Baby sleep training

[amc80]

B just turned 8 months and his sleep is not great. He had a wonderful week in late February where he slept through the night. I thought we were home free...apparently not. B is now getting up 2-3 times a night. He gets his bath at 7 to start the bedtime process. He is usually asleep by 8. Around 9 he will wake up screaming. Not crying, screaming. I will usually rock him for a few minutes and then he will go back to sleep. This might repeat a time or two more and he will be down for good by 10. Some nights im lucky and when he goes down at 8 he stays asleep. Depending on the night, he will wake either one or two more times. He wakes up for good around 7 or so, depending on the day. I've been feeding him at the night wakings (4oz each time). I read up on sleep training and gave it a try last night. I let him cry for 15 minutes before going in. I thought he might be hungry so I offered a bottle, of which he drank maybe an ounce before falling asleep. That tells me that he's probably not hungry. So I'm not sure if he's having trouble transitioning through sleep cycles or wants comfort or what. Oh, when he woke up at 5am this morning I let him cry for 15 minutes. He was just getting himself to sleep when I walked into his room and realized he was poopy, so I had to wake him up anyway.

To summarize (before trying any sort of sleep training):

8pm- crib, awake or asleep depending on the night.
9pm (and maybe 9:30/10/10:30)- wake up screaming. Either rock to sleep or feed 4oz
12am- cry, feed oz
2 and/or 4/5am - cry, feed 4oz
7am- wake up

I'd love any advice you have. He is definitely big and heavy enough to STTN. He can fall asleep just fine in his crib. Should i let him cry longer than 15 minutes? Should I not even offer a bottle (or offer water or watered down formula)? This mama needs some sleep!

 

[lliang_chi]

Hi AMC, oh my goodness you poor mama. We sleep trained Ethan at 11 months but honestly I wish we started earlier. What worked for us was Karp's description of Gradual Extinction:

When Ethan woke up, we'd wait 3 mins. Then go in there and just talk to him briefly, tell him "It's okay, you're just going to sleep. I'm going to be right outside." Then wait 5 mins, and go in and give him his short pep talk. Then 7, then 10, then 15 and every 15 mins after that until he goes to sleep. For me, I found that going into the room got him more worked up, so I ended up talking at him from behind the door so he could hear me but couldn't see me. The 1st night it took Ethan 45 mins. The 2nd night 25 mins, after that <10 mins.

 

[amc80]

So when you went into his room you would talk to him but not touch or pick up? Or is a run on the back ok?

 

[Dandi]

Oh amc, you poor love.

If Oscar is crying I stand at the door and comfort/shush him from there, without him actually seeing me. This often works, as I'm sending the message that he is safe and mummy is here, but if he sees me it fires him up a bit because he thinks I will pick him up. If he is really riled up I will pat him or pick him up, but put him straight back down as soon as he is calm. Sometimes I have to pick him up several times before he is calm enough to go to sleep, just to send the message that he is safe and I'm here, but it is time for sleep and not play.

I was told that if babies are waking in the night and taking a bit of a feed, more of a 'snack', then it's ok to try giving them cooled boiled water instead. The rationale behind this is that they decide there isn't much point waking up if all they are going to get is water, so they go back to sleep. I've not had any experience with that myself, but it might be worth a try?!

How are his daytime naps? I found that putting Oscar back to bed after an hour and 15 minutes of awake time works well for him, plus I think it's good practice for him to learn to put himself to sleep, including if he wakes in the night.

Admittedly Oscar is only 4 months, so I'm sure when he reached some of the developmental milestones that B has, things may change. I'm a total rookie at this but I have found that these things often work, so feel they are worth passing on.

GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[Kunzite]

amc, what is his day sleep schedule? I find E has wake ups like this when he goes too long for his last wake time and becomes overtired right before bed.

 

[amc80]

Admittedly Oscar is only 4 months, so I'm sure when he reached some of the developmental milestones that B has, things may change.

