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Beauty pageants

texaskj

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After sitting here at work waiting for the AP to move a story and art of the Miss America pageant, I can't help but wonder if anyone cares about these things anymore? Say what they will about the scholarship money, they just come across as really offensive in this day and age.

What say you, PSers? Yay or nay?
 

Gypsy

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I think they need to evolve to be less about beauty, to eliminate swimsuits and have more of a focus on community service and charity (real charity), and instead of dubious 'talent' competition have a list of real accomplishments or a real head to head competition between the candidates. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that they will, people clinging to 'tradition' like it has some meaning.

As they are now they are offensive. Can you imagine a MEN's beauty pagent? Seriously? A swimsuit competition? Talent?

Of course not. Because MEN are more than their looks. Their looks are largey irrelevant. Because they are treated like PEOPLE. REAL people.

Women still aren't.
 

Queenie60

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Gypsy|1473657110|4075414 said:
I think they need to evolve to be less about beauty, to eliminate swimsuits and have more of a focus on community service and charity (real charity), and instead of dubious 'talent' competition have a list of real accomplishments or a real head to head competition between the candidates. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that they will, people clinging to 'tradition' like it has some meaning.

As they are now they are offensive. Can you imagine a MEN's beauty pagent? Seriously? A swimsuit competition? Talent?

Of course not. Because MEN are more than their looks. Their looks are largey irrelevant. Because they are treated like PEOPLE. REAL people.

Women still aren't.

My words exactly.
 

CJ2008

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Yeah...they feel pretty silly to me for the most part. Women parading around.

I think they focus way too much on beauty/looks.

Definitely eliminate the swimsuit...

Make it about accomplishments, charity, personality, etc.

Although, of course, looks would still play a role. They always do.

(funny you brought this up today, I watched the 20/20 on JonBenet :(( ...and I just hated the way that little girl looked all made up...)
 

missy

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Queenie60|1473658229|4075417 said:
Gypsy|1473657110|4075414 said:
I think they need to evolve to be less about beauty, to eliminate swimsuits and have more of a focus on community service and charity (real charity), and instead of dubious 'talent' competition have a list of real accomplishments or a real head to head competition between the candidates. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that they will, people clinging to 'tradition' like it has some meaning.

As they are now they are offensive. Can you imagine a MEN's beauty pagent? Seriously? A swimsuit competition? Talent?

Of course not. Because MEN are more than their looks. Their looks are largey irrelevant. Because they are treated like PEOPLE. REAL people.

Women still aren't.

My words exactly.
Huge ditto. They are demeaning to women and continue to view women as sex objects and "things" of beauty rather than complex intelligent human beings who can make a difference in this world. It makes me ill that "Beauty Pageants" as they are now still exist. :knockout:
 

momhappy

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It's called a beauty pageant and therefore, it focuses on beauty/physical appearance. I don't think it needs to evolve into anything because it just is what it is. There are lots of other opportunities for people to showcase (and potentially be rewarded for) other things like their intelligence, charitable work, musical ability, etc. I don't have an issue with beauty pageants, but I'm not necessarily a fan either. I guess they don't really bother me one way or another. It's obvious that we live in a society that places a great deal of emphasis on beauty/physical appearance, so in that sense, a beauty pageant is just another example of that. Today's Miss America does focus more on the contestant's ability to better themselves and their communities as opposed to the Miss America contests of the past that were focused solely on beauty. Pageants are a personal preference and they seem to have a small following within our society. I can see why some people think they are ridiculous (in some ways they are), but no one is forced to be participate in them just like no one is forced to watch them (and I don't think many people do any more).
 

missy

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Momhappy, I am speaking my opinion only and I have a distaste for beauty pageants because I think they are demeaning. They focus on something so superficial and something that damages the psyche of many young women who are influenced heavily by the ideal of "beauty". Yeah I'm so not a fan. And it is a sexist outdated contest and the world would be a better place if such competitions didn't exist.

Don't we want to make this world a healthier and better place and put the emphasis on what truly matters? Being kind, generous, tolerant and loving? Just to name a few of the better traits to focus on IMO.
 

momhappy

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^Yes, I get that, but I also don't see an issue if someone wants to participate in and/or watch a beauty pageant. We are surrounded by images of beauty (because we value it), so I don't think it's realistic to attack the pageant world unless we also attack the very reason why they exist. The world does value kindness, generosity, love, tolerance and just because a small percentage of people might also value beauty (by modeling, by participating a beauty pageant, etc.) doesn't change that. I would be a hypocrite if I said that beauty pageants were awful because I participate in it by placing an emphasis on my physics appearance, by buying fashion magazines, by purchasing beauty products, etc. So, yeah, I'm hardly one to judge...
 

missy

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Well I admit it I do judge certain things and I think just saying we are surrounded by images of superficial sexist images to embrace it no I can't. Change begins with one small move and we need more people to demand these sexist competitions stop. For a start. I'll just agree to disagree with you because I think they are harmful and you don't. That's fine. We don't agree on many issues and that's ok.


