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bowtie oval

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ovalguy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
7

I recently gave my fiance an oval engagement ring with a micorpave a setting. I''m a little confused, becuase in the normal daylight the stone looks really pretty and it has a very mininal bowtie, that isn''t even really black, just kind of a greyish looking line going across the width of the diameter, through the center. But at night time or in limited light at certain angles the grey line turns black. I''m thinking it is just becuase of the abesence of light, but i am not really sure. I am wondering if there is something internally wrong with the diamond. I have never really heard of one doing this? the dimensions are below. I did a lot of research and the only thing really wrong in my opinion is the girddle, but no diamond is perfect. The inclusion are off to the side and when i got a second appraisial, i was told it could really pass for almost a vs2, so i don''t think it is the probelm.



color e
clarity s1
10.07 x 6.79x 4.23
total depth 62.3
table 55.7
crown height 15.5
l/w 1.48
polish and sym are both good
girddle -medium to extremely thick

any ideas???



thanks...


 

ladykemma

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,194
the stone reflects back what you are wearing or the color of the room. if i wear a black shirt, my pear has a "sort of" black bowtie. it sounds normal. can you post a pic?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,975
Bowtie is not from inclusions.
It is from cut.

Is it too late to return the stone?


(Why do people come here *after* they have bought a stone?)
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,321
you might hold the stone closer to your head at night.
 

ovalguy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
7
so how come in normal light you really dont see a bowtie or black line, but only in limited or night time do you see it?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
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Messages
14,583
A bow tie is (the nail head) effect of seeing your own head blocking light (or typically the camera lens.

Poke a hole in a sheet of copy paper and peek thru - walla! no more bowtie.
Shine a bright light on your face and have a darkened room behind you and the bow tie is white

There are some types of oval cuts used for making colored diamonds look more intense that do not have bow ties, but in general - most well cut ovals will have some amount of bow tie - otherwise regular sprkly traditional ovals are generally too shalloow and suffer dreadfully from dirt
 

ovalguy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
7
just wanted to thank everyone for there help. From looking at the pictures would you say that it is a normal bowtie, or a bigger more pronouced one?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,583
Date: 11/20/2006 12:57:48 AM
Author: ovalguy
is this something that i should be really concerned about?
Yes - if it worries you - and no if you understand what is is when you see it

- but to make any assessment from this side of the screen - we need loads more info.

Can you get an ideal-scope image, or ASET image?
They have by design a constant darkness (or blueness) parameter built in.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 11/20/2006 12:28:40 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
it depends on the camera lens size and distance from the ring
the SIZE of the bowtie is dependent upon the SIZE of the facets... those same facets that can give a dark appearance and which we are TOLD to not like - are also the same facets that give off the biggest brightest flashes of fire in sunlight... as well as draw colors from around the room. Some people hate bowties and other really don''t care. I have a love/hate with my "cumberbund" effect. In some light it is my *favorite* quality of my diamond and in others it''s a bit disturbing (but mostly because I''ve been told I *shouldn''t* like it - not because it''s actually *ugly*) so if you love it - then love it!! I disagree with garry that it''s always the light blocked by your head.... what it is is dark colors being reflected on those large facets - sometimes it is a dark reflection of your head, but sometimes it''s a yellow reflection from the wall or a red reflection from a shirt, or whatever. Then again I could be totally wrong, I don''t own an oval, but I have a similar effect on my ring.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,583
C when we look at a diamond we can see

1. a bright lash area (of different intensities) (this can be glare of the surface or better still - refracted sizzel)
2. a firey flash area (of different intensities)
3. a neutral blah area
4. a darker area

The darker area is as you say usually a reflection of something in the room that is not real bright - and because other sizzelling parts are overexposing our eyes - the not so bright bits can look dark. These dark spots - if they are coming from really (relatively) dark places - can provide great contrast to mkake the sizzels appear even brighter.

Dark spots can also be, but usually are not, a leakage area. leakage areas are usually just plain blah.

But one constant - is you (or moi) the observer. Most often you are looking down and the light is shining from above - so you are a relative dull spot (not you though C - you are as bright as a button). Therefore you do make dark zones.

Check out with a sheet of copy paper - poke a 1/2 inch peep hole in with a pen or sumthing, and walk about and look at your diamonds in all different places - then slide the paper in and out - take some photo''s etc - you will be blown away at how much darkness you provide.
 

