Becoming slightly obsessed over this stone - please can you help me decide?

[IssyBelle]

Not sure if you've seen this yet or not, but here are some pics for comparison. FYI, although I've referred to them by carat weight so you could easily identify to the links you posted earlier from WF, I have actually entered the actual dimensions of each diamond.

If you'd like to verify this yourself...DiamDB

My own 2 cents is I'd drop the .813ct as there isn't much size difference, and we've established the ASET image at 4'oclock is odd. My second thought is that staying in budget would be more important to me than the very small size difference you see in the two diamonds.

If you want us to pull some diamonds from alternate sources, we can do that.


Pic 1 = ring size 6.5, .78ct (left) vs .813ct (right)


Pic 2 = ring size 6.5, .78ct (left) vs .88ct (right)

Hi @sledge - the images are definitely helpful thank you for these. I like the size of the .78, my ring size is about 5.5 so slightly smaller than the images, this would bode well for the smaller stone too I guess? Don’t laugh at this but I actually measured out the stone dimensions and tried to sketch them on my finger. Needless to say it wasn’t a success.
Yes please I’d really welcome some help with the search, thank you.

 

[gm89uk]

That is because the girdle is dug out.
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds
Actually, the girdle is dug out all around the edges, not just at the 4 o'clock. While digging is not uncommon among superideal cut diamonds, I have not seen anything like that, especially from WF ACA.

The main sign is the green claws reaching in from the girdle of the diamond on the ASET, as is the case at 4 o' clock on this ASET. I'm not sure where he is getting the "digging around all of the edges" from.

'dug out around the edges' is an astute observation from @flyingpig. You can see it in the 'v' contrast patterns all around the stone. The effect of it is subtle but most obvious in the head on picture. If you look at the edge of this diamond with the alleged digging, vs a normal ACA, you can immediately see the difference in angle of reflection around the edge of stone. This may not be enough to make it green on the ASET but certainly shows up on the picture. I appreciate @Texas Leaguer looking into it internally. Whether it will affect RL stone performance, probably all just academic. The angle of light return is still >45degrees!

This is possibly the issue with detailed imaging, consumers/prosumers nitpicking in impossibly subtle details in otherwise perfect diamonds. The demand for consistency in a brand is becoming increasingly higher as consumer knowledge grows, more so than is probably required considering this is just over half a cm in size.

Saying that, I am guilty and would skip this for another ACA, as choice is plentiful.

 

[sledge]

Hi @sledge - the images are definitely helpful thank you for these. I like the size of the .78, my ring size is about 5.5 so slightly smaller than the images, this would bode well for the smaller stone too I guess? Don’t laugh at this but I actually measured out the stone dimensions and tried to sketch them on my finger. Needless to say it wasn’t a success.
Yes please I’d really welcome some help with the search, thank you.

No laughing here. Here is a new image comparing the .78 to the .88 carat using a 5.5 ring size you indicated. The band in the picture is 2mm FYI.

As I mentioned before, my eyes just don't see enough difference to justify the extra money for a .88 carat. I recently bought me a BGD .867 carat for about $4,800 which is the deal you need IMO. Mine was an H VS2.

I will look for some more stones when I get time, but if you ever think you may trade up in the future then maybe dropping a color or clarity level isn't bad as long as the stone is still white enough and definitely eye clean. WF has a great trade in policy. BGD is good too, but a little more strict as you have to upgrade two characteristics out of: color, clarity or carat.

 

[Snowdrop13]

@IssyBelle yes, Blue Nile have all the stones available on the U.K. site, just search using the number with “LD” at the start. I found it yesterday, I think it was £4600 or so- it won’t save you taxes but they are included in the price given in £ so no issues with customs for you and much easier to return if you need to. I’m not sure if they provide ASETs yet, maybe you could ask if you’re interested in that, or any other stone.

PS if you need to look at superideal cuts in person there is a CBI vendor in London now, check on their website for the details.

 

[sledge]

Some alternates...

