room for more. We did not have such a candidate but others may. We have ACP 3.0 - 4.0 in abundance but not so many to select from beyond that. The 6.8 was a diamond we saved specifically for this study and in that case we agree with the reduction from both labs.

There is an interesting 'both labs' observation I'd like to elaborate on in a few minutes; I'd like to catch up here first.


Another thing I am personally finding ... when you compare the DiamCalc pictures of painting vs digging and the various degrees of it as compared to real world observation I'm finding that the Office Light view corellates pretty well with painting as you can see in the graphics the decrease of brightness but am not finding the same corellation with regards to digging. Ie. what we examine in real world actually appears worse than what the DC pictures are showing us as we can observe more darkness in dug out stones. Has this been your experience too?

Once again kudo's.
Brian could comment better than I can about that. I haven't compared photorealistic sims to the diamonds so much. I use DC as strictly technical and am working my way backwards from the advanced edits, ASET/IS sims etc... I think I entered through the kitchen on that count. I'll meet the rest of you fellows in the dining room for drinks as soon as I can.

Thanks for the comments Rhino.
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 9:23:14 PM
Author: strmrdr
ok article but what are the Visible Effects of Painting & Digging?

I saw the effects on IS images and Aset but little on the actual appearance of the diamonds.
Just a suggestion have Brian pretend he is talking to a customer about each stone and describing the differences in appearance without being told which is which and someone take notes.

edit: mainly beacuse static images wouldnt show the effect of painting on the apearance anyway.
The effects are noted on page 2. The observations were kept neutral, which is something our peers encouraged. Instead of saying "Bright colored flashes are present at ACD 0 but become muted and eventually invisible from ACD 3-5," we noted "Reduction in performance begins with ACD >= 3°. Girdle facets fall off in performance especially fast (severe greens)."

Your suggestion about Brian describing appearances as he would for a client is a very good one and consumer-friendly. Perhaps this is a good idea for a future video?
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 7:27:24 PM
Author: belle

there is a lot of information here to digest but i just wanted to say a huge ''thank you'' for taking the time to put this together.
Since we know you''re one of the few & the proud who will actually read the whole thing (and call us out if we mislabeled something!) we thank you kindly, Miss Belle.
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 10:06:34 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
John can you check the top contrast score on the normal stone in page 8 please?

(
36.gif
for all your work. Now I would like to see this done in steps of 0.2 degrees for pavilion and 0.5 degrees for crown angles on table sizes 50% to 63% please John. Then we can have some idea of the effects of painting and digging on diamond appearance. can you do that before lunch tomorrow?)

Really though John, you are to be congratulated.
Thank you Garry. Brian is the chef. I just garnish the salads and drizzle chocolate over the desserts around here. We both appreciate your input.

I ran the normally indexed stone again and got a similar result in DC 2.4 (attached).

NormalIndex_DC23.jpg
 

strmrdr

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Date: 9/13/2006 10:44:10 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 9/13/2006 9:23:14 PM
Author: strmrdr
ok article but what are the Visible Effects of Painting & Digging?

I saw the effects on IS images and Aset but little on the actual appearance of the diamonds.
Just a suggestion have Brian pretend he is talking to a customer about each stone and describing the differences in appearance without being told which is which and someone take notes.

edit: mainly beacuse static images wouldnt show the effect of painting on the apearance anyway.
The effects are noted on page 2. The observations were kept neutral, which is something our peers encouraged. Instead of saying ''Bright colored flashes are present at ACD 0 but become muted and eventually invisible from ACD 3-5,'' we noted ''Reduction in performance begins with ACD >= 3°. Girdle facets fall off in performance especially fast (severe greens).''

Your suggestion about Brian describing appearances as he would for a client is a very good one and consumer-friendly. Perhaps this is a good idea for a future video?
Vid would be awesome.

