Baby sleep training

[monkeyprincess]

AMC, thanks for starting this thread. It's very informative. I'm really no help, but you have my empathy.

Reading this, I realize how crazy unscheduled we really are. Ev is seemingly incapable of taking regular naps. He catnaps throughout the day (maybe 4 short naps), and we can't seem to get him to sleep longer than 30 minute stretches during the day. A lot of it is out of my control because he is at daycare 5 days a week. He usually goes to bed anywhere from 7-9 at night, and then he wakes up between 2-4 for a bottle, and usually goes back to sleep until 6-7. I guess that is not THAT bad, but I envy those of you with regular schedules. He throws a fit if we put him in the crib before he is sound asleep (so we haven't fought that battle yet), however, he can sometimes settle himself if he wakes up during the night. I'm afraid we're going to be in for some trouble in a few months when he is no longer sleeping in the woombie.

 

[amc80]

AMC, thanks for starting this thread. It's very informative. I'm really no help, but you have my empathy.

Reading this, I realize how crazy unscheduled we really are. Ev is seemingly incapable of taking regular naps. He catnaps throughout the day (maybe 4 short naps), and we can't seem to get him to sleep longer than 30 minute stretches during the day. A lot of it is out of my control because he is at daycare 5 days a week. He usually goes to bed anywhere from 7-9 at night, and then he wakes up between 2-4 for a bottle, and usually goes back to sleep until 6-7. I guess that is not THAT bad, but I envy those of you with regular schedules. He throws a fit if we put him in the crib before he is sound asleep (so we haven't fought that battle yet), however, he can sometimes settle himself if he wakes up during the night. I'm afraid we're going to be in for some trouble in a few months when he is no longer sleeping in the woombie.

Glad I'm not alone

B is in daycare as well, so it's hard for him to be on a strict schedule. Some days he will take 2-3 longer naps, other days (like yesterday) it was 3 short naps.

The only good news from last night is that he woke up around 4 or 5 and again around 6 and each time put himself back to sleep. I'm going to be researching today to decide on a method. I'm leaning towards the 5/10/15/15/etc minute soothing thingy. Sorry, that's so technical, I'm freaking tired.

 

[Haven]

Another sympathy and hugs post from me. I'm terrified of the developmental milestone that is going to throw B's great sleeping off. He'll be four months old on the 18th, and right now he's sleeping well but I know it's probably not going to last. Bookmarking this thread for when that dreaded time arrives. We haven't had to do any sleep training yet, but B is still sleeping in a Halo Sleep Sack with one arm out, and just yesterday he started to try rolling from back to belly. NOT YET!!!! I am so not ready to have to take him out of the sleep sack.

We're also without a regular schedule. I'm home with B until August, and I've just been following his lead in terms of when he wants to nap throughout the day. I've been tracking his sleep on the Total Baby app so I can see trends, but he definitely doesn't have a schedule. He still takes three to four naps a day, but they're anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours long. He sleeps more when we're out and about and I'm wearing him, of course.

Okay, I'm scaring myself just writing this post. I so hope your babes start sleeping better, mamas.

Kunzite--I laughed so hard when I read your post about tipping E over once he's asleep. Too funny.

 

[amc80]

I wanted to share this link-

http://noobmommy.com/2008/11/to-ferberize-or-not-to-ferberize.html

It explains CIO in a pretty funny way.

 

[lliang_chi]

AMC, I suggest reading Harvey Karp's book Happiest Baby Guide to Great Sleep. It's a pretty concise book that gives you some strategies on sleep training. Granted I skipped all the infant parts since I was reading it when E was already almost 1 yr old. But check it out.

Sounds like you're going to try the same "CIO" method I used: 3 mins/5mins/7mins/10mins/15/15/15/... Also didn't give him anything for the MOTN wakes during the "CIO" training. Just verbal reassurance. No patting, no shushing, no picking up. Good luck on Thursday. Steel yourselves in for a lot of hysterics and screaming from him. But remember he's learning and it WILL get better. Just give it 3-4 days. Also trade off between nights you take one night your DH take the other. And the person who's "off duty" either sleeps in a room without the baby monitor, or the on duty parent takes the monitor with him/her while counting down. This gives one of you a decent night's sleep.

