Blue nile - Hearts and Arrows H&As - How to tell?

[liz-e]

Hi Everyone,

Let me introduce myself first.. I''m Liz.. I live in Australia and as many posts have already said, I feel I should reiterate the point: The diamonds here are mediocre and pricey!

I am looking to buy H&A cut diamonds, preferably .5 F/G - VS1/VS2, No F... EX Sym and Ex Polish.

Most importantly I want the Hearts & Arrow cut which is something that is very difficult to get here in AU.

Unfortunately there are many vendors who do not accept credit card for overseas buyers except so far for Blue Nile and James Allen.

GIA Cert / GCal ( I have read about the GCAL and I''m still pretty confused as it doesnt really state anything about it being a H&A cut or not.)

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-signature-ideal-cut-g-color-vs2-clarity_LD01410844?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

AGSL / GCal

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-signature-ideal-cut-f-color-vs2-clarity_LD01309769?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

Half of the arrows look like they are missing.

So how does one actually tell other than looking at the stone itself?

Any ideas/assistance would be most appreciated.

Thanks! Liz.

 

[stone-cold11]

Why don''t you do a bankwire? I think it is possible to do oversea bankwire?

 

[Darthkim]

Hi Liz-e,

Welcome to PS!. The arrow pictures are sometimes hard to take, but I don''t think I would worry to much. The pavilion Heart picture does look a little strange. Most of the excellent H&A pictures have well defined lines..

Just like any other tools, the hearts and arrow pictures helps you narrow down the better cut diamonds. However, just by those pictures alone, it does not guarantee excellent light performance. Having the Hearts and arrow pictures paired with idealscope report should give you a much better idea of how well the diamond performs.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Liz,

They are both well cut stones, as to whether they are true hearts and arrows they may not be, the images do not give anywhere near enough info, nor do they appear to be advertised as such. If you want a true hearts and arrows, look at some A Cut Above by Whiteflash, Cut by Infinity as sold by www.winkjones.com and ask the vendors about which payment methods they take.

 

[denverappraiser]

Hire a stateside appraiser to inspect the piece and evaluate the hearts before it even gets exported. They can send you images and apply an expert eye on your behalf. If it doesn’t measure up, send it back before you even get it.

I would point out that the stones you linked don’t even claim to have H&A symmetry. Why are you expecting that they do?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/22/2008 8:57:11 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Hire a stateside appraiser to inspect the piece and evaluate the hearts before it even gets exported. They can send you images and apply an expert eye on your behalf. If it doesn’t measure up, send it back before you even get it.

I would point out that the stones you linked don’t even claim to have H&A symmetry. Why are you expecting that they do?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil,

I think elsewhere on the BN site, they represent their round signature diamonds have H&A...

 

[denverappraiser]

Thanks Ira.

You’re right, the page you link to contains the following claim:

The Hearts and Arrows effect is exhibited in all of our round Blue Nile Signature Collection diamonds.

It doesn’t seem to be backed up by anything that a shopper can cross reference and there’s not much to go on with the scale they’ve provided even if they had something so basically they are being asked to simply believe them. The stone apparently meets their standards for H&A, whatever those standards are.

Date: 9/22/2008 1:40:41 AM
Author:liz-e
how does one actually tell other than looking at the stone itself?

This is the key question. You can’t. You must either look at the stone using the appropriate tool yourself or have someone you count as trustworthy look at on your behalf. If that’s the dealer, you’re done because they’ve already made the proclamation. If you’re still not convinced and it’s an important issue to you, you need to either find someone else to assist who you count as more reliable or move on to a different dealer.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/22/2008 10:10:52 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Thanks Ira.

You’re right, the page you link to contains the following claim:

The Hearts and Arrows effect is exhibited in all of our round Blue Nile Signature Collection diamonds.

It doesn’t seem to be backed up by anything that a shopper can cross reference and there’s not much to go on with the scale they’ve provided even if they had something so basically they are being asked to simply believe them. The stone apparently meets their standards for H&A, whatever those standards are.

