Blue Nile lost my diamond! Your opinions on this one?

[MaximusCruiser]

Maximus, I think that maybe you need a greater variety of opinions about that crown angle in order to assist your decision, assuming the 1.67 is eyeclean.

I'm not disputing what Blackprophet said, but I'm unclear if this is a personal opinion/preference or if it's pretty much a fact that one should never buy a diamond with a 32.5 crown angle. I guess it depends on the other angles in the mix.

You could start a separate thread asking cut nuts' opinions solely about the 1.67's numbers and HCA score. If everyone thinks it's too shallow, maybe avoid it, but if not then you might have a firecracker on your hands. It would be great to get a range of opinions about that stone. It might not be the best choice...or on the other hand you might get a great spread and great sparkle.

I was thinking this very thing. Or maybe I or Smith could start it and you just lurk, so people don't think your overwhelming the board with threads.

Smith1942 it is just my opinion. Its based on the infor I've gained in my (admittedly short) time here. Maximus has gotta make the final call.

Its ok... I will lurk! haha.

It is my problem and my responsibility. Thanks.

 

[blackprophet]

We were posting at the same time, Blackprophet!

I agree that the angle on its own looks shallow, but isn't it about how it plays with the other angles? I'm thinking that if it was a badly cut diamond with affected sparkle, it wouldn't have scored under 2?

Seems like we've been doing that alot!

Not all diamonds <2 are good. HCA<2 just means "greater chance of being good than diamonds >2".

Some diamonds >2 are still great. A lot of AGS000 diamonds when you put them in the HCA they come in in the 2-4 range. Seen that quite often actually.

 

[Smith1942]

I found this interesting article about shallower crown angles. The bolding isn't mine.

http://www.uniteddiamonds.com/info_pages/diamond_education/diamond-education-round-crownangle.html

 

[MaximusCruiser]

I found this interesting article about shallower crown angles. The bolding isn't mine.

http://www.uniteddiamonds.com/info_pages/diamond_education/diamond-education-round-crownangle.html

Very interesting! Thank you!!

 

[MaximusCruiser]

If it doesn't comeback eye clean, you might want to ask if the inclusions can be covered by a prong., I forget what setting you are gettting, but that is another option.

Btw... my chosen setting is a vintage looking 4-prong Hand Engraved Solitaire Engagement Ring, as shown in my avatar. FYI.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

This is an extract I fold in an online article about inclusions that seems to give another advantage to the 1.60 (no crystals) over the 1.67. Fyi.

Inclusions will almost never affect the brilliance of a diamond unless the grade is I2 and lower. Think of an inclusion as a spot of dirt on your window - the room gets plenty of light, but there is an annoying spot on the glass. In general, clouds, needles, pinpoints, twinning wisps and even feathers are better inclusions than crystals when it comes to eye clean because they will usually not have any black attributes, what tends to be most visible to the naked eye.

 

[lovebug1031]

If it doesn't comeback eye clean, you might want to ask if the inclusions can be covered by a prong., I forget what setting you are gettting, but that is another option.

Btw... my chosen setting is a vintage looking 4-prong Hand Engraved Solitaire Engagement Ring, as shown in my avatar. FYI.

i know this has been discussed, and you're sticking with BN, which is fine! But FWIW i think an AVR or AVC would looks stunning in that setting! Just throwing that out there...

 

[Christina...]

My ears were ringing, But my flower garden is wilting from days of hot sun so I need to run and water them but I promise to return with an opinion about the crown angle and its likely impact to this stone.

 

[marymm]

As for my criteria... well.... they are pretty numerous...it will go something like this, in order of importance:

Cut: Excellent
HCA score of under 2
Carat: 1.5 or higher
Dimensions: around 7.4mm radius (thin to medium girdle)
Fluorescence: Faint to Very Strong (I want it! Just not the hazy look)
Color: G to I
Clarity: VS2 to SI2 (would not have considered SI2, unless it was really eye clean like my original diamond)
Table size: 52.4-57.5%

My original diamond met all of the above criteria (1.51ct H-color SI2 (eye clean) HCA 1.9, 7.405mm, medium girdle, VSBF with no hazy effect) and was priced at about 8.5k. Don't need any discount... this price was hard to beat cause it has all the qualities that I love (e.g. VSBF), but not necessarily loved by others! Which is why it hurts so much!!