Also if B likes remotes, give him a remote to go to sleep with. It doesn't have to be a blankie or soft toy. I'd just remove the batteries from the remote though.

MP, Ev is still pretty young. And you might be OK when he's old enough to sleep on his tummy. THat's how Ethan puts himself back to sleep. So you might not be in a bad spot. Honestly some parents are lucky enough to get babies that are angel sleepers. For the rest of us, I think it's really when the parents are ready for training. The babies can handle it.

Lastly, Ethan still doesn't SLEEP through the night. He wakes around 5:30-5:45AM but he fusses and cries,then goes back to sleep until 6:15-6:30 when we get up for the day. So it's not too bad. I still wake up, but I do go back to sleep. I do'nt have to get out of bed anymore which is quite nice.

 

[JGator]

K is almost 6 months old. She slept pretty well up until 4 months - she went to bed at 10 or 11pm and woke up at 7am. Now, she goes to bed between 9-930pm and falls asleep drinking her bottle, and then is transferred to the crib asleep. She will kick a bit but ultimately settles herself down sometimes with a hand in her mouth. Recently, she has been sleeping until 2/3/4am and then getting up to eat 4 oz or less and then she goes back to sleep until 7amish. I would like to not have to wake up at 2/3/4am. Last night, she woke up at 5am instead of the 2-4am early wake-up. I could do 5am regularly as that would be almost an 8 hour stretch for her, but I just never know when she's going to sleep in. We have not done CIO or anything. My DH says he wants to, but I think she's really hungry as she does not drink that much during the day and only gets 3tbs of rice cereal one time per day. With the nanny, she takes 2 naps a day, but often those are in the nanny's arms for the entire time! She only sleeps in her crib at night. Lately, she has been squirming around and kicking herself onto one side with 1 foot between the slats of the crib. She seems to be comfortable like that. Ie, if we move her back to the middle of the crib, she kicks and squirms until one foot is in between the slats again. I try to wait a few mins before going in to feed her in the middle of the night, but usually she doesn't self soothe back to sleep so I will end up feeding her within 5-10 mins of her first cries.

 

[amc80]

Also if B likes remotes, give him a remote to go to sleep with. It doesn't have to be a blankie or soft toy. I'd just remove the batteries from the remote though.

Hmm, that's actually a great idea. We already have one just for him (we had a spare) with the batteries out.

Also trade off between nights you take one night your DH take the other.

I wish we could do this. Unfortunately, DH is working graveyard so it's just me

 

[geri]

AMC, MP and others - I hope you don't mind me chiming in as a mother of a now 2 year old. I have been there and it is really hard but I promise it does get better. 4 months and around 8 months (when she started crawling and standing up) were the worst for us sleep wise. C was waking multiple times a night and often up for hours at a time. After walking her around the house in the baby bjorn at 3 and 4 in the morning to stop her screaming I called in a baby sleep expert at 9 months because I was beside myself and knew I needed to do something about it. In our case, some minor adjustments to her sleep routine made a massive difference. I've set out the routine she gave us below, which is very similar to what Kunzite suggested, but the other thing that made a huge difference was putting her to sleep on her stomach and tucking her in tightly with a sheet. I think this just stopped her jumping straight to her feet when she woke up which then made it harder for her to go back to sleep. She slept through from the first night without a peep, although the days were harder work. Here is the routine:

7-7.30 milk
7.30 - 8 - breakfast
9ish - morning tea
9.30 - 10.30 - sleep (1 and a half to 2 and a half hours)
11.30 - 12 - milk
12-1 - lunch
2-3pm -sleep (1 and a half to 2 and a half hours)
3.30 to 4- afternoon tea
5.30 - 6 - dinner
6-6.30 bath
6.30 - 7 - milk
7-7.30 – sleep

We jiggled the routine a bit depending on when she woke up and how long her naps were but aimed for a general uptime of 3-3 and a half hours. Until this point she had never slept more then 40 minutes at a time during the day so there was some crying involved in fixing the day sleeps but within a few days we noticed a big difference.