$3,700 - ACA, 0.816ct, H, SI1 (says eye clean & cert looks good but verify w/ WF)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3961918.htm

$4,345 - ACA, .813ct, H, VS1 (very clean)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3963077.htm

$3,699 - ACA, .812ct, H, SI1 (cert is "eh", but says eye clean - verify)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3964551.htm

$4,385 - Expert Select, .826ct, G, VS2
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3880146.htm

$4,083 - .801ct, H, VS2
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/0.801-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104099554050

FYI, I really like the sparkle of the BG stone. In all cases, I'd have them pulled and inspected by BG or WF gemologist and verify all are eye clean. My standards for eye clean is 6" from the top & sides, but I'm more picky about clarity than some folks here. While eye clean is a subjective term, many interpret to mean 10" from the top only.

Also, with the WF stones, I'd have them pull all 4 and compare side by side and start eliminating based on what the gemologist reports to you via phone.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

That is because the girdle is dug out.
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds
Actually, the girdle is dug out all around the edges, not just at the 4 o'clock. While digging is not uncommon among superideal cut diamonds, I have not seen anything like that, especially from WF ACA.

This was a good catch FP. Our diamond review team agrees - this diamond is just out of spec for ACA. It is being moved into Expert Selection (pricing adjusted accordingly).

We appreciate the feedback.

 

[flyingpig]

This was a good catch FP. Our diamond review team agrees - this diamond is just out of spec for ACA. It is being moved into Expert Selection (pricing adjusted accordingly).
We appreciate the feedback.

I am always impressed with WF's service and quality management.

Going back to the topic of digging, there are a few comments that such degree of digging is not noticeable IRL. That's debatable. I, certainly, will notice the difference in leakage patterns around the edges in comparison with a diamond with classic girdle, without any loupe and/or special equipment such as IS/ASET. Regarding the green at 4 o'clock, it will be tough, but there is a reasonable chance that I will notice it. Your RL experience may differ.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I am always impressed with WF's service and quality management.

Going back to the topic of digging, there are a few comments that such degree of digging is not noticeable IRL. That's debatable. I, certainly, will notice the difference in leakage patterns around the edges in comparison with a diamond with classic girdle, without any loupe and/or special equipment such as IS/ASET. Regarding the green at 4 o'clock, it will be tough, but there is a reasonable chance that I will notice it. Your RL experience may differ.

But it's not leakage FP. That's why it does not show up in IS. Those uppers are drawing light from just under the 45 degree demarcation of red and green in ASET. Would take a very sensitive eye to spot it in real life, to put it mildly.

 

[flyingpig]

But it's not leakage FP. That's why it does not show up in IS. Those uppers are drawing light from just under the 45 degree demarcation of red and green in ASET. Would take a very sensitive eye to spot it in real life, to put it mildly.

No, I am not calling the green at 4'clock leakage. I am talking about those V shaped leakages around the edges.

 

[rockysalamander]

@IssyBelle Just checking on how you are doing with the selections posted above. Are you good on choices or need more input?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

No, I am not calling the green at 4'clock leakage. I am talking about those V shaped leakages around the edges.

This is common to standard indexing. It can be eliminated by crown painting (Eightstar style). But it seems most observers like standard. The small leakages evidently contribute a touch of positive contrast that enhances scintillation.
It's an interesting lesson that applies also to fancy shapes. Some fancies appear leaky in ASET but are very appealing in real life. It turns out a small amount of leakage well distributed can be a good thing for diamond beauty.

 

[IssyBelle]

Some alternates...

$3,700 - ACA, 0.816ct, H, SI1 (says eye clean & cert looks good but verify w/ WF)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3961918.htm

$4,345 - ACA, .813ct, H, VS1 (very clean)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3963077.htm

$3,699 - ACA, .812ct, H, SI1 (cert is "eh", but says eye clean - verify)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3964551.htm

$4,385 - Expert Select, .826ct, G, VS2
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3880146.htm

$4,083 - .801ct, H, VS2
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/0.801-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104099554050

FYI, I really like the sparkle of the BG stone. In all cases, I'd have them pulled and inspected by BG or WF gemologist and verify all are eye clean. My standards for eye clean is 6" from the top & sides, but I'm more picky about clarity than some folks here. While eye clean is a subjective term, many interpret to mean 10" from the top only.