So true! (Well, hopefully not, since it sounds like you have a good sleeper!) B wasn't great before but since he's started sitting up in his crib things have gotten worse.

amc, what is his day sleep schedule? I find E has wake ups like this when he goes too long for his last wake time and becomes overtired right before bed.

As an example, yesterday he had a nice morning and afternoon nap (I think the morning one was 1.5ish hours and the early afternoon nap was about an hour) plus a later nap (from about 4-5pm). Usually he gets in a mini nap around 4 or so.

So last night I tried something new. He woke up at 11:45pm and gave him a bottle with about 2oz of water in it. I picked him up, shushed him a bit to calm him down (maybe 30 seconds total), put him down, gave him the bottle. He drank it for a minute or so and went to sleep. Score. He woke up again around 3. Same thing, back to sleep within a few minutes. At 5am, he cried but fell back asleep on his own within a few minutes. That's what I wish he would do at the other wakings (or, you know, not wake at all!). I think part of the problem is before, he would wake up and still be laying down and fall back to sleep. Now, he wakes up, sits up, and then can't go to sleep as easily. At both 11:45 and 3am when I went in to his room he was sitting up crying. Could all of this just be a developmental thing? Not that his sleep was great before, but at least it was usually just once a night instead of three times....

 

[Kunzite]

I think you have two things going on, a developmental wakeful and his day sleep is awkward because he's likely needing to transition to two naps. At that age most kids have wake times that resemble 2/3/4, 3/3/3, or 3/3/4. So a total of about 9-10 hours awake during the day.

 

[amc80]

I think you have two things going on, a developmental wakeful and his day sleep is awkward because he's likely needing to transition to two naps. At that age most kids have wake times that resemble 2/3/4, 3/3/3, or 3/3/4. So a total of about 9-10 hours awake during the day.

So a possible schedule would be like this?
7am- wake up
10am-12pm - nap
12pm-3pm- awake
3pm-5pm- nap
8pm- bed

I know his naps aren't that long now. He might take one that is two hour, another that is an hour or so, and a 3rd (if at all) that is 30-45 minutes. I would LOVE if he'd take two two-hour naps.

 

[Kunzite]

Not quite, his total nap time should be around 3 hours total so awake at 4 and bed at 7(or 8 if he does okay with a 4 hour stretch).

 

[amc80]

Not quite, his total nap time should be around 3 hours total so awake at 4 and bed at 7(or 8 if he does okay with a 4 hour stretch).

Got it. The 4 hour stretch might be tough....I'd have to adjust things a bit to avoid that. But I see what you're saying.

 

[Kunzite]

Yeah, that's what I meant about E. He struggles with a 4 hour stretch too but also wakes early from his naps so it makes it hard to keep him up until bedtime, he gets overtired, has a bad night, rinse and repeat! M does great with a 4 hour stretch so he's golden even when he only takes 2 hours total in naps a day.

I've found that the key to successful sleep training is making sure the baby is well rested to begin with, so during a stretch when the twins were on good day schedules gradual extinction worked like a charm! If they were struggling during the day it turned into an all night cry-fest! You're lucky that B eats well during the day, I think you'll solve this in no time. The trouble with the twins is that they don't want to eat their bottles during the day (maybe 16oz total!) so they're truly hungry at night.

 

[amc80]

You're lucky that B eats well during the day, I think you'll solve this in no time. The trouble with the twins is that they don't want to eat their bottles during the day (maybe 16oz total!) so they're truly hungry at night.

I sure hope so! Eating definitely isn't a problem....he's now eating two containers (2oz each) of baby food at a time AND a 4-6oz bottle about 30 minutes later...seems like a ton of food at once. I know he doesn't need to eat during the night, it's just a comfort thing...so I will work on his naps and see if that helps. Do you have a recommendation for what to do when he wakes up at night? Water bottle? CIO? Modified CIO?