Since then, bar the occasional blip when she is sick or something, she generally goes to sleep with no fuss, has a decent day sleep and sleeps through the night. I know it doesn't seem like it now but you will get there! I hope things improve soon!

 

[fieryred33143]

I think the answer is with his day schedule, not his night schedule. At his age, his naps should be more consistent. I know it's hard being that he is in daycare but could you work with them to get him on more of a schedule?

 

[lliang_chi]

AMC and MP, day cares should work with you on your baby's schedule for naps. Just write it down on their sheet that they need to take a nap at X time. Ethan would do only 1 long nap at day care for the longest time. I guess he'd get so caught up in playing with the other kids he didn't want to sleep. On the weekends he used to do 2 naps, but he's now starting to just 1 nap, so we're in for another transition. But back when he was consistently doing 2 naps on the weekends, his schedule looked a lot like Geri's. Day care schedule looks like

• 
  6:15AM Wake (a little bit of water from bottle)
  6:30AM Breakfast @ home (eggs, fruit & milk)
  8AM 2nd Breakfast (usually just cereal or something & milk)
  9:30AM Snack (fruit & milk)
  11:30AM Lunch & milk
  12PM-2PM Nap (sometimes would go 3 hours, those days he typically slept the best at night)
  3PM snack (crackers/goldfish/similar with water)
  6PM snack/dinner (leftover from night before & milk)
  7:30PM Bedtime

AMC did you try giving B a remote to go to bed with last night? I also would try letting B sleep on his tummy. I find Ethan sleeps better when he's on his tummy.

 

[amc80]

I think the answer is with his day schedule, not his night schedule. At his age, his naps should be more consistent. I know it's hard being that he is in daycare but could you work with them to get him on more of a schedule?

AMC and MP, day cares should work with you on your baby's schedule for naps.

I know, I know...but I guess I just feel like that's a lot to ask of them. But maybe it's normal to ask?

AMC did you try giving B a remote to go to bed with last night? I also would try letting B sleep on his tummy. I find Ethan sleeps better when he's on his tummy.

I didn't, totally forgot. I put him on his back and he immediately rolls to his tummy and sleeps like that all night (face down, grrr). Definitely a tummy sleeper.


Last night was better. He was falling asleep while I gave him his bottle and I made sure he was still awake when I put him in his crib. He rolled over and fell asleep. That was at 7:45. He woke up, right on time, at 11:45. He fell back asleep after maybe 2-3 minutes of fussing. Yay! He woke up again around 12:30 and this time wasn't going back to sleep. I gave him water and he was sleeping within minutes. Repeat this same thing at about 3 (I think, can't really remember). He stirred again at 5 and well back asleep, and then slept until it was time for him to get up around 7:30. Obviously I'm not loving that he's still waking up but it is progress that he's falling back asleep so easily. I used to actually feed him a bottle which meant I was up for 15 minutes or so...now it's maybe 5. I'm excited to start ferberizing him...even though I'm sure I won't feel that way after night #1.

 

[Kunzite]

amc, that isn't too much to ask at all! My daycare ladies knew exactly when I wanted them to put O down for a nap... not that it did much good! He napped horribly at daycare, but the ladies tried really hard to keep things the way I wanted. I would just tell them to put him down 2.75 hours after the last time he woke up, that should be plenty easy to follow.

Jgator, I'm scared for you! I would be way more worried about her naps than that one night waking. Also, I want to add that she should be getting 11-12 hours of night sleep to be well rested. Sleep is very circular, she needs to be well rested in order to sleep well.

And I want to give hugs to everyone! Some kids are just difficult. E only took two 40 minute naps yesterday He woke from his second nap at 2:15! That's exactly how he ends up going 4 hours before bedtime!

 

[lliang_chi]

AMC, It's definitely not unusual for parents to have schedules for their babies, so I'd just write or ask them to TRY to put B down 3 hrs after he wakes up. Once he gets into a routine, things might go easily. He also might not sleep well @ daycare (Ethan slept poorly when he was taking more naps), but at least he's kinda getting a routine in place. Once he gets older and moves to 1 nap, he'll be out like a light.

Kunzite, yikes E definitely sounds like he has a mind of his own! Ethan definitely had those days when his naps were only 45mins or less. They sucked.

