Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Project

[kenny]

Please post your thoughts on this, pros and cons, suggestions, anything.

Colored Stones forum recently had threads about the problem of believing/trusting photographs of colored stones.
There are many reasons color in a pic you see on your monitor is not the same as the color you'd see if you held that gem in front of you.
Here are the most recent two threads:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/clear-cut-gems-experiences.196744/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/clear-cut-gems-experiences.196744/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/using-image-error-level-analyzers-to-analyze-gemstone-photos.199232/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/using-image-error-level-analyzers-to-analyze-gemstone-photos.199232/[/URL]

Someone suggested it may be informative to ship the same stone around to various vendors, who would photograph the gem using the same equipment lighting and processing they use for gems pics on their website.

Great idea, and a couple vendors have already volunteered, and Chrono, a highly knowledgeable collector of colored gems, also volunteered to show up to personally evaluate the color of the gems and comment on the pics two of the vendors.
(Chrono, please correct me if I got this wrong.)
On another thread a non-pro volunteered to take pics with her cellphone and a point and shoot.
I volunteer to take pics with my DSLR macro set up.

Ideally, I think a few gems of a few colors would be more helpful than one gem, and little more trouble.
IMO I'd like to see six gems: the three primary colors and the three secondaries: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet.
Or, what colors do you think would be best?

There would be lots of logistics to work out.
Perhaps each participant must volunteer to pay for shipping and insurance to the next participant.
You can avoid giving your real address by having the previous participant ship via FedEx or UPS HOLD FOR PICK UP at the nearest location.
I don't think the USPS offers General Delivery for pick up any more … does anyone know?

Next, I think it should be larger gems since they are easier to shoot than very tiny gems.
The gems should be affordable for obvious reasons, they may be lost or stolen … a risk the provider must consider when selecting gems to submit.

I own several low-cost colored gems I volunteer (all or some) as models, inferior though they are.
If someone has other better hues they wish to volunteer that would be preferred.

Here are my sacrificial lambs.
No they're not FCDs.
They came in a bag with a hundred other cheapos from Jewelry TV. :


For consistency IMO we should all place the gems on the same 18% gray card or cloth we would ship with the gems.
All cameras expose for 18% gray.
A white card would result in lots of dark pics because of how camera's think and decide where to place the exposure.
The gray surface would improve the chances of good exposures from everyone and a gray card will still reveal white balance variations, which could be corrected later so all gray backgrounds look identical in hue.

Next, what about buying Pantone color chart and shipping it around with the gems?
Does someone have one they can contribute (and hopefully get back)?
That way each person can 'vote' on which pantone hue the stone actually is.
Would this be prohibitively expensive or unworkable?

What are your thoughts on this project?
Would it be futile, as in herding cats?
I asked Ella and Andre to pin this thread on RT, Hangout and CS.

 

[Mico]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I thought the vendors participating would take their photos using their already established photography set up, no? I would personally like that arrangement more for consistency

 

[Sakuracherry]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Taking a picture of gemstones in from of a grey card would certainly help. We also might need to tell people about white balance, I have an old Pantone color guide set if anybody wants to use.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I thought the vendors participating would take their photos using their already established photography set up, no? I would personally like that arrangement more for consistency

Agreed. The idea behind it is not to have half a dozen of the same photos, but to see how the same gemstone(s) looks within different setups.

I also volunteered to take photographs of said stones with my "setup".

I think it's a very cool idea if it can be executed easily.

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I thought the vendors participating would take their photos using their already established photography set up, no? I would personally like that arrangement more for consistency

Yes, that would result in every vendor pic of the test gems being consistent with the pics of gems on their website.

What I've propose (shipping around one gray card that everyone would place the gems on) would result in a consistent apples to apples comparison which will reveal hue variations between participants.

Perhaps both could be considered.

I'm happy to go along with whatever the majority decides.

BTW, this is not Kenny's project.
It is the community's, so everyone please speak up.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yeah, it's a colored stone project, so I'm not sure why you put the thread in Hangout. I doubt many Colored Stone vendors really peruse Hangout all that much.

 

[Mico]

Could they maybe do both? As well as describe the color their eyes see with each stone?

Clarification:
Photo 1: vendor/consumer setup photos unchanged
Photo 2: Kenny's proposed method to even out the bias

Finally: vendors description of stones.

These could be sent to chrono or someone not participating and posted so participants wouldn't know what the other was seeing/saying

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yeah, it's a colored stone project, so I'm not sure why you put the thread in Hangout. I doubt many Colored Stone vendors really peruse Hangout all that much.