OP - did you look at this 1.50ct H-SI2 diamond, with Excellent Symmetry & Polish and Very Strong Blue Fluor ($8,815)? It mostly fits your criteria except the girdle is medium-to-slightly-thick, and the table at 58% is just over your 57.5% outside preference - but the 35 degree crown angle and 15.0% height should help offset the slightly larger table... It has a 1.8 total HCA score, with Very Good for Light Return and for Spread, and Excellent for Fire and for Scintillation - and is just outside the AGS 0 box. The AGA/NAJA cut grade score is 1A total. http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-...r=BYOR&forceStep=DIAMONDS_STEP&pid=LD01818354 The main inclusions are twinning wisps and a few feathers, and under Comments it lists additional inclusions not shown... definitely must ask if this is eyeclean, and whether the fluor plus the inclusions makes for a hazy stone or not, but it may be a good candidate to follow-up on anyway.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

As for my criteria... well.... they are pretty numerous...it will go something like this, in order of importance:

Cut: Excellent
HCA score of under 2
Carat: 1.5 or higher
Dimensions: around 7.4mm radius (thin to medium girdle)
Fluorescence: Faint to Very Strong (I want it! Just not the hazy look)
Color: G to I
Clarity: VS2 to SI2 (would not have considered SI2, unless it was really eye clean like my original diamond)
Table size: 52.4-57.5%

My original diamond met all of the above criteria (1.51ct H-color SI2 (eye clean) HCA 1.9, 7.405mm, medium girdle, VSBF with no hazy effect) and was priced at about 8.5k. Don't need any discount... this price was hard to beat cause it has all the qualities that I love (e.g. VSBF), but not necessarily loved by others! Which is why it hurts so much!!

OP - did you look at this 1.50ct H-SI2 diamond, with Excellent Symmetry & Polish and Very Strong Blue Fluor ($8,815)? It mostly fits your criteria except the girdle is medium-to-slightly-thick, and the table at 58% is just over your 57.5% outside preference - but the 35 degree crown angle and 15.0% height should help offset the slightly larger table... It has a 1.8 total HCA score, with Very Good for Light Return and for Spread, and Excellent for Fire and for Scintillation - and is just outside the AGS 0 box. The AGA/NAJA cut grade score is 1A total. http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-...r=BYOR&forceStep=DIAMONDS_STEP&pid=LD01818354 The main inclusions are twinning wisps and a few feathers, and under Comments it lists additional inclusions not shown... definitely must ask if this is eyeclean, and whether the fluor plus the inclusions makes for a hazy stone or not, but it may be a good candidate to follow-up on anyway.

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes... I did look at this diamond. It was ruled out for two main issues... inclusions are at the center of the table and the dimensions is only 7.3mm. These two issues, while alright on its own, just reminds me of what my original diamond has to offer. So if I settled for this... I will feel sore over the fact that BN lost my original diamond and I have to make do with something less. I am trying my best to avoid that... searching for trade offs on my original criteria than a clear compromise.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

1) The 1.53 H SI2 diamond they wanted me to consider is eye clean
2) The 1.54 I SI1 diamond (with strong white fluorescence) is eye clean with no negative effect from fluorescence and internal graining. The gemologist added that it is a beautiful stone.
3) The 1.6 I SI2 diamond is eye clean (BN says they usually go with the chart rather than the laser inscription, so cutter must have tried to save cost)
4) The l.67 I SI2 diamond ... still waiting for update from gemologist inspection

Ok... here is an update from BN on the four diamonds. All four diamonds are eye clean and they have requested checks several times to make sure.

As for prices, for (1), (2) and (4), they can match the price of my original diamond.