JGator, how has K taken to rice cereal and solids? If she likes it, maybe you can think about giving her more food. Or adding purees to the mix. Also try doing a dream feed if she's not getting enough calories during the day. Ethan was doing a dream feed until he was 10 months old, because I felt he wasn't getting enough calories to take him to the morning. And I'd rather feed him before goign to bed and sleepign the whole night through than waking up at 4AM and giving him a bottle. We eventually phased out the dreamfeed, but first subbing water then just dropping entirely.

 

[fieryred33143]

Amc completely normal to ask. I wouldn't feel bad about it for one second! It seems to me that you are doing all you can to get him to sleep at night. At that age their night time schedule is still very much affected by their daytime routine so I would absolutely ask.

 

[amc80]

Thanks for the encouragement- I will talk to them. FYI this was his schedule today.

Went to sleep at 7:45pm last night
Woke up at 7:30am (still sleeping, I had to wake him)...so just about 12 hours of sleep with four wake ups (2 where he didn't go back to sleep himself)...maybe awake for 10-15 minutes total during the night
Awake - 7:30-9:30 (2h)
Sleep - 9:30-10:05 (35m)
Awake - 10:05-11:40 (1h35m)
Sleep 11:40-12:25 (45m)
Awake - 12:25-3:25 (3h)
Sleep 3:25-4:45 (1h20m)
Awake - 4:45-7:45 (3h)
Asleep for the night at 7:45

So he was napping for a total of 2h40m today and slept for 11h45m last night (well, minus 10 minutes or so when he was awake)...so 14h25m of sleep in 24 hours.

That seems about right, doesn't it? I'm curious to see how he sleeps tonight since his naps were so much better today.

 

[mayerling]

Thanks for the encouragement- I will talk to them. FYI this was his schedule today.

Went to sleep at 7:45pm last night
Woke up at 7:30am (still sleeping, I had to wake him)...so just about 12 hours of sleep with four wake ups (2 where he didn't go back to sleep himself)...maybe awake for 10-15 minutes total during the night
Awake - 7:30-9:30 (2h)
Sleep - 9:30-10:05 (35m)
Awake - 10:05-11:40 (1h35m)
Sleep 11:40-12:25 (45m)
Awake - 12:25-3:25 (3h)
Sleep 3:25-4:45 (1h20m)
Awake - 4:45-7:45 (3h)
Asleep for the night at 7:45

So he was napping for a total of 2h40m today and slept for 11h45m last night (well, minus 10 minutes or so when he was awake)...so 14h25m of sleep in 24 hours.

That seems about right, doesn't it? I'm curious to see how he sleeps tonight since his naps were so much better today.

AMC, his routine seems a bit wonky. It's not so much the short naps (N is a notorious catnapper) as the fact that there's no consistency with respect to awake times (2h awake, then 1h35', then 3h, then another 3h). Maybe you could shift things a bit to get more consistent awake times and that might help him take proper naps.

 

[megumic]

Hmmm I think he needs longer naps. C will do anywhere from 2-3 naps per day of roughly 1-3 hours each. But, because baby sleep cycles are in and out and in and out and in and out, maybe during the nap he is coming out of sleep but not done sleeping but can't get himself back to sleep so he wakes. KWIM? I did notice that after sleep training the naps did tend to lengthen a bit, so maybe that's it...???

 

[lliang_chi]

Can you post what his schedule is during the weekend too?

B's 8 months or so, right? My guess is that B's trying to move to 2 naps per day. Hence he had that short nap in the morning, then the longer nap during a few hours later. I agree with Mayer, not to freak out with the short naps too much. Ethan took short naps himself, 45 mins. But once he got to 2 naps a day he was doing 1hr+ naps.

I'd say to collect a few day's worth of nap schedules, and maybe try for a late-ish morning nap (like 9:30-10AM), an a late-ish afternoon (3PM). You can adjust his nap times by 10 mins each direction.

 

[fieryred33143]

Curious about the weekend schedule too. How did he do last night?

At first glance, I wonder if they could skip the 9:30 nap and put him down at 10 instead so he sleeps until noon? It seems like he takes a cat nap only to be tired 1.5 hours later.