Also, with the WF stones, I'd have them pull all 4 and compare side by side and start eliminating based on what the gemologist reports to you via phone.

Hi Sledge - that’s very good of you to come back with some great options and I very much appreciate the sound advice also. I took a bit of time out today to pause and clear my head (diamond searching can be a little draining) but after some shut eye I’ll be back on the case tomorrow

 

[IssyBelle]

@IssyBelle Just checking on how you are doing with the selections posted above. Are you good on choices or need more input?

I ended up taking a break today from searching (and thinking) but I’ll be back on it tomorrow. Yes please, any input you have I definitely want to hear about

 

[TreeScientist]

No, I am not calling the green at 4'clock leakage. I am talking about those V shaped leakages around the edges.

Agreed with @Texas Leaguer here, the little indexes right behind the arrow points are seen in the IS of pretty much every well-cut diamond. Has nothing to do with digging at all. It's not even where digging would show up in as IS. That would be a lack of saturation (a pink/white half-moon shape) in the gap BETWEEN the arrow points. Where did you get that arrow point indexing results from digging?

And thanks for coming back and giving the update @Texas Leaguer regarding the misplacement of that stone. Mistakes happen, and I truly appreciate it when companies can openly admit a slight error and make it right. While I agree that the digging at 4 o'clock would not make any noticable difference in IRL performance, it doesn't quite represent the exacting standards that the ACA line has come to represent, making it a great "near miss" for the ES line. Thank you for upholding the ACA standards.

 

[flyingpig]

Agreed with @Texas Leaguer here, the little indexes right behind the arrow points are seen in the IS of pretty much every well-cut diamond. Has nothing to do with digging at all. It's not even where digging would show up in as IS. That would be a lack of saturation (a pink/white half-moon shape) in the gap BETWEEN the arrow points. Where did you get that arrow point indexing results from digging?

Sorry, a pink/white half-moon shape you mentioned can be seen in diamxray images, not in IS images.
https://www.goodoldgold.com/painting-digging-painted
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds

 

[TreeScientist]

Sorry, a pink/white half-moon shape you mentioned can be seen in diamxray images, not in IS images.
https://www.goodoldgold.com/painting-digging-painted
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds

Wrong again. It can be seen in IS images if the digging is bad enough to compromise light return.



But back to the original question, where did you hear that indexing around arrow points is a result of digging? Every SuperIdeal diamond I've ever seen listed on the various vendor's websites has this indexing.

 

[flyingpig]

Wrong again. It can be seen in IS images if the digging is bad enough to compromise light return.

You've got to have some serious digging to see that under the IS. I guess Garry used some seriously badly cut stone as an example ( @Garry H (Cut Nut) . I don't expect you are going to see that degree of digging in GIA ex or AGS 0/1.

I already answered your original question in regard to where I got my information
https://www.goodoldgold.com/painting-digging-painted @Rhino
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds @John Pollard

To my eyes, this section is dug out crown only to 2~3 degrees.
I am calling out to Garry, Rhino and John and @Texas Leaguer to make sure I am not interpreting their images and articles incorrectly.

 

[TreeScientist]

You've got to have some serious digging to see that under the IS. I guess Garry used some seriously badly cut stone as an example ( @Garry H (Cut Nut) . I don't expect you are going to see that degree of digging in GIA ex or AGS 0/1.

I already answered your original question in regard to where I got my information
https://www.goodoldgold.com/painting-digging-painted @Rhino
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds @John Pollard

To my eyes, this section is dug out crown only to 2~3 degrees.
I am calling out to Garry, Rhino and John to make sure I am not interpreting their images and articles incorrectly.
View attachment 629201

Yes, slightly dug out... at the 4 'o clock position (between the 3 and 5 'o clock arrows)... We've already established that. Which is what would cause the appearance of "double indexing" at those arrows at 3 and 5, and the cause of the green "claws" between those arrows in the ASET. The double indexing is not what you would actually notice IRL, but rather is a diagnostic signal for digging between those arrow points. You seem to think this slight digging would affect IRL light performance. While I agree it's not perfect, I disagree about being able to actually differentiate something as slight as this IRL, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