Date: 9/22/2008 1:40:41 AM
Author:liz-e
how does one actually tell other than looking at the stone itself?

This is the key question. You can’t. You must either look at the stone using the appropriate tool yourself or have someone you count as trustworthy look at on your behalf. If that’s the dealer, you’re done because they’ve already made the proclamation. If you’re still not convinced and it’s an important issue to you, you need to either find someone else to assist who you count as more reliable or move on to a different dealer.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

That is interesting gentlemen.
I just looked at some of the larger signature collection and some have rather long lower girdles and thin stars.
So this means they will have cleft hearts. Which means they would not pass HRD''s grading standard.
for example
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-h-color-si1-clarity_LD01340900?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0#grading_report

Others appear perhaps not to be so super dooper symmetrical from the photo''s
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-h-color-si1-clarity_LD01411511?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0#grading_report
Of course it could be the GCAL photo''s

 

[Darthkim]

This is one of the reasons why I decided not to consider BN among my vendors. I know in the other thread, there is a discussion with GCAL, but the images I saw did not jibe with what I know to be as a proper H&A diamond.

Not saying they don''t sell well performing diamonds, just that one may have to go through extra hoops in verifying their performance.

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/22/2008 4:44:54 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/22/2008 10:10:52 AM

Author: denverappraiser


Thanks Ira.


You’re right, the page you link to contains the following claim:


The Hearts and Arrows effect is exhibited in all of our round Blue Nile Signature Collection diamonds.


It doesn’t seem to be backed up by anything that a shopper can cross reference and there’s not much to go on with the scale they’ve provided even if they had something so basically they are being asked to simply believe them. The stone apparently meets their standards for H&A, whatever those standards are.

Date: 9/22/2008 1:40:41 AM

Author:liz-e

how does one actually tell other than looking at the stone itself?

This is the key question. You can’t. You must either look at the stone using the appropriate tool yourself or have someone you count as trustworthy look at on your behalf. If that’s the dealer, you’re done because they’ve already made the proclamation. If you’re still not convinced and it’s an important issue to you, you need to either find someone else to assist who you count as more reliable or move on to a different dealer.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

That is interesting gentlemen.

I just looked at some of the larger signature collection and some have rather long lower girdles and thin stars.

So this means they will have cleft hearts. Which means they would not pass HRD''s grading standard.

for example

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-h-color-si1-clarity_LD01340900?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0#grading_report


Others appear perhaps not to be so super dooper symmetrical from the photo''s

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-h-color-si1-clarity_LD01411511?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0#grading_report

Of course it could be the GCAL photo''s

Hi Garry,

That is the first thing I noticed - the GCAL photos do not look like H&As even though I have been reassured by BN themselves that all signature cuts exhibit the H&As.

Logic would then tell me that all H&A cut GCAL photos would look reasonably the same if there was a problem with the GCAL photo itself. Well they''re not - so I''m very suspicious of their claims. This unfortunate situation takes BN off my list unless anyone can convince me otherwise that they are H&As.

Then again what do I know, I''m just a diamond newbie really.

Liz

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/22/2008 2:49:26 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
Why don''t you do a bankwire? I think it is possible to do oversea bankwire?

Yes, it is very possible.. It is also very risky and plain stupid.


With Bank Wire:

It is EXTREMELY difficult to recover my money in cases of fraud.
No protection whatsoever for me as a genuine consumer overseas.
Vendor gets their money straight away.

With a Credit Card:
Added protection incase you received fraudulent goods you can dispute the charges.
Vendor also gets their money straight away.

Which one would you choose if you were to spend 5k and if you lived a good 14 - 18 hour flight away from the vendor?

Liz

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/22/2008 10:10:52 AM
Author: denverappraiser


Thanks Ira.


You’re right, the page you link to contains the following claim:


The Hearts and Arrows effect is exhibited in all of our round Blue Nile Signature Collection diamonds.


It doesn’t seem to be backed up by anything that a shopper can cross reference and there’s not much to go on with the scale they’ve provided even if they had something so basically they are being asked to simply believe them. The stone apparently meets their standards for H&A, whatever those standards are.