P.S. kids are crazy Predictable. But crazy

 

[mayerling]

AMC, how did the first night of ferberizing go?

 

[amc80]

Sorry for the delayed response. I didn't go to work yesterday so I wasn't in front of a computer to respond.

Hmmm I think he needs longer naps. C will do anywhere from 2-3 naps per day of roughly 1-3 hours each. But, because baby sleep cycles are in and out and in and out and in and out, maybe during the nap he is coming out of sleep but not done sleeping but can't get himself back to sleep so he wakes. KWIM? I did notice that after sleep training the naps did tend to lengthen a bit, so maybe that's it...???

I agree! I need to figure out how to make that happen. Yesterday, his schedule was similar in that he had two shortish naps with a very short (30m) awake period in between.

Can you post what his schedule is during the weekend too?

B's 8 months or so, right? My guess is that B's trying to move to 2 naps per day. Hence he had that short nap in the morning, then the longer nap during a few hours later. I agree with Mayer, not to freak out with the short naps too much. Ethan took short naps himself, 45 mins. But once he got to 2 naps a day he was doing 1hr+ naps.

I'd say to collect a few day's worth of nap schedules, and maybe try for a late-ish morning nap (like 9:30-10AM), an a late-ish afternoon (3PM). You can adjust his nap times by 10 mins each direction.

Yes, 8 months. On the weekends he will wake up around 7, be awake for a bit...as soon as he gets tired I put him in bed with me with a bottle and we go back to sleep for a couple of hours. So he does get a nice morning nap, say from 8-10. He might take one more nap around 11 (30-45 minutes) or stay up a bit longer and take a longer afternoon nap. His weekend schedule is definitely better in terms of nap length.

At first glance, I wonder if they could skip the 9:30 nap and put him down at 10 instead so he sleeps until noon? It seems like he takes a cat nap only to be tired 1.5 hours later.

Funny you say that, I'm watching him at day care and he just went down for a nap...at 9:30. I'm curious to see how long he sleeps. I think a good place to start would be to ask daycare to keep him awake until 10 if possible...that's a great suggestion.

AMC, how did the first night of ferberizing go?

It didn't! I was all prepared to but then life happened. I put him down a bit earlier than normal (around 7:30). He fell asleep and then woke up fussing. I waited a few minutes and checked on him, only to find that he had thrown up everywhere. Two containers of baby food and 6oz of formula all over the crib, himself, etc. Of course I had just changed his sheets which meant he had no clean ones. I cleaned him up and put him in the swing while I did laundry. He slept there and I was able to transfer him (asleep) to his crib around 10 or so. He skipped his usual midnight wakeup (Yay!) and slept until about 1:30. I gave him his water and he went back to sleep. The funny thing is he woke up around 5, cried, sat up, saw his water bottle, drank for a minute and went back to sleep. So I guess I will be keeping a bottle in the crib from now on Woke up for good around 7. I light of pukefest 2013 I decided to wait a night until we started the training.

 

[amc80]

B just woke up, so I think he slept for about 1.5 hours...better...

 

[mayerling]

B just woke up, so I think he slept for about 1.5 hours...better...

You mean he woke up from his nap? What time did he wake up for the day and what time did he go down for a nap?

 

[amc80]

B just woke up, so I think he slept for about 1.5 hours...better...

You mean he woke up from his nap? What time did he wake up for the day and what time did he go down for a nap?

Yes. He woke up at about 6:45 and wen down for a nap around 9:15-9:30.

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Just wanted to offer hugs. Eloise is 8 months and wakes up 2-3 times each night... On a rare occasion there will be only one wake-up. And usually the MOTN wakeup lasts a good 45 minutes.

We did CIO when she was 5 months old and it worked. And then at some point we regressed... and started going to her again when she fussed... and now... well...

I always feel like there's a reason to postpone sleep training. She's on the verge of cutting teeth, for example. Or maybe she's been extra gassy and uncomfortable throughout the day. Or she's started standing in her crib and doesn't quite know how to get back down to sitting/lying down. I know from experience that she will scream bloody murder for over an hour. Not just cry, but scream, choke, scream, spit up, scream, etc, until her voice is raspy. I am weak. I can't do it. Not sure how I did it before.