A better title would be the technical discussion of painting and digging and it is a very good article on that
but the title creates expectations that weren''t really filled. Just my 2c
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 9/13/2006 10:06:34 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Now I would like to see this done in steps of 0.2 degrees for pavilion and 0.5 degrees for crown angles on table sizes 50% to 63% please John. Then we can have some idea of the effects of painting and digging on diamond appearance. can you do that before lunch tomorrow?
...

aaaaah.jpg
 

diagem

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WOW, extremely impresive and profesional...

I salute you!!!
 

Rod

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Wow......I read the whole article and wanted to say thanks. I'm still not at a level to really understand all that was written, but I so appreciate the opportunity to read it!
 

JohnQuixote

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One thing I intended to mention.

An interesting difference in the GIA and AGS approach: The AGS metric is based on diamonds gathering light from above the girdle plane only. Their reasoning is so we know its potential in any setting, including closed, full-bezel etc. GIA considered different background elements in their studies (black background, white background, gray background) and eventually decided to apply gray to DD. Their reasoning is because diamonds look very different depending on dark or light backgrounds - and gray is neutral and mimics WG/Plat.

Say that to say this: We viewed the study diamonds against different backgrounds. Though the 2D photos don't adequately show fine disinctions in appearance aspects Brian and I and members of our team agreed that the diamond with ACP 6.8 looked different from white to black (brighter on white, darker against black). It is a reason we concur with how both lab would grade that particular stone.

Understanding the different ways they consider background influence was an important step in understanding how they are making their conclusions.
 

Shay37

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Brian and John, this article is filled with an extraordinary amount of info. Thank you so much for putting it together. I think I get the gist (hopefully) and reading between the lines, most of the ACAs and ES stones that are painted are painted from .5 to ACP 3-6 at the most for the new line with the classics falling between the range of .5 to 2.5 and most new lines falling from 3.5-6 at the outside for ACP; is that accurate? I''m making these assumptions based on the Idealscope images which are very recognizable. Please feel free to correct me if I misspeak.


Personally, I think that the whole painting thing is funny. When we''re talking ACA new line crown only painting, I''ve seen it next to a stone that has negligible if any painting (both superideal). Sealing the edges of the stone (how I think of painting) (no leakage) really makes them pop in low light as well as great broadfire flash for huge sparks of color. I love the affect and will not ever own a different kind of stone. People literally take note from across the room. It''s fun to watch their mouths drop open. Kudos to you and Brian for this article.


shay

 

JohnQuixote

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Hi Shay. I apologize for not seeing your questions until today.
40.gif
Fumble on my part.


Date: 9/15/2006 5:23:50 PM
Author: Shay37

Brian and John, this article is filled with an extraordinary amount of info. Thank you so much for putting it together. I think I get the gist (hopefully) and reading between the lines, most of the ACAs and ES stones that are painted are painted from .5 to ACP 3-6 at the most for the new line with the classics falling between the range of .5 to 2.5 and most new lines falling from 3.5-6 at the outside for ACP; is that accurate? I'm making these assumptions based on the Idealscope images which are very recognizable. Please feel free to correct me if I misspeak.
It may be helpful to know that, due to cutting equipment, concentrations are found near 0, 3.75 and 7.50 degrees. With regard to our specific brand: ACA Classic can be slightly over 0 degrees ACP, but not enough to greatly influence the IS image. ACA New Line have ACP <> 3.75 degrees (one physical click). Some of the diamonds we used in the study ranged outside ACA criteria to determine lab thresholds. The 6.8 degree candidate was cut some time ago and we agree with the reduction from both labs. Our interaction with AGS/GIA was motivated by a desire for enlightenment. It served to reinforce Brian's paradigms.

Personally, I think that the whole painting thing is funny. When we're talking ACA new line crown only painting, I've seen it next to a stone that has negligible if any painting (both superideal). Sealing the edges of the stone (how I think of painting) (no leakage) really makes them pop in low light as well as great broadfire flash for huge sparks of color. I love the affect and will not ever own a different kind of stone. People literally take note from across the room. It's fun to watch their mouths drop open. Kudos to you and Brian for this article.

We hear this from people, but not always so well-described. Thank you for the observations Shay. It’s always a pleasure to hear from you.

1.gif

 
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