Exactly! I can''t take their word for it without the evidence... it really does smell unfortunately. Thank you for your help.

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/22/2008 7:15:55 PM
Author: Darthkim
This is one of the reasons why I decided not to consider BN among my vendors. I know in the other thread, there is a discussion with GCAL, but the images I saw did not jibe with what I know to be as a proper H&A diamond.


Not saying they don''t sell well performing diamonds, just that one may have to go through extra hoops in verifying their performance.

Agreed. Can I ask you who you went with instead?

 

[Darthkim]

Hi Liz,

I went with GOG for my ring. I read the other thread about CC vs. Bankwire and it seems that GOG won''t accept CC for international orders either. Major Bummer for you

I was kind of wary in sending my money by bankwire, but there are all these federal protections in the US for stateside bankwires.

I''m sorry to hear that you are having to jump through all these hoops in your search for the perfect diamond. It''s tough enough finding the right diamond, and here your having to deal with the CC vs. Bankwire issue and vendors.

Now..the only thing i can think of is that you could fly to NY and then pay by CC. (which I am pretty sure is not a trivial thing either).

Good luck and keep the hope alive!

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/23/2008 3:07:28 AM
Author: Darthkim
Hi Liz,


I went with GOG for my ring. I read the other thread about CC vs. Bankwire and it seems that GOG won''t accept CC for international orders either. Major Bummer for you


I was kind of wary in sending my money by bankwire, but there are all these federal protections in the US for stateside bankwires.


I''m sorry to hear that you are having to jump through all these hoops in your search for the perfect diamond. It''s tough enough finding the right diamond, and here your having to deal with the CC vs. Bankwire issue and vendors.


Now..the only thing i can think of is that you could fly to NY and then pay by CC. (which I am pretty sure is not a trivial thing either).


Good luck and keep the hope alive!

There is hope.. but it''s sadly faded for me with regards to getting anything from Whiteflash. Working in IT Security and generally being informed about the dangers of bank wires and suspicious activity including forum astroturfing (Not that I would EVER accuse any reputable organisation of doing that) really only leave credit cards as the option.

I wish I was ignorant!

There is also a strong possibility of a group of friends and me going to the US next year but I don''t want to leave it that long. Who knows what position the AU dollar could be in by then.

Thanks for your kind words. I guess you can sense the bitter taste left in my mouth after being told I couldn''t purchase from Whiteflash!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 9/22/2008 10:35:13 PM
Author: liz-e

Date: 9/22/2008 2:49:26 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
Why don't you do a bankwire? I think it is possible to do oversea bankwire?

Yes, it is very possible.. It is also very risky and plain stupid.


With Bank Wire:

It is EXTREMELY difficult to recover my money in cases of fraud.
No protection whatsoever for me as a genuine consumer overseas.
Vendor gets their money straight away.

With a Credit Card:
Added protection incase you received fraudulent goods you can dispute the charges.
Vendor also gets their money straight away.

Which one would you choose if you were to spend 5k and if you lived a good 14 - 18 hour flight away from the vendor?

Liz

Hi Liz - I am also an Australian and have so far done 3 wires to the US - two to GOG and one to WF, and the most recent was for All went smoothly and without incident, and I have no issue recommending others use this method.
The only key is that, of course, you need to trust your vendor. But I would present that if you do not trust them enough to do this, you should not be buying there in the first place.

I do think your statement that its "plain stupid" or "ignorant" is a bit exaggerated, considering the majority of people here use it, I haven't heard of someone having an incident so far.

I am sorry you feel the way you do, I hope you find someone who will accept your CC payment without compromising the quality of vendor.

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/23/2008 4:47:55 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 9/22/2008 10:35:13 PM

Author: liz-e

Date: 9/22/2008 2:49:26 AM

Author: Stone-cold11

Why don''t you do a bankwire? I think it is possible to do oversea bankwire?

Yes, it is very possible.. It is also very risky and plain stupid.