Anyway, this thread is really informative and helpful. I like reading everyone else's nap schedules and tips on getting little ones to sleep. Eventually we might try sleep training again. Getting 8 hours would be glorious!

 

[dani13]

AMC, you are DEF not alone! B's schedule looks alot like L's at this point. The only difference is that L only wakes up about once a night, but we have a harder time getting him to sleep. Boy is the KING of 30-40 minute naps, and its so annoying. Can't get anything done around here!!!! So even though he gets tired and takes his naps frequently (every 2-3 hrs), they are super short!!! I'll be watching this thread closely, thanks for starting it!!!

 

[amc80]

Okay, an update. We started ferberizing on Friday night. Sort of. We did it at bedtime and he was not happy. I think we were on our second 15 minutes (5,10,15,15) when he finally passed out. I honestly can't remember the details of that night, other than I did end up giving him a bottle at some point. Fuzzy. Same for Saturday night. Last night, same deal...although it didn't take as long for him to go to sleep. I was JUST going into his room after the first 15 minute stretch and he fell asleep. And slept and slept. He woke up around 1:45 (finally slept through the midnight waking, yay!), cried for a few minute and went back to sleep. Same thing at about 5am but was up for less than a minute. In summary, I didn't have to actually get my butt out of bed last night. Not sure if it was a fluke or what but it sure was nice. I'm very interested to see how tonight goes.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

amc, progress! It sounds like he's really learning to soothe himself back to sleep.

How were the daytime naps this weekend? I agree with Fiery and LC that it sounds like he's moving from 3 naps to 2 naps. It's kind of wonky because most babies have a very short third nap that they end up dropping, but B's long nap is his third nap (probably due to shorter naps earlier in the day). With 2 naps, K had a 2/3/4 schedule (the number of hours between naps). Her schedule was usually this:

7am - wakeup
9am - first nap
10:30 - wake up
1:30 - second nap
3:30 - wakeup
7:30 - bed

Other moms in my mom group had a 3/3/3 schedule that worked well, it just depends on the kid. Since B is learning to self-soothe, you could try leaving him when he wakes up from the short morning nap. When K was on a 2-nap schedule she would wake in the middle of her afternoon nap. We're on 1 nap now, but she still wakes in the middle of it and has to soothe herself back to sleep.

I'm sure your daycare will work with you. K was always a bad daycare napper and her transition to 2 naps (and then 1 nap) happened at daycare first. Still, our daycare provider worked with us on the napping because she knows I'm protective (read: crazy) about it.

Also, it's good that you're going through this now because you'll likely keep using these methods down the road. K is 14 months and is teething like crazy...but she's also getting smarter and knows how to draw me in to soothe her. So I'm always trying to figure out if she's really in pain or if she's manipulating me. And since some of her teeth are still just below the gums, I always give in and soothe. So I'm afraid I may be sleep training again soon.

 

[amc80]

NEL, you know, his naps weren't great. Saturday is far too long ago to remember (ha), but yesterday I think the only time he actually napped was in the car. So maybe 45 minutes, 45 minutes, and 20 minutes (oh, then I transferred him when we got home...he woke up and then slept for another 30 minutes or so). I am going to talk to daycare about not getting him up after he first fusses.

Who knew sleep could be so difficult! If you're tired, sleep! Sheesh.

 

[megumic]

Okay, an update. We started ferberizing on Friday night. Sort of. We did it at bedtime and he was not happy. I think we were on our second 15 minutes (5,10,15,15) when he finally passed out. I honestly can't remember the details of that night, other than I did end up giving him a bottle at some point. Fuzzy. Same for Saturday night. Last night, same deal...although it didn't take as long for him to go to sleep. I was JUST going into his room after the first 15 minute stretch and he fell asleep. And slept and slept. He woke up around 1:45 (finally slept through the midnight waking, yay!), cried for a few minute and went back to sleep. Same thing at about 5am but was up for less than a minute. In summary, I didn't have to actually get my butt out of bed last night. Not sure if it was a fluke or what but it sure was nice. I'm very interested to see how tonight goes.

Progress indeed! Keep it up!