 

[pancake]

I think that 4 hours of wake time at 8 months is pushing it. I know some babies can do it, but most of those I know really can't. S has only recently started doing 4+ hour stretches and she is 14 months. At 8 months, S was up at 7:30, morning nap at 9:30 for about 1.5 hours, afternoon nap at about 2pm for 2 hours, bedtime was 7pm. My other comment is that an 8pm bedtime for an 8 monther is on the late side - the "window" is apparently 6-8pm but you might try moving his bedtime earlier by increments?

I second Dandi's suggestion of offering water (and it sounds like it might work for you).

 

[amc80]

I think that 4 hours of wake time at 8 months is pushing it. I know some babies can do it, but most of those I know really can't. S has only recently started doing 4+ hour stretches and she is 14 months. At 8 months, S was up at 7:30, morning nap at 9:30 for about 1.5 hours, afternoon nap at about 2pm for 2 hours, bedtime was 7pm. My other comment is that an 8pm bedtime for an 8 monther is on the late side - the "window" is apparently 6-8pm but you might try moving his bedtime earlier by increments?

I second Dandi's suggestion of offering water (and it sounds like it might work for you).

Thanks for the response! 8pm is on the late side...we start bath time at 7 and depending on how it goes he is in bed between 7:30 and 8. Maybe I need to start bath at 6:45? That should get him in bed by 7:30.

 

[lliang_chi]

AMC, like Dani said I just stand in the doorway (hiding behind the door) and talk to him. I did not pick him up, I did not pat his back. When he would see me, it'd just get him more worked up. Now he'll wake, cry, even stand up in the crib crying (we have a video monitor). But he'll eventually sit, then lay back down (still crying), then fall asleep. So the fact that he's sitting doesn't necessarily mean he can't put himself back to sleep.

 

[megumic]

We just sleep trained and it only took us 5 nights for him to STTN. We didn't do any particular known method, I just went with my gut. We did pick up put down Iif he was crying. So when he cried, we would pick him up Until he stopped then put back in crib. We had to constantly lay him back down since he stands in his crib now. In the MOTN we wold go in and pffer comforting words and rub his belly or back. Tried to avoid picking him up. Gradually we lessend the comforting techniques. It took 5 nights for him to stop waking up in the MOTN and two weeks later and he goes to sleep with practically zero assistance It was misery at first, but it worked. The key is consistency which is hard when you're so tired in the MOTN but we are glad to have sleep back.

 

[Kunzite]

You're lucky that B eats well during the day, I think you'll solve this in no time. The trouble with the twins is that they don't want to eat their bottles during the day (maybe 16oz total!) so they're truly hungry at night.

I sure hope so! Eating definitely isn't a problem....he's now eating two containers (2oz each) of baby food at a time AND a 4-6oz bottle about 30 minutes later...seems like a ton of food at once. I know he doesn't need to eat during the night, it's just a comfort thing...so I will work on his naps and see if that helps. Do you have a recommendation for what to do when he wakes up at night? Water bottle? CIO? Modified CIO?

Saw this for 3-2 transition and thought it might help: http://community.babycenter.com/post/a41357029/btcwt_combo_for_7_month_old

I agree with pancake that some kids really struggle with a 4 hour stretch so I'd be inclined to have him in bed and asleep around the 3 hour mark. It really is kid dependent though. E thrives on a 3/3.25/3 schedule while M thrives on a 3/2.75/4 schedule, so I spend a good chunk of my day trying to split the difference so they're ready for bed at the same time.

When you're ready to sleep train I think you'll be fine with whatever you choose as long as you're consistent and take your cues from B. For example, we did gradual extinction with both boys but the checks only worked E up instead of settle him down so he needs a pretty strict CIO. M, on the other hand, responded well to being patted on the booty and needed the checks to help calm him down. If the bottle of water is working for you I'd likely stick with it because it sounds much easier

 

[Kunzite]

AMC, like Dani said I just stand in the doorway (hiding behind the door) and talk to him. I did not pick him up, I did not pat his back. When he would see me, it'd just get him more worked up. Now he'll wake, cry, even stand up in the crib crying (we have a video monitor). But he'll eventually sit, then lay back down (still crying), then fall asleep. So the fact that he's sitting doesn't necessarily mean he can't put himself back to sleep.