SKR

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
199
I looked at a few ovals before picking one. I don''t think you can get away from bowtie in this shape - well not without other drawbacks. This doesnt hold up in every case and I expect there to be a lot more contributing factors, but generally -

1. The longer the L/W ratio the more apparent the bowtie.
2. Shallow stones tend to have less apparent bowtie and I saw two with depths lower than 53% but above 51% which were free of the centre bowtie. One of these stones however showed a bowtie effect around the ends rather than the middle which was a little strange!! However these stones also looked a little lifeless (lacking fire / brilliance whatever you want to call it). I also saw a pear with a depth of 48% with zero bowtie.
3. I was told that a lower table % also helps but from what I saw this doesnt hold true.
4. I also heard that a deeper stone helps to reduce bowtie but I didnt bother looking at any deep stones because of the huge negative impact on face up size.

My experience is limited but my two cents is above !!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,583
Date: 11/20/2006 5:27:18 AM
Author: SKR

I looked at a few ovals before picking one. I don''t think you can get away from bowtie in this shape - well not without other drawbacks. This doesnt hold up in every case and I expect there to be a lot more contributing factors, but generally -

1. The longer the L/W ratio the more apparent the bowtie. true
2. Shallow stones tend to have less apparent bowtie true and I saw two with depths lower than 53% but above 51% which were free of the centre bowtie. One of these stones however showed a bowtie effect around the ends rather than the middle which was a little strange!! this is the same as the darkness a very very shallow round brilliant gets - it is also from observer obscuration of lighting However these stones also looked a little lifeless (lacking fire / brilliance whatever you want to call it yes - lacking contrast and scintillation - the shallow ends are dead as a dodo). I also saw a pear with a depth of 48% with zero bowtie.
3. I was told that a lower table % also helps but from what I saw this doesnt hold true. you have a good eye. Table % is the least critical parameter - many table sizes can work, but an optimum table size can never make up for bad crown and pav angles
4. I also heard that a deeper stone helps to reduce bowtie that is rubbish - someone gave you bad advice there but I didnt bother looking at any deep stones because of the huge negative impact on face up size.

My experience is limited but my two cents is above !! you learned a lot SKR
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 11/20/2006 2:40:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
C when we look at a diamond we can see

1. a bright lash area (of different intensities) (this can be glare of the surface or better still - refracted sizzel)
2. a firey flash area (of different intensities)
3. a neutral blah area
4. a darker area

The darker area is as you say usually a reflection of something in the room that is not real bright - and because other sizzelling parts are overexposing our eyes - the not so bright bits can look dark. These dark spots - if they are coming from really (relatively) dark places - can provide great contrast to mkake the sizzels appear even brighter.

Dark spots can also be, but usually are not, a leakage area. leakage areas are usually just plain blah.

But one constant - is you (or moi) the observer. Most often you are looking down and the light is shining from above - so you are a relative dull spot (not you though C - you are as bright as a button). Therefore you do make dark zones.

Check out with a sheet of copy paper - poke a 1/2 inch peep hole in with a pen or sumthing, and walk about and look at your diamonds in all different places - then slide the paper in and out - take some photo''s etc - you will be blown away at how much darkness you provide.
Okay garry - I did it and you''re right.... but I am very fair and a natural blonde so holding a white sheet up to my face didn''t do a WHOLE lot ;-) haha I guess I am bright as a button, though all of my buttons are flat and dull so I''ll just assume you have shinny ones LOL Another thing, I could almost see where I think an idealscope would react favorably - there were areas that really got bright white (moreso even than in the cumberbund area). Very cool - I was surprised!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,583
Date: 11/20/2006 11:26:38 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
Okay garry - I did it and you''re right.... but I am very fair and a natural blonde so holding a white sheet up to my face didn''t do a WHOLE lot ;-) haha I guess I am bright as a button, though all of my buttons are flat and dull so I''ll just assume you have shinny ones LOL Another thing, I could almost see where I think an idealscope would react favorably - there were areas that really got bright white (moreso even than in the cumberbund area). Very cool - I was surprised!
Cehrabehra you are my star student.
Hold your hand out for an elephant stamp please. (did they do stars and elephants etc at your primsry schools in the States? Elephants were the beez nees)
 

Siamese Kitty

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
826
Date: 11/20/2006 2:05:01 AM
Author: Cehrabehra


Date: 11/20/2006 12:28:40 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
it depends on the camera lens size and distance from the ring
the SIZE of the bowtie is dependent upon the SIZE of the facets... those same facets that can give a dark appearance and which we are TOLD to not like - are also the same facets that give off the biggest brightest flashes of fire in sunlight... as well as draw colors from around the room. Some people hate bowties and other really don''t care. I have a love/hate with my ''cumberbund'' effect. In some light it is my *favorite* quality of my diamond and in others it''s a bit disturbing (but mostly because I''ve been told I *shouldn''t* like it - not because it''s actually *ugly*) so if you love it - then love it!! I disagree with garry that it''s always the light blocked by your head.... what it is is dark colors being reflected on those large facets - sometimes it is a dark reflection of your head, but sometimes it''s a yellow reflection from the wall or a red reflection from a shirt, or whatever. Then again I could be totally wrong, I don''t own an oval, but I have a similar effect on my ring.
LOL- I just wrote something similar on Flower''s pear thread. I have a decent sized bowtie in my pear, and like Cehra says, it definitely blazes in the sunlight! I really stressed over it when I first got it, but have actually really grown to love that my stone has such a "personality". Could you please post some more pics of your beautiful ring?
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 11/20/2006 3:14:14 PM
Author: Siamese Kitty