For the 1.6... they are offering it to me at $95 more. They keep telling me that laser inscription is a cheaper solution for security and can be fake. The better security feature is the plot map on the GIA cert. They added that most diamonds above 1 carat do not have laser inscription. This is contrary to what I have seen so far... most of the diamonds I saw have both the plot chart and the inscription. It is difficult for a lay person like myself to distinguish the diamond without it, I think. In any case, they told me that it will cost $150 to laser inscribe the GIA number and $250 for the inscription to come with an updated GIA report, and will take 2-3 weeks... time that I cannot afford. So if I do choose this diamond, I have to make peace with a diamond without laser inscription.. which is a bummer!

 

[Christina...]

I just composed a really long reply and then.....crash dump! Working on a new one...if I can't do it tonight I'll finish it in the morning.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

I just composed a really long reply and then.....crash dump! Working on a new one...if I can't do it tonight I'll finish it in the morning.

Oh gosh! So sorry... I feel your pain!

Thanks for trying. Appreciate any advise or comments you can provide, Christina.

 

[Christina...]

Ok, I'd like to respond to a number of things so I'll take them one at a time...

1-I appreciate my diamonds to have both a clarity plot and a stone inscription, however, I agree with BN that an inscription isn't really an effective security measure. GIA and some jewelers will inscribe a stones girdle for a cost and they will inscribe anything you ask them too. It's been a pet peeve of mine that HA is inscribed on the girdles of some stones that are obviously not true HA stones, but it leads a less educated consumer to believe that is indeed a HA stone....or GIA wouldn't inscribe it right? It appears that more and more stones over 1ct are being inscribed but I think it's wiser to learn how to use a loupe to identify that natural characteristics of your stone.

2- It's impossible to judge eye cleanliness based on a clarity plot. I've seen plots that look horrible and have been eye clean and plots that have looked amazing but have not been clean to the naked eye. It's also important to look for additional information about the stones clarity noted on the GIA report, sometimes you will see a note stating that 'clarity based on clouds not shown' or 'surface graining not shown'. These are important to consider because it cause an otherwise clean looking stone to have transparency issues, especially at the SI2 range.

3- As blackprophet already stated, HCA is an elimination tool, it wasn't designed to be a selection tool. There are many things that the HCA can not take into consideration at this time and they can impact the stones performance. I would strongly recommend that you read this article before deciding to rely solely on HCA predictions alone.

http://www.diamond-cut.com.au/22_flawed.htm

While I agree with Smith1942 that HCA does it's job well and I suspect more than a few people have used it for purposes that it wasn't intended for with satisfactory result, it does not and CAN NOT replicate or replace the information provided by actual images of the stone or ideal scope and ASET images. Purchasing based on HCA results alone is a gamble.

4-I personally find value in the additional information provided by many online vendors. For me it minimizes risk and all but ensures that I am purchasing a stone that will perform well. GIA's EX cut grade is very broad, too broad in many expert opinions, they also average and then round their proportions, making it more difficult to shop based on the report alone. This is one reason that I personally would not purchase a GIA stone without an Ideal scope or ASET or at the very least actual images of the stone. I've never seen a GIA EX stone that was a complete dog, but if a person has a discerning eye and is looking to purchase the best cut stone possible....GIA EX alone won't cut it in my book. Based on what I've read, you have a very strict criteria for your stone selection, but I'm worried that you may be focusing on areas that are less important optically than others...it would be much easier to demonstrate this to you if you had access to these images.

5-I stand by the quote that Smith1942 posted....optical symmetry and light performance and two different things, and I believe that it is near impossible to distinguish between a HA stone and a near HA stone, however a GIA EX cut does not imply HA or near HA so the argument is irrelevant in this case. That said, I don't personally see anything about this stone based on the information provided that makes it not worth taking a look at. It definitely isn't a stone that I would consider for myself, nor is it one that I think many PSer would consider, it's not what most of us would consider a traditional ideal cut, BUT, beauty is in they eye of the beholder and diamonds come in many different flavors and this one might appeal to YOU. Again I would NOT purchase this stone without seeing additional images but I understand that you are determined to purchase through this vendor and I can appreciate that. I would mention though that the face up size that you find appealing comes at some risk....the girdle is thin and poses additional risks for chipping and cracking, this risk increases depending on how you plan to set the stone. I would certainly recommend that you insure it. As far as how the shallow crown angle will impact the stones performance...I think that you will see a majority of white light return as opposed to colored light return or a nice balance of the two. Some people prefer white light so if you are one of these people then this might be right up your ally, but if you like a display of color or a balance of color and white light return, then you may be disappointed. Just something to consider.

