Bow tie on smaller stones an issue?

[blahhhhh]

Should I be worried about bow tie effect on stones that at around 0.3ct?

Thanks!

 

[WinkHPD]

How big and how dark?

If a bow tine is just a thin shadow of less sparkle, not much to worry about. If a bow tie is thick and dark, it is unsightly, no matter how small the stone it is in.

I am reminded of an incident back before the days of the Internet.

I had brought in four oval diamonds, starting at about 1.25 and the largest was in the 2 carat range. I was very proud of the cut quality of the four gems, as none of them had a bow tie to speak of. Yes, there was an area of less brilliance across the center of the diamonds but no darkness. It took me many phone calls, with people I trusted, to find them.

My client came in to see the diamonds, took one look and told me how disappointed she was.

"Why?" I stammered.

"Not one of them has a decent bow tie, I expected better of you."

She went on to tell me she had been at XYZ jewelers across town and they had shown her some really nice ovals with magnificent bow ties and told her how hard it was to get diamonds with bow ties like the ones they had.

I went to my bookshelf and grabbed the phone book (Hey, I said this was before the Internet, phone books were a big deal back then...) and said she should look up any three jewelers in the yellow pages and call and ask about whether a bow tie in an oval is a good thing or a bad thing.

She got all huffy and charged out the door.

Two days later I had the diamonds packaged and was getting ready to take them to the post office when my former client knocked on the door and asked if we could talk. She went on to tell me that she had been furious at my attitude instead of apologizing for trying to pass off inferior goods to her, but I seemed so confident that she decided to see if I was an honest man or a charlatan.

The salesperson at the first store just laughed at her, the one at the second store laughed and said something along the lines of, "You must have talked with the crooks at XYZ store." The third store she went to was Hal Davis Jewelers in Boise. Hal ran a great store, very high quality, and he trained his staff well. They spent the time to properly explain what a bow tie was and why it was a cutting defect. They offered to bring in some ovals for her, but she said she needed to come apologize to me and buy one of the very nice gems I had brought in for her.

I took the small registered mail box out of my desk drawer and opened it up, she bought one of the diamonds and told me she had seen a mounting she really loved while she was at Hal's. I told her they were great people and she had the ring mounted there. Hal has long since retired, but it is still a great store with good people.

And that is my bow tie story. I have not thought of it in years, so I am glad you asked your question.

Wink

 

[alittlelight]

@Wink , that is one of the best stories about ovals I have ever heard!

 

[blahhhhh]

love hearing stories @Wink , thank you for taking the time to type it all out!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

How big and how dark?

If a bow tine is just a thin shadow of less sparkle, not much to worry about. If a bow tie is thick and dark, it is unsightly, no matter how small the stone it is in.

I am reminded of an incident back before the days of the Internet.

I had brought in four oval diamonds, starting at about 1.25 and the largest was in the 2 carat range. I was very proud of the cut quality of the four gems, as none of them had a bow tie to speak of. Yes, there was an area of less brilliance across the center of the diamonds but no darkness. It took me many phone calls, with people I trusted, to find them.

My client came in to see the diamonds, took one look and told me how disappointed she was.

"Why?" I stammered.

"Not one of them has a decent bow tie, I expected better of you."

She went on to tell me she had been at XYZ jewelers across town and they had shown her some really nice ovals with magnificent bow ties and told her how hard it was to get diamonds with bow ties like the ones they had.

I went to my bookshelf and grabbed the phone book (Hey, I said this was before the Internet, phone books were a big deal back then...) and said she should look up any three jewelers in the yellow pages and call and ask about whether a bow tie in an oval is a good thing or a bad thing.

She got all huffy and charged out the door.

Two days later I had the diamonds packaged and was getting ready to take them to the post office when my former client knocked on the door and asked if we could talk. She went on to tell me that she had been furious at my attitude instead of apologizing for trying to pass off inferior goods to her, but I seemed so confident that she decided to see if I was an honest man or a charlatan.

The salesperson at the first store just laughed at her, the one at the second store laughed and said something along the lines of, "You must have talked with the crooks at XYZ store." The third store she went to was Hal Davis Jewelers in Boise. Hal ran a great store, very high quality, and he trained his staff well. They spent the time to properly explain what a bow tie was and why it was a cutting defect. They offered to bring in some ovals for her, but she said she needed to come apologize to me and buy one of the very nice gems I had brought in for her.