With Bank Wire:


It is EXTREMELY difficult to recover my money in cases of fraud.

No protection whatsoever for me as a genuine consumer overseas.

Vendor gets their money straight away.


With a Credit Card:

Added protection incase you received fraudulent goods you can dispute the charges.

Vendor also gets their money straight away.


Which one would you choose if you were to spend 5k and if you lived a good 14 - 18 hour flight away from the vendor?


Liz

Hi Liz - I am also an Australian and have so far done 3 wires to the US - two to GOG and one to WF, and the most recent was for <5k.

All went smoothly and without incident, and I have no issue recommending others use this method.

The only key is that, of course, you need to trust your vendor. But I would present that if you do not trust them enough to do this, you should not be buying there in the first place.


I do think your statement that its ''plain stupid'' or ''ignorant'' is a bit exaggerated, considering the majority of people here use it, I haven''t heard of someone having an incident so far.


I am sorry you feel the way you do, I hope you find someone who will accept your CC payment without compromising the quality of vendor.

Hi Fellow Australian

Trust for me as a consumer when purchasing overseas comes in the form of having CC payment. It''s a two way transaction and Whiteflash has put all the risk on the consumer.

I can see all the positive informative feedback GOG and WF have received, however I am not going to let > $5k go based on a few recommendations.

With regards to bank-wire I''ve done my research, even found a website where the American Government are advising consumers against bank-wire to bank accounts as there is no recourse for the consumer. To me that really speaks for itself.

As for the comment "plain stupid" ... let me rephrase and call it an educated risk analysis.

As for comprising the quality of the vendor, I see your point. On the flipside the vendor is also losing a market share to others who will happly accept CC payment. Perhaps the possible loss outweigh the gains or they simply don''t make enough revenue from/care about overseas buyers. I don''t know the percentage of consumers overseas who purchase diamonds in the US to really comment. It would seem obvious from my searching on google that Blue Nile has a competitive edge with overseas customers due to ''free shipping'' and CC payment.


I''m not from Nigeria or some other high risk country, I''m willing to have them charge the credit card up front / provide identification (Which interestingly puts me at risk of identity fraud). I''m also happy to call them, email them, have them check the credit card matches the billing address, contact the Billing Address to confirm employment or whatever other steps are required (the billing address is co-incidentally an American global investment bank). In short, I don''t want to get ripped off either.

Essentially I''m low risk - So what''s the problem? the majority of vendors across the world (including progressive countries like China) ship to Australia using Credit Card.

When I told my fiance we may have to look at another vendor he was first to question the quality / reputation of an vendor that insists on bank wire only. *shrug*

The "ignorance" comment was referring to me wishing I was ignorant, not anyone else, so I hope that clarifies things.


Cheers, Liz.

 

[arjunajane]

No worries Liz, I too would be interested to hear why they don''t like to do it - have you asked GOG and WF?

 

[liz-e]

Date: 9/23/2008 6:00:21 AM
Author: arjunajane
No worries Liz, I too would be interested to hear why they don''t like to do it - have you asked GOG and WF?

My guess is that they just put a blanket bank-wire only policy as they probably don''t want to go through the hassle of analysing the risk for each customer?

However I did enquire via email (gmail mind you) .. to Whiteflash and got a very standardised "We''ve been burnt" response. Shame really for those of us who are genuine and very interested in a high quality product.

 

[denverappraiser]

Liz,

I’m not understanding the problem with simply patronizing either Blue Nile or James Allen since you like their payment procedures the best. Both are reputable companies. The concern seems to be that you want more information about the stone before you commit to it but this is easily available, especially from James Allen, who will sometimes even agree to do this even before they charge your credit card. Have them ship it to your chosen US based appraiser for inspection. That’ll get you your H&A images and a full professional analysis of them before the export and it leaves you the opportunity to return it if you find something lacking. All you need do is pay for the appraisal services and perhaps some shipping. We''re not talking about a $5000 risk here, it''s more like a $150 risk.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 9/23/2008 7:05:49 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Liz,