Awwww, this is what E does too! Except half the time he falls asleep sitting up! Poor monkey, once I'm sure he's asleep I'll go tip him over

 

[amc80]

A big thanks to everyone! Tonight should be interesting. He slept for a grand total of about 2 hours all day, divided into three naps. He's super tired right now and fighting bedtime. I bathed him early and I think he will be falling asleep any minute...it's 7:30.

Meg, I'm glad to know it worked so quickly for you, especially since our kiddos are the same age. B is also standing in his crib (thank goodness we lowered the mattress to the lowest setting this past weekend!) which is just so sad and pathetic.

I was thinking, the nice part about offering water in the middle of the night is I can use that same bottle for the whole night...that's two fewer bottle to wash. Score! ha.

There are so many methods it's hard to know what to try. I'm pretty sure CIO won't work because his stamina is better than nine, especially at 2am. Plus it is just so sad. I think I will continue with the water for the next week or so and see how that goes. Or if I do the shushing and back patting first and then water if that doesn't work, is that just training him to cry more for the bottle??

 

[lliang_chi]

Awwww, this is what E does too! Except half the time he falls asleep sitting up! Poor monkey, once I'm sure he's asleep I'll go tip him over

OMG Kunzite, I literally laughed when I read this. Silly monkey.

AMC, does B have a toy or blankie or stuffed animal he likes? Ethan has a duck puppet I've taken to call his Snuggle Duck because he loves rubbing his face with it. It's what makes him lie back down to go back to sleep. He wants to rub his face in Snuggle Duck so he falls back asleep.

Good luck tonight. It seems like offering water seems to be a good comfort for B. And I totally leave Ethan's bottle of water in his room from day to day. The only bottle he still gets is a bottle of water in the AM when he first wakes up. He drinks a few oz, then we put it down and use it the next day.

Oh and for our CIO, (where we went at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 15, 15, ....) I had my smartphone to count down the mins, and took notes of his behavior (observed from video monitor, and heard from crying) to busy myself until the timer went off. DH played xBox.

And lastly, start the sleep training on the weekend! Thursday or Friday night. That way if you'll be able to nap during the day if he keeps you up all night. And TBH, it only took Ethan 3 nights. The first night was the worst, but some kiddos it's the 2nd night that's harder. But after the first 3 nights it's MUCH MUCH easier.

 

[Rosebloom]

Sorry to jump in - just wanted to add some sympathy! Not sleeping is so hard. Dust for a wonderful sleep tonight for your whole family.

I agree that you might want to try an earlier bedtime. My little one is 12 mos now but both he and his older brother did best going to bed by 6:30pm once they dropped the third nap (and to help ease the transition). It's counterintuitive but it does really seem that the more sleep they get the better they sleep. I haven't done sleep training so sadly I'm no help there. Hang in there! The next few months are tough with all the developmental milestones and molars but once they master walking it seems like they sleep much better.

 

[amc80]

LC- The only things B truly loves are our iPhones and the TV remote, ha. I wish there were something he latched on to, but no. Doesn't even use a paci. As for waiting until a weekend- no need, we've got puppies! Which means I can just feed them while waiting for B to do his thing. Sleep, what's sleep?

 

[amc80]

Sorry to jump in - just wanted to add some sympathy! Not sleeping is so hard. Dust for a wonderful sleep tonight for your whole family.