I've posted pointers in CS and RT to this thread.

I've asked Ella and Andrey to pin this in all 3 fora.

Reaching maximum eyeballs is good.

 

[Niel]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

But just because a vender were to take photos of these stones accurately who's to say they would for any other? I think this is fun and I'm sure the signed up for this with the bar intentions.

But in theory.

Could someone use this to say "see how accurate my photos are"... And use that to show how reputable they are... Yet still use the same photo editing tricks?

It shows they CAN take accurate photos. Not that they do for their stones, KWIM

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Hmmm....well, honestly, I rarely look at pinned threads, and I don't see why they'd pin it in Rocky Talky. I can tell you that it is extremely rare for Colored Stoners to wander in there. I like diamonds and I go in there maybe once a month.

 

[Mico]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

They could, but these are trusted PS vendors... So I hope not

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

But just because a vender were to take photos of these stones accurately who's to say they would for any other? I think this is fun and I'm sure the signed up for this with the bar intentions.

But in theory.

Could someone use this to say "see how accurate my photos are"... And use that to show how reputable they are... Yet still use the same photo editing tricks?

Here we go again.
Photoshop is GOOD.

It's just a tool that can be used to move a pic away from or towards the truth.
I use it for every pic because humans are smarter than cameras.

Pics right out of a camera are not any more pure or true than they are after honest photo editing.

Everyone can/may/should edit to get their pics as close to the truth as possible.
Even my new Nikon D800 with a new Nikkor micro 105mm f2.8 G VR lies like a dog when it comes to exposure.
All cameras are stupid, especially when trying to take pics of tiny challenging gems that are behave like mirrors of their environment.

Many if not all vendors edit their images.
They don't care to admit it because most here on Pricescope are poorly informed about how necessary and appropriate editing is to getting a gem image to look accurate.

Yes, Photoshop can be used by dishonest people to make a gem look better than it is, but that's not Photoshop's fault.
Photoshop is no more guilty than every other tool like a knife, telephone, or car.

 

[Niel]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yes yes Kenny Photoshop can be used for good.

But the whole thing that got this Rollin was that someone used photo editing in a way that people felt misrepresented the true color of the stone.

So I didn't say OH MY GAWD PHOTOSHOP

My point was that showing someone can take accurate photos doesn't meant they accurately portray their stones correctly all the time. And it could be easy for someone to use this experience to lull people into a false sense of trust in the vendors photography.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think the goal (and this was initially Gene Flanigan from precisiongem.com's idea) was to send the same few stones around to various gemstone vendors and for them to take pictures as though the stone was theirs to sell, and then for them to be posted in one spot to see how different a stone can look with the different set ups. Some vendors use shaded outdoor lighting (Barry Bridgestock) some use studio set ups (Gene), some use photoshop, some don't.

Photographers vary. This is a cool idea to see just how much.

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yes yes Kenny Photoshop can be used for good.

But the whole thing that got this Rollin was that someone used photo editing in a way that people felt misrepresented the true color of the stone.

So I didn't say OH MY GAWD PHOTOSHOP

My point was that showing someone can take accurate photos doesn't meant they accurately portray their stones correctly all the time. And it could be easy for someone to use this experience to lull people into believing they do.

So should we shut down this project now?

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yes yes Kenny Photoshop can be used for good.

But the whole thing that got this Rollin was that someone used photo editing in a way that people felt misrepresented the true color of the stone.

So I didn't say OH MY GAWD PHOTOSHOP

My point was that showing someone can take accurate photos doesn't meant they accurately portray their stones correctly all the time. And it could be easy for someone to use this experience to lull people into believing they do.

So should we shut down this project now?

It's not your project Kenny. It's not PS's project. It's a Colored Stone project, and it started with the vendors there. They can figure it out.

 

[Mico]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think the latitude conversation is super interesting as well, can we mention regions with each participant?

 

[Mico]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Oh god... Can't we all just play nice

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Taking a picture of gemstones in from of a grey card would certainly help. We also might need to tell people about white balance, I have an old Pantone color guide set if anybody wants to use.

Yes, of course everyone should set their camera's white balance to match the kind of light they are using.
And don't mix light sources, as in using a light but having the gem next to a bright window … unless of cours the light they are using is the same as daylight.

Even better, do a manual white balance.
Place a white sheet of paper in front of and close to the lens so it's out of focus and tell your camera to use that as the white balance reference.
Only fancier cameras can do this … and read your owner's manual for details.

This is tough, because we have a wide range of people and cameras.
Zillions of people are allergic to reading their owner's manuals.

 

[Niel]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Yes yes Kenny Photoshop can be used for good.