Just adding if this world didn't place such an emphasis on superficial beauty perhaps you wouldn't feel so badly about certain superficial aspects of aging. Just saying. It is a vicious cycle yanno and we would not feel as badly about our bodies and our faces if the great majority of people didn't make superficial beauty such a critical important issue. Something that doesn't mean anything about who you are as a person. Just think about it. Don't you think everyone would be better off? Putting value on what counts? IMO.
 

CJ2008

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Change has to start somewhere...

Just because we know how much society emphasizes looks, and we participate in it, these things are more subtle (or at least we could argue that)...but having contests to judge beauty is like giving an explicit "OK" to judging people on looks. The whole premise just feels wrong.
 

momhappy

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^and again, I get that, but unless you reject all of it, then I don't think it's fair to say that beauty pageants are gross and therefore, we should get rid of them. It's not my place to judge because I participate in putting time, energy, and money into my physical appearance. I may not be in beauty pageants, but on a small scale, I know that l am judged every day for my physical appearance (and it's part of what motivates me to do it). It's not one or the other (what's on the outside and what's on the inside) because it can be both. Just because someone might be fascinated by, attracted to, etc. beauty, doesn't mean that they don't value what's on the inside too.
 

CJ2008

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Why not?

Why can't we indeed say they ARE gross and we should get rid of them?

Do we all have to stop wearing makeup and taking care of ourselves just to be able to say that and make it fair?

I don't think so.

If it's a little bit hypocritical to say that and still wear makeup or admire other people's looks that is still better than having these things exist. I feel the same way about those diva bodybuilding type competitions even though I know those women put some serious work into developing their bodies.

(again, this is just how I see it, I get that you see it different. just stating my view.) =)
 

momhappy

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You can. You can say pageants are gross and we should get rid of them, but I'm not. I place way too much emphasis on my physical appearance (and no, I don't do it just to be healthy/take care of myself) and therefore, I don't feel like it's my place to say that pageants are bad. Some people might think wearing makeup is bad, coloring your hair is bad, buying fashion magazines is bad, etc. and that's their prerogative. I don't have an issue if someone thinks pageants are bad, but I'm fine with it the way it is since I participate in the same system (just in different ways).
 

missy

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Momhappy. Part of (maybe a large part of) why you feel this way is you have been brainwashed by society. By men who place such a huge emphasis on our superficial appearance. Men created beauty pageants and they are cultural artifacts and should be ended IMO.
It makes women feel bad about themselves and hurts the children. If I remember correctly you have boys but if you had a daughter would you want her objectified this way? Judged for how she looks?

Listen, you're aging and I know you lament what it's doing to your appearance. Nothing wrong with wanting to be your personal best but when you start feeling bad about yourself because of the way you look that's a problem. I'm not against wearing makeup and doing our hair and I like looking my best but I'm also ok with not wearing makeup etc. I know that doesn't make me a better person if I look pretty or not. I don't judge anyone for their superficial appearance. If they are attractive by whatever standards or not. Beauty pageants by definition do. They judge us on how we look. It's horrible to judge anyone for that. IMO.

I think society has it ingrained in our minds that we must look pretty or we aren't as good as someone who is pretty. Ridiculous and beauty pageants just exacerbate the brainwashing of women. IMO.

Sent via iPhone.
 

momhappy

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Missy - I understand how it works. Our society values physical appearance and I buy into it. I didn't say it was right or wrong to have feelings about it one way or another. I choose to participate because I like to look pretty, have others think I look pretty, etc. and yes, I'm aware that it goes deeper than that (that we've all been brainwashed to think these things). I don't have a problem if someone feels pageants are horrible. Again, I'm not really a fan, but that doesn't mean that I need to make them all go away.
 

texaskj

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Gypsy said it best for me.
There is no way in holy hell I would let a girl watch any of these things.

Read these lyrics and wonder if anything even remotely like them would be used for men:

THERE SHE IS, MISS AMERICA
From "The Miss America Pageant"
(Bernie Wayne)


There she is, Miss America
There she is, your ideal
The dream of a million girls who are more than pretty can come true
in Atlantic City
For she may turn out to be the Queen of femininity

There she is, Miss America
There she is, your ideal
With so many beauties she took the town by storm
With her all-American face and form

And there she is
Walking on air, she is
Fairest of the fair, she is
There she is - Miss America

Seriously? This is OK?!?
 

CJ2008

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texaskj|1473697030|4075542 said:
Gypsy said it best for me.
There is no way in holy hell I would let a girl watch any of these things.