 

[flyingpig]

Yes, slightly dug out... at the 4 'o clock position (between the 3 and 5 'o clock arrows)... We've already established that. Which is what would cause the appearance of "double indexing" at those arrows at 3 and 5, and the cause of the green "claws" between those arrows in the ASET. The double indexing is not what you would actually notice IRL, but rather is a diagnostic signal for digging between those arrow points. You seem to think this slight digging would affect IRL light performance. While I agree it's not perfect, I disagree about being able to actually differentiate something as slight as this IRL, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

You are mis-interpreting what I wrote.
Throughout my comments, I have never used the word "performance". In fact, I consciously avoid using that word recently. How does this slight digging affect IRL light performance?? I don't know and I am not commenting on that.
However, if I were presented two stones, this particular stone with some digging and another ACA with classic girdle, upon close inspection, I will be able to tell which one is which, every time, without a loupe or ASET/IS, believe or not. 99% people will not notice this double indexing. Unfortunately, I will.
All I am saying is this stone has dug out girdle which one may be able to notice as he/she gains experience.

As I wrote, your experience may vary.

 

[John P]

To my eyes, this section is dug out crown only to 2~3 degrees. I am calling out to Garry, Rhino and John and @Texas Leaguer to make sure I am not interpreting their images and articles incorrectly.

You nailed it. Modeled on Comparison Chart 1 on this page you linked -
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds

Yes, slightly dug out... at the 4 'o clock position (between the 3 and 5 'o clock arrows)... We've already established that. Which is what would cause the appearance of "double indexing" at those arrows at 3 and 5, and the cause of the green "claws" between those arrows in the ASET. The double indexing is not what you would actually notice IRL, but rather is a diagnostic signal for digging between those arrow points.

Diagnostic signal. Nicely said. Rather than ‘double-indexing,’ it's characterized as a ‘deviation from normal indexing’ made as the brillianteerer worked around the azimuth of the diamond. In past times this was sometimes done at all half junctions around the stone as a way to fool graders about true girdle thickness when those judgments were made by eye (also explained at the link above). It could also occur spuriously as a result of inferior tools or laborer skill.

GIA started penalizing too much deviation from normal indexing in 2006. So today such a deviation in an otherwise well-made diamond is typically made to chase out a surface inclusion or necessarily solve some other confounder. It changes the angles of those particular upper half facets, to the point where they draw light from lower angles than others in their group. Thus the green seen in ASET.

You seem to think this slight digging would affect IRL light performance. While I agree it's not perfect, I disagree about being able to actually differentiate something as slight as this IRL, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

All I am saying is this stone has dug out girdle which one may be able to notice as he/she gains experience.

I believe you two are in concert here. No one sees this at a casual glance. Even paying attention, bright lighting masks such a single area unless the dig is egregious (two clicks or more, and this is only one). If you lower the lighting and raise the experience that can change. Veterans can slowly examine a diamond under favorable lighting and detect even slight areas of extinction or brightness reduction. That depends on the diamond, the lighting and the observer.

 

[TreeScientist]

GIA started penalizing too much deviation from normal indexing in 2006. So today such a deviation in an otherwise well-made diamond is typically made to chase out a surface inclusion or necessarily solve some other confounder. It changes the angles of those particular upper half facets, to the point where they draw light from lower angles than others in their group. Thus the green seen in ASET.

Thanks for the clarification John. This paragraph raises an interesting point that I've observed while viewing diamond certificates and the corresponding light return tools: That there seems to be a high correlation between the appearance of crown digging (the green claws) in ASETs, and indented naturals and naturals on the corresponding inclusion plots. Not in this particular case, but I've seen numerous dug girdles on diamonds with naturals listed in the plot. Based on what you said here, it seems like these girdles are being purposely dug out (slightly, not enough to have them docked a cut grade for brillianteering) to make an indented natural or natural smaller, in an effort to raise the clarity grade of the stone by a grade or two while preserving as much rough as possible. I never really put two and two together until now, and thus couldn't understand why a cutter would purposely dig out a girdle.

Thanks for enlightening me on this topic. Always learning something new from your posts.