6-As Smith1942 mentioned, BN has a good return policy so you will have time to play with the stone, take a good look at it in many different lightening environments, in direct sunlight, in the shade, office lighting, in your home, look for edge to edge brightness with no dead or lazy facets. Be sure that it appeals to YOU...there are certainly many many others out there if you find that this isn't the one. I don't believe that BN offers free return shipping so if you don't like the stone be prepared to foot the cost of returning it. If time is a consideration you may want to consider more traditionally ideal proportions to eliminate any risk of not liking the 'flavor' of the stone, or be prepared to propose with this stone and returning after the proposal for a different one....be aware though.....we don't like being separated from our rings so soon after the proposal!! Good luck to you!!

 

[Christina...]

FYI, based on the information provided alone, I'd be interested in the 1.6!

 

[MaximusCruiser]

6-As Smith1942 mentioned, BN has a good return policy so you will have time to play with the stone, take a good look at it in many different lightening environments, in direct sunlight, in the shade, office lighting, in your home, look for edge to edge brightness with no dead or lazy facets. Be sure that it appeals to YOU...there are certainly many many others out there if you find that this isn't the one. I don't believe that BN offers free return shipping so if you don't like the stone be prepared to foot the cost of returning it. If time is a consideration you may want to consider more traditionally ideal proportions to eliminate any risk of not liking the 'flavor' of the stone, or be prepared to propose with this stone and returning after the proposal for a different one....be aware though.....we don't like being separated from our rings so soon after the proposal!! Good luck to you!!

Wow... thank you very much, Christina! Really appreciate the advise.

Yes... this last point on time is something I really need to factor in... and the 1.6 will be considered a much safer option given the circumstances and available selections.

 

[Christina...]

Just one more thing to consider...the visual size difference between these stones is less than two sheets of plain copy paper. That might help but it into a bit of perspective...will it be visually noticeable...it might, but is it significant? The 1.6 is also still larger than your initial selection right? So, at the price point, still a bonus! Good luck!

 

[MaximusCruiser]

Could not find anything better within budget over the last three days. Very tiring process considering the stress I have to go through in the past week.

Decided to order the 1.6 I-color SI2 in the next 24 hours. I have sent in another request to BN to inspect and make sure the twinning wisps on the diamond is not dark in color (though I know it is rarely so), just to make sure. Given my time constraints, this is the safest diamond to get and very unlikely that I would need to return it.

http://www.bluenile.com/sg/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-i-colour-si2-clarity_LD03230549

I will miss the strong fluorescence though... supposed to be a fun feature to amuse my gf and myself.... I even bought a UV torchlight in anticipation. Oh well.

I would like to thank all those who have chipped in for your valuable inputs and opinions. I will post some pictures once I get the ring.

Cheers!

 

[RockyRacoon]

I will miss the strong fluorescence though... supposed to be a fun feature to amuse my gf and myself.... I even bought a UV torchlight in anticipation. Oh well.

Do not despair, yet - GIA is not entirely consistent in their grading of fluorescence. I've seen stones that were graded 'Medium Blue' with more fluorescence than a 'Very Strong.'

The stone may have more fluor than you have anticipated. I don't mean to inflate your hopes, but it is a distinct possibility. It's unlikely that your stone will appear 'Very Strong,' but it may not be as 'Faint' as the nomenclature indicates.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

Could not find anything better within budget over the last three days. Very tiring process considering the stress I have to go through in the past week.