But the whole thing that got this Rollin was that someone used photo editing in a way that people felt misrepresented the true color of the stone.

So I didn't say OH MY GAWD PHOTOSHOP

My point was that showing someone can take accurate photos doesn't meant they accurately portray their stones correctly all the time. And it could be easy for someone to use this experience to lull people into believing they do.

So should we shut down this project now?

Oh of course I didn't say that at all.

You ask for "thoughts. Pros and cons"

That's just all I was thinking.

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Sorry Neil, Mico and FrekeChild.

I need to chill.

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think what you are doing is cool, but you need someone to volunteer something difficult to capture like a garnet that faces a nice red about half the time a deep burgundy part of the time and goes brown inside or a colour changing stone that looks different in every different lighting situation, or something that the camera really does make look totally different to what the human eye sees colour-wise.

I think a lot of vendors (particularly a lot of ebay vendors) enhance the images of their stones way off what they look like in real life..... Some of the larger respected vendors only take photos which show gems at their best, I'd rather see a mix of pics of them at their best and worse so that when the package shows up and it's 3 shades different to the eye than on my screen I don't freak out and have to send it back.

You need some tricky stones as well as ones that are easy to photograph.

 

[Niel]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I could volunteer something very hard to to capture but it's not ps approved.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Sorry Neil, Mico and FrekeChild.

I need to chill.

It's ok Kenny, I know you get excited about photographing gems - and for good reason - you do it very well. But I think that the interesting part of the project is to see how much the results can vary - even when the photographer is doing everything in their power to make the stone look as best as they can. So making people adjust how they shoot the subject is kind of ridding us of the cool part of the project - seeing how different they can look.

I hope that it comes to fruition, and I think it'd be awesome if you could participate. But I think this is mostly a vendor thing since there is such a element of trust - not so much for consumers.

 

[Mico]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

No worries!!! I just don't want this thread to turn into something it's not . I like happy places

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

Sorry Neil, Mico and FrekeChild.
I need to chill.

It's ok Kenny, I know you get excited about photographing gems -

Bingo.

I just take gem photography waaaay tooooo seriously.
It is not rational.

Hope this project happens and it gets lots of participants.
It would be unique and fascinating to see the same gems photographed by many.

Chances are, few vendors will ever know this thread exists.

 

[manderz]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think this could be a really great project, though may be hard to execute. I''d be willing to give it a go, but only have my iPhone 5 camera to contribute with. Maybe the husband's Droid DNA, if I can pry it from his clutches for a while.

Re: getting vendors to participate... Once the project is more off the ground, with a more firm idea of what the expectations and "rules" will be, why don't "we" just call them up/email them and ask them to participate? I understand the project is still in the conceptual stages, but I would think that transparency in listings is good for everyone, not just consumers, therefore it would make lots of sense for vendors to participate.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think this could be a really great project, though may be hard to execute. I''d be willing to give it a go, but only have my iPhone 5 camera to contribute with. Maybe the husband's Droid DNA, if I can pry it from his clutches for a while.

Re: getting vendors to participate... Once the project is more off the ground, with a more firm idea of what the expectations and "rules" will be, why don't "we" just call them up/email them and ask them to participate? I understand the project is still in the conceptual stages, but I would think that transparency in listings is good for everyone, not just consumers, therefore it would make lots of sense for vendors to participate.

That's the thing, it was their idea, not ours. Gene Flanigan's actually. He, Dana of mastercutgems.com and Jeff Hapeman have already talked about doing this.

 

[manderz]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I think this could be a really great project, though may be hard to execute. I''d be willing to give it a go, but only have my iPhone 5 camera to contribute with. Maybe the husband's Droid DNA, if I can pry it from his clutches for a while.

Re: getting vendors to participate... Once the project is more off the ground, with a more firm idea of what the expectations and "rules" will be, why don't "we" just call them up/email them and ask them to participate? I understand the project is still in the conceptual stages, but I would think that transparency in listings is good for everyone, not just consumers, therefore it would make lots of sense for vendors to participate.

That's the thing, it was their idea, not ours. Gene Flanigan's actually. He, Dana of mastercutgems.com and Jeff Hapeman have already talked about doing this.

Nice! I like it even more.

I did read the thread, but in my stuffy, cold medicine fogged head, it didn't register.

 

[chrono]

Re: Brainstorming Pricescope's Photography Comparison Projec

I am willing to shoulder the cost of shipping and insurance of the gems to whoever is supposed to receive it next. Gene might still have my home address from past transactions. As for a volunteer stone, let me see what I'm willing to risk.