I took the small registered mail box out of my desk drawer and opened it up, she bought one of the diamonds and told me she had seen a mounting she really loved while she was at Hal's. I told her they were great people and she had the ring mounted there. Hal has long since retired, but it is still a great store with good people.

And that is my bow tie story. I have not thought of it in years, so I am glad you asked your question.

Wink

Great story Wink - can you remember back then what the reason gemologically speaking caused a bow tie?

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks @Garry H (Cut Nut). If my memory serves correctly, (never a good bet with memories from the early 80's) I believe it was that the cutters were cutting for more weight, making the girdles too thick and blah blah blah. The image of the deep round cut diamond with the light ray escaping out the pavilion comes to mind. I believe that most of us believed that it was caused by too much light leakage in the bow tie area.

Many years ago I was attending the Cut Band Camp held by Peter Yantzer at his house for a day prior to the opening of the JCK show in Vegas. Peter asked me to pick up Michael Cowing at the airport which I was happy to do.

Michael got into this very topic with me and made it very clear that the diagram was incorrect and that the dark was caused by obstruction as earlier work did not properly take into account the head shadow we humans cause by the mere act of looking at a diamond.

I had recently attended a course at AGS about the ASET tool, and was aware of this, but the conversation with Michael was fun and fascinating. Peter and some of the others at the Cut Band Camp had been involved with the development of the AGS cut grade system, and I spent many hours listening to brilliant people discussing topics that most Pricescopers now take for granted that are still a mystery to the majority of diamond sales people in bricks and mortar stores.

Those were rich and heady days of change, and as you remember, there were months and months of cut wars on Pricescope.

Am I remembering correctly that you were one of the attendees at the Cut Band Camp? I know for many years I only knew you from the times we spent together at Vegas.

Are my memories of why the bow tie consistent with yours, or did you upside downers have a different theory?

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes Wink - you are right on the money.
Infact it was not until the mid 1990s or there-abouts that GIA stopped teaching that leakage caused bow ties.
I wonder if anyone has their old notes?
When I first saw that I could not believe how many people they had misinformed and I can not remember when I got it - but likely shortly after getting my Firescope in 1984/85.

 

[WinkHPD]

And, as a curiosity, what percentage of actual jewelers in Oz would you guess actually understand that today?

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

And, as a curiosity, what percentage of actual jewelers in Oz would you guess actually understand that today?

Wink

A lot who attend education stuff. I have taught loads with the hole in a sheet of paper. Did that trick with a very clever client 3 hours ago

 

[WinkHPD]

Nicely avoiding the question.

Maybe you are more successful in Oz. I have no hard numbers, but I am very confident that the regulars on PriceScope know more about cut quality than most jewelers.

I would have thought by now that all real jewelers would have ASET devices in their stores so they could share the amazing joy of seeing where the light comes from and how being able to quickly show their clients why some diamonds are amazing, and others are drek.

Several years after the development of the ASET and the education about it offered by AGS, as well as the sale of the device, I had the occasion to speak with Jim Caudill at AGS about how well it was being used by jewelers in the market.

He said he was very disappointed by how few Jewelers were understanding the ASET, let alone using it. This was perhaps five years after it was introduced, and Jim shocked me by saying as far as he knew, I was still the only jeweler in Idaho who had one.

When I had a bricks and mortar store, I used it with nearly every diamond client who would sit down with me. I would show them a loser diamond that looked good when I turned on my overhead sparkly lights. I would have them hold it in the shadow of their hand, or ask them to hold it under the shadow of their heads and watch it go lifeless. Then I would show them the diamond in my desktop ASET.

Then I would show them a properly cut diamond, one that did not go lifeless in the shadows, and when I put it in the ASET I would get ooohs and ahhhs. "It's like a kaleidoscope," was a common reply.

How on earth can the professionals of my trade not care about learning about cut quality?

Sorry, it is a bit of a sore spot with me. We wonder why people buy the steep deep GIA excellents that are so poorly performing?

I think it is because the people selling them in the stores simply do not know how poorly they perform, since they simply do not take the time to learn.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think these days customers mostly learn online about bowties and know to avoid them Wink,so sales staff are learning from customers.
Do they know what causes it - 99% no.

Does anyone have old GIA notes referring to leakage as the cause?