I agree that you might want to try an earlier bedtime. My little one is 12 mos now but both he and his older brother did best going to bed by 6:30pm once they dropped the third nap (and to help ease the transition). It's counterintuitive but it does really seem that the more sleep they get the better they sleep. I haven't done sleep training so sadly I'm no help there. Hang in there! The next few months are tough with all the developmental milestones and molars but once they master walking it seems like they sleep much better.

I just don't know how I could get him to sleep much earlier. Right now we've got about an hour and a half between getting home and bath time. Because DH works nights, it's the only time the three of us really see each other all day. Luckily he's switching to day shift in a few weeks so maybe then I can try an earlier bedtime.

 

[amc80]

Awwww, this is what E does too! Except half the time he falls asleep sitting up! Poor monkey, once I'm sure he's asleep I'll go tip him over

That's hilarious. It's amazing where babies fall asleep. B falls asleep in his jumperoo. That kid will jump for an hour straight.

 

[amc80]

It's 8:50 and B just woke up crying (and sitting). I l let him go and after about 5 minutes he's laying down asleep. Dear B, please remember this skill in 3 hours when you wake up again. Kthanks.

 

[monarch64]

Hi AMC, I am late to this party but wanted to chime in with my experience, which is basically that we have NOT sleep-trained intentionally. So this is what a typically 24 hours looks like:

8:30-9:00 p.m.--bathtime, pajamas, bottle, storytime, sleep
12:30 a.m.--wake up crying, one of us goes down the hall and gives her a pre-made 4 oz bottle. We've tried straight formula, and diluted formula, and just water. She will NOT have anything to do with the plain water.
2:30 a.m.--wake up crying. repeat bottle process.
7:00 a.m.--breakfast bottle--she has actually slept 4.5 hrs straight. Diaper change.
9:00 a.m.--"snack" bottle--diaper change. Goes back to sleep or plays.
10:30 a.m.--up for the day. change diaper, "brunch" of baby food, put clothes on, play time, etc.
1:30 p.m.--another baby food feeding, plus 4 oz bottle of formula, play time.
2:30 p.m.--nap for 45 minutes.
3:15 p.m.--bottle, play time until around
5:00 p.m.--baby food, then bottle, then nap.
6:30 p.m.--wake up crying and grumpier than hell (I always wake up grumpy when I nap in the evening myself), bottle, baby food, play time.
8:30 p.m.--full circle.

I should call "play time" something else, like "learning how mommy and daddy get everything done around the house!

She's 10.5 months old now. We aren't super pleased with still having to get up twice during the night, but this is the way it's worked out with my work schedule the past 7-8 months. I've gone to part time hours as of two weeks ago, and don't know if much will change, but it would be nice to have her STTN at this point. Following this thread with interest. Thanks for posting it!

 

[mayerling]

N is on a 3/3.5/4 schedule at the moment. I realise that's considered to be a long awake window but he's always had longer awake windows than other babies. Naps are usually 1 hour and 15 mins in the morning and 45 mins in the afternoon. Bedtime is at 8 (the thing about 8 being a late bedtime I think is only an issue if you live somewhere with no daylight savings - before daylight savings kicked in he would sleep at 7pm and wake up at 6am, now he sleeps at 8pm and wakes up at 7am; I didn't shift his times - the clock just gives a different time).

At the moment, he will sleep for 10 hours straight and take a paci for another hour about 5 nights out of 7. We didn't sleep train. At 4.5 months he refused to be rocked and we thought we'd try to sleep train but he surprised us by falling asleep on his own. At 9 months he rolled over and we decided to stop swaddling, and he surprised us by not minding at all. I've come to the realisation that he will do things when he's good and ready and since I've always been so averse to hearing him cry, I just muster up my patience and keep going.

 

[megumic]

AMC I would eliminate the bottle entirely. The goal here is for B to fall asleep on his own without any crutches. Since babies go in and out in and out of sleep cycles all night long, that is why they wake up so often. It's when they fall asleep say in our arms or with a bottle/boob in the mouth that when they wake up and it's gone they're like "WTF I fell asleep with