Date: 11/20/2006 2:05:01 AM
Author: Cehrabehra



Date: 11/20/2006 12:28:40 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
it depends on the camera lens size and distance from the ring
the SIZE of the bowtie is dependent upon the SIZE of the facets... those same facets that can give a dark appearance and which we are TOLD to not like - are also the same facets that give off the biggest brightest flashes of fire in sunlight... as well as draw colors from around the room. Some people hate bowties and other really don''t care. I have a love/hate with my ''cumberbund'' effect. In some light it is my *favorite* quality of my diamond and in others it''s a bit disturbing (but mostly because I''ve been told I *shouldn''t* like it - not because it''s actually *ugly*) so if you love it - then love it!! I disagree with garry that it''s always the light blocked by your head.... what it is is dark colors being reflected on those large facets - sometimes it is a dark reflection of your head, but sometimes it''s a yellow reflection from the wall or a red reflection from a shirt, or whatever. Then again I could be totally wrong, I don''t own an oval, but I have a similar effect on my ring.
LOL- I just wrote something similar on Flower''s pear thread. I have a decent sized bowtie in my pear, and like Cehra says, it definitely blazes in the sunlight! I really stressed over it when I first got it, but have actually really grown to love that my stone has such a ''personality''. Could you please post some more pics of your beautiful ring?
actually I have some new ones - I have been trying to get the "cross" because it is fairly elusive in my long stone - the cumberbund is much easier! But I have some photos that are totally germaine to this discussion...

this isn''t the most obvious example of my cumberbund (on an oval - a bow tie) but you can see it without doubt...

cbOMC136.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Here is the next photo in the session - same location, same light, just tilted... and I have no idea where this color came from... my ceiling is white, my walls are green, my shirt was very light apricot... but somewhere in that room was something it grabbed - is that bad? I don''t think so!

cbOMC137.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
turn the ring just *slightly* more and voila - refraction! That blue is not a reflection like the salmons were - it is a refraction... am I upset about the cumberbund? Not really!!

ETA: doesn't it look like it is sticking out its tongue at me?? haha

cbOMC138.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
this pic is blurry but it shows the *opposite* of bow tie or cumberbund - the band in the middle is doing magic and the rest of the diamond is quiet....

cbOMC139.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
to sum it up:

bright facets.........

cbOMC140.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
.... dark facets....

cbOMC134.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
... electric refracting facets....

cbOMC133.jpg
 

Siamese Kitty

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
826
Date: 11/20/2006 4:32:14 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 11/20/2006 3:14:14 PM
Author: Siamese Kitty


Date: 11/20/2006 2:05:01 AM
Author: Cehrabehra




Date: 11/20/2006 12:28:40 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
it depends on the camera lens size and distance from the ring
the SIZE of the bowtie is dependent upon the SIZE of the facets... those same facets that can give a dark appearance and which we are TOLD to not like - are also the same facets that give off the biggest brightest flashes of fire in sunlight... as well as draw colors from around the room. Some people hate bowties and other really don''t care. I have a love/hate with my ''cumberbund'' effect. In some light it is my *favorite* quality of my diamond and in others it''s a bit disturbing (but mostly because I''ve been told I *shouldn''t* like it - not because it''s actually *ugly*) so if you love it - then love it!! I disagree with garry that it''s always the light blocked by your head.... what it is is dark colors being reflected on those large facets - sometimes it is a dark reflection of your head, but sometimes it''s a yellow reflection from the wall or a red reflection from a shirt, or whatever. Then again I could be totally wrong, I don''t own an oval, but I have a similar effect on my ring.
LOL- I just wrote something similar on Flower''s pear thread. I have a decent sized bowtie in my pear, and like Cehra says, it definitely blazes in the sunlight! I really stressed over it when I first got it, but have actually really grown to love that my stone has such a ''personality''. Could you please post some more pics of your beautiful ring?
actually I have some new ones - I have been trying to get the ''cross'' because it is fairly elusive in my long stone - the cumberbund is much easier! But I have some photos that are totally germaine to this discussion...

this isn''t the most obvious example of my cumberbund (on an oval - a bow tie) but you can see it without doubt...
Cehra-your new pics are great-such a beautiful stone, you lucky girl! You know, I think I''m going to start a "show me your bowtie" thread.:) I think it would be useful for those considering fancies.
 
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