Read these lyrics and wonder if anything even remotely like them would be used for men:

THERE SHE IS, MISS AMERICA
From "The Miss America Pageant"
(Bernie Wayne)


There she is, Miss America
There she is, your ideal
The dream of a million girls who are more than pretty can come true
in Atlantic City
For she may turn out to be the Queen of femininity

There she is, Miss America
There she is, your ideal
With so many beauties she took the town by storm
With her all-American face and form

And there she is
Walking on air, she is
Fairest of the fair, she is
There she is - Miss America

Seriously? This is OK?!?
cringe :knockout:
 

redwood66

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I don't watch them. Never really have because it does not interest me. Mothers treat their children like dolls. But if you say we should get rid of pageants then Vogue, Cosmopolitan, GQ, beauty products, fashion designers and the like should all be gone too. Beauty and fashion are multi-billion dollar industries because people buy what they are selling. It is the free market at work. So if you require that we do away with all of that then you are moving toward an -ism of a society that I do not wish to be a part of. People don't like some conservatives for their pro-life views and projecting their morality on others. Isn't that in the same vein as abolishing beauty pageants because one feels it is demeaning? If one wants to be a natural, no make-up, no bra, sweatpants wearing person then so be it. If one doesn't then they have that choice also. I don't judge. But therein is the issue, judgement. On all sides.
 

momhappy

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^Yes! That's what I was trying to say, but as usual, you said it better than I could ever have, redwood =)
 

redwood66

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momhappy|1473702074|4075569 said:
^Yes! That's what I was trying to say, but as usual, you said it better than I could ever have, redwood =)
:wavey:

The irony that this is a diamond and jewelry forum is not lost on me either. ;))
 

Marquise_Madness

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kenny said:
Oh fiddle sticks! ... Beauty pageants aren't ALL bad.
They're good for something ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
Those are Miss USA, not the Miss America which is going on now. Miss America is a bit more prestigious and scholarship-y. Miss USA is the Donald Trump one.

I knew a few USA contestants. One got pregnant on purpose at age 20 to a rich boyfriend of 3 months, and they got to okay house in a super nice apartment paid for by his mommy and daddy, got engaged while heavily pregnant to her "Christ like" boyfriend on Christmas, had the baby in March, got married right after May and they got an incredibly nice house as a wedding gift from his parents. And she works in the wedding industry.

I lived with an America contestant. Super nice girl. Broke up with her long term boyfriend recently. No kids.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

missy

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redwood66 said:
I don't watch them. Never really have because it does not interest me. Mothers treat their children like dolls. But if you say we should get rid of pageants then Vogue, Cosmopolitan, GQ, beauty products, fashion designers and the like should all be gone too. Beauty and fashion are multi-billion dollar industries because people buy what they are selling. It is the free market at work. So if you require that we do away with all of that then you are moving toward an -ism of a society that I do not wish to be a part of. People don't like some conservatives for their pro-life views and projecting their morality on others. Isn't that in the same vein as abolishing beauty pageants because one feels it is demeaning? If one wants to be a natural, no make-up, no bra, sweatpants wearing person then so be it. If one doesn't then they have that choice also. I don't judge. But therein is the issue, judgement. On all sides.
OK Redwood on the surface you make a good point. However it is not comparing apples to apples and even if it were we have to start somewhere. IMO it is NEVER good to objectify women like this. And yeah I am judging. I think we (yes that includes me and you too) are desensitized to just how much women are objectified.

Society's tendency to objectify women is the problem. The way society depicts female sexuality has serious negative consequences on society, and women in particular.
Focus on physical appearance influences self-esteem at an early age.It affects our body image and our self worth. It exacerbates or causes struggles with perfection and dieting and cause eating disorders.

The list of negative consequences go on and on. Negative physical and psychological and emotional, and cultural. The consequences are far reaching. Studies show that this kind of objectification and focus on superficial beauty absolutely negatively affects cognitive functioning and young girls and adult women's physical and mental health and sexuality.

https://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-full.pdf


This focus on superficial beauty produces a drive towards the unattainable goal of physical perfection. "The Princess Syndrome" is a fairy tale...more like a nightmare. Unrealistic expectations to be thin, physically beautiful, and perfect are at the heart of some disordered eating behaviors and body dissatisfaction.


"Pageants are a sanitized and sanctioned outgrowth of nineteenth-century carnival sideshows."
(I like this quote and agree so included it but got it here fyi.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheila-moeschen/beauty-pageants-are-bad-fore-everyone_b_3466575.html)

Beauty pageants are archaic and restrictive and perpetuate a damaging very specific, stereotypical definition of beauty.
Beauty pageants are moneymaking machines fueled by female insecurity and submission.