Decided to order the 1.6 I-color SI2 in the next 24 hours. I have sent in another request to BN to inspect and make sure the twinning wisps on the diamond is not dark in color (though I know it is rarely so), just to make sure. Given my time constraints, this is the safest diamond to get and very unlikely that I would need to return it.

http://www.bluenile.com/sg/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-i-colour-si2-clarity_LD03230549

I will miss the strong fluorescence though... supposed to be a fun feature to amuse my gf and myself.... I even bought a UV torchlight in anticipation. Oh well.

I would like to thank all those who have chipped in for your valuable inputs and opinions. I will post some pictures once I get the ring.

Cheers!

Crap... just called BN for the results of the 2nd inspection request and the vault manager says the twinning wisps are "light" color under inspection with magnification. It is still eye clean but the BN diamond specialist says this is a vague description so the twinning wisps are likely to be greyish in color.... meaning, not dark but also not white.

Should I still get it? Comments, anyone?

 

[LLJsmom]

DearOP,
In the end you are taking a risk buying a diamond without seeing it first, but a relatively educated and calculated risk given the info you have and BN's return policy. I bought my 2.59 from BN and am very happy with it, and I certainly agree with you on the price factor, which was one of the main reasons I choose BN. But I also relied on the hca and plot maps, etc. I returned my first selection, which scored 1.1 on the hca, was a vvs2,3X,F, no fluor. Really on paper it could not get better. But when I saw it it just did not look sparkly to me.go figure. And I did my share of serious searching at brick and mortars too. So returned it and ordered a Fvs13x, scored 1.9 on hca with medium Fluor and I loved it. I guess my point is even something perfect on paper can disappoint. And your eye and your personal perspective can surprise you. You will need to look at it to be sure. And you can always return it. It's a big emotional commitment to pull the trigger to commit to a stone. I get it. Given your time constraint you have done your best. I agree with the poster who said that BN updates it's inventory very quickly. If you had more time you could keep looking. Good luck!!

 

[bunnycat]

I would agree with Christina on the crown angle. I think it could be on the edge of what would be considered a chipping risk, and it could also be that it could lean towards white light perhaps. I forget what the table size was on it. Those are some of the trade offs you get when you go for spread but it could be fine also for your preferences, you'd just need to get it in to look at and see what you think though if you were a person looking for fire in a stone, I'd probably not recommend it. I like a balance of both myself so tend to stick with CA in 34-35.

 

[bunnycat]

We were posting at the same time, Blackprophet!

I agree that the angle on its own looks shallow, but isn't it about how it plays with the other angles? I'm thinking that if it was a badly cut diamond with affected sparkle, it wouldn't have scored under 2?

Try to keep in mind HCA is a rejection tool, not a selection tool. HCA <2 is not an automatic guarantee of anything. If you have read the literature on HCA (I don't remember where I read it) but you will find there are some opinions that HCA <1 tends to occur with shallow diamonds, which as CHristina explained, can have their own issues (like shallow crowns and chipping risks, shallow stones and lack of fire, shallow stones and obstruction issues...) Not all people will agree with that theory, but in my personal experience so far, I have certainly seen it played out in real life in some cases.

 

[MaximusCruiser]

DearOP,
In the end you are taking a risk buying a diamond without seeing it first, but a relatively educated and calculated risk given the info you have and BN's return policy. I bought my 2.59 from BN and am very happy with it, and I certainly agree with you on the price factor, which was one of the main reasons I choose BN. But I also relied on the hca and plot maps, etc. I returned my first selection, which scored 1.1 on the hca, was a vvs2,3X,F, no fluor. Really on paper it could not get better. But when I saw it it just did not look sparkly to me.go figure. And I did my share of serious searching at brick and mortars too. So returned it and ordered a Fvs13x, scored 1.9 on hca with medium Fluor and I loved it. I guess my point is even something perfect on paper can disappoint. And your eye and your personal perspective can surprise you. You will need to look at it to be sure. And you can always return it. It's a big emotional commitment to pull the trigger to commit to a stone. I get it. Given your time constraint you have done your best. I agree with the poster who said that BN updates it's inventory very quickly. If you had more time you could keep looking. Good luck!!

Thanks for sharing your buying experience with BN. Appreciate it!