I’m not understanding the problem with simply patronizing either Blue Nile or James Allen since you like their payment procedures the best. Both are reputable companies. The concern seems to be that you want more information about the stone before you commit to it but this is easily available, especially from James Allen, who will sometimes even agree to do this even before they charge your credit card. Have them ship it to your chosen US based appraiser for inspection. That’ll get you your H&A images and a full professional analysis of them before the export and it leaves you the opportunity to return it if you find something lacking. All you need do is pay for the appraisal services and perhaps some shipping. We're not talking about a $5000 risk here, it's more like a $150 risk.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

I agree that it is wonderful to reward the business that cares enough to offer the services you want/need - and this is one reason why I would happily buy from either of these companies ... if they had the style of ring (setting) that I want.
Perhaps it's a woman thing?

although paying with your cc via Paypal does seem like an alternative option...

 

[Rhino]

Just reading through this thread ...

I totally sympathize with both you liz-e from a consumers perspective and also with WF since I can also see this from the vendors perspective. When a vendor first goes online they enter with a certain level of fear/skepticism etc as they stand to risk a lot of money. Back in 98 when we first went online we accepted credit cards from outside the US ... that is until someone paid for a diamond that was over 20k and while the diamond was enroute their card was cancelled, never paid and credit card companies within the US will not insure internet transactions paid via cc with overseas purchases. Perhaps JA and BN hasn''t been burnt enough times to learn a lesson but it only needs to happen to me once. With Internet markup''s the amount of sales it takes to compensate for 1 bogus transaction of that magnitude a month isn''t worth it. Perhaps American companies that accept outside cc''s are not reporting them as Internet transactions but "in house" transactions and having these insured? I don''t know but if credit card companies could insure and guarantee overseas credit cards we''d be happy to begin instituting that as a method of payment.

Kind regards,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 9/24/2008 12:22:46 PM
Author: Rhino
Just reading through this thread ...

I totally sympathize with both you liz-e from a consumers perspective and also with WF since I can also see this from the vendors perspective. When a vendor first goes online they enter with a certain level of fear/skepticism etc as they stand to risk a lot of money. Back in 98 when we first went online we accepted credit cards from outside the US ... that is until someone paid for a diamond that was over 20k and while the diamond was enroute their card was cancelled, never paid and credit card companies within the US will not insure internet transactions paid via cc with overseas purchases. Perhaps JA and BN hasn''t been burnt enough times to learn a lesson but it only needs to happen to me once. With Internet markup''s the amount of sales it takes to compensate for 1 bogus transaction of that magnitude a month isn''t worth it. Perhaps American companies that accept outside cc''s are not reporting them as Internet transactions but ''in house'' transactions and having these insured? I don''t know but if credit card companies could insure and guarantee overseas credit cards we''d be happy to begin instituting that as a method of payment.

Kind regards,

Jon
we do business base on trust

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 9/24/2008 12:22:46 PM
Author: Rhino
Just reading through this thread ...

I totally sympathize with both you liz-e from a consumers perspective and also with WF since I can also see this from the vendors perspective. When a vendor first goes online they enter with a certain level of fear/skepticism etc as they stand to risk a lot of money. Back in 98 when we first went online we accepted credit cards from outside the US ... that is until someone paid for a diamond that was over 20k and while the diamond was enroute their card was cancelled, never paid and credit card companies within the US will not insure internet transactions paid via cc with overseas purchases. Perhaps JA and BN hasn't been burnt enough times to learn a lesson but it only needs to happen to me once. With Internet markup's the amount of sales it takes to compensate for 1 bogus transaction of that magnitude a month isn't worth it. Perhaps American companies that accept outside cc's are not reporting them as Internet transactions but 'in house' transactions and having these insured? I don't know but if credit card companies could insure and guarantee overseas credit cards we'd be happy to begin instituting that as a method of payment.

Kind regards,

Hey Jon, thankyou for offering the vendors POV., Sorry to hear about the sheister

It has come to light in another thread that WF will accept CC through Paypal for verified o/seas customers.
May I ask if GOG will be open to this method in the future?