Real beauty is about resilience and strength. Real beauty is messy and organic and IMO has nothing to do with your physical appearance. Women deserve better.


As for magazines yes they are along similar lines though not entirely the same I get what you are saying.
Men's magazines objectify women, but women's magazines do it too.

Both men's and women's magazines objectify women and the images in them are similar and they are both doing more or less the same thing. They are making women sexual objects. However in women's magazines women get to be in the position of power. Looking at bodies displayed expressly for them. Men's and women's magazines, in this sense, really are different.

The fact that women are assumed to be the objects not just in men's magazines but in women's magazines too shows just how prevalent this issue is. But the fact that women in women's magazines are figured, quietly but definitely, not just as objects, but as objectifiers, makes it a bit different.

Don't get me wrong I think they can be harmful but just on a different scale and yanno Rome was not built in a day. I would love to see more diversity in women's magazines as that would be a start towards something more positive. Having all different role models showing that all women are beautiful. Showing strong women of all different cultures, body types, hair types, colors etc. I know there has been a bit of a move in that direction but really there is a long way to go.

There is a freedom in the ability to express ourselves the way we want I agree. But when one is objectified to get ahead and when one's physical assets determine whether or not one's achievements will be recognized then sexual liberation becomes sexual subjugation.

As women we deserve better than to be enslaved by our sexuality. We are so much more than our physical appearance.




redwood66 said:
momhappy|1473702074|4075569 said:
^Yes! That's what I was trying to say, but as usual, you said it better than I could ever have, redwood =)
:wavey:

The irony that this is a diamond and jewelry forum is not lost on me either. ;))
And redwood (and momhappy) nice try but I don't see the (real) connection. :?: I don't find it demeaning or self punishing to enjoy diamonds and sharing some free time with my girlfriends here discussing issues that interest us.
Yes it is a jewelry forum and I enjoy diamonds and intelligent discussion. And that is relevant how?
 

redwood66

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Missy I understand what you are saying. But I was speaking to the point that we should get rid of pageants as suggested in this thread. It is a noble undertaking to attempt to lessen objectifying women because society as a whole does it. We do need to help our young women to see that their value is in their character and inner beauty. We should all do that at every possible chance.

And it is apples to apples if you are projecting morality onto others. No matter the subject - its part of that whole choice thing. If the discussion were human trafficking then it is a different issue all together. We have different points of view and all are valid in our own eyes.
 

CJ2008

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Archaic is a good word to describe what they are.

And yes to everything else you said missy.

Change has to start somewhere...just because something exists that makes tons of $ or that OTHER things exist in the same line (e.g., magazines) doesn't mean that we should just throw our hands up in the air and do nothing.

All the OTHER things are more subtle.

Beauty Pageants are explicitly judging and giving prizes to women based on beauty - and like you said, a very narrow idea of beauty.

Archaic.

ETA: redwood - I feel like, based on what we know, we should *want* to get rid of beauty pageants. We should *want* to stop these messages. Beauty Pageants is an "easy" target because it's so...obvious.

Yet, I "get" that there's a judgment in that.
 

redwood66

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By that reasoning we should "want" to get rid of a lot of things - pornography and prostitution being the most objectionable in my mind.
 

momhappy

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And again, I don't necessarily disagree with some of what has been posted and sure, we should start somewhere. However, I don't feel comfortable saying that since we should stop objectifying women, we should start with pageants. If others want to take on that cause, rock on, but until I decide to quit participating in the beauty industry, I'm not taking a stand against beauty pageants.
 

monarch64

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redwood66|1473711681|4075621 said:
By that reasoning we should "want" to get rid of a lot of things - pornography and prostitution being the most objectionable in my mind.
What do you think some of these pageant contestants do to make a living when they don't go on to more "reputable" professions? :lol:
 

redwood66

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monarch64|1473715290|4075638 said:
redwood66|1473711681|4075621 said:
By that reasoning we should "want" to get rid of a lot of things - pornography and prostitution being the most objectionable in my mind.
What do you think some of these pageant contestants do to make a living when they don't go on to more "reputable" professions? :lol:
I know you are kidding. :shock:
 

monarch64

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redwood66|1473715436|4075641 said:
monarch64|1473715290|4075638 said:
redwood66|1473711681|4075621 said:
By that reasoning we should "want" to get rid of a lot of things - pornography and prostitution being the most objectionable in my mind.
What do you think some of these pageant contestants do to make a living when they don't go on to more "reputable" professions? :lol:
I know you are kidding. :shock:
Redwood, you are a woman of the world. You cannot be that naïve. Google "pageant queens turned prostitutes" or similar.
Exploit someone throughout their youth, why on Earth would they not continue to put themselves in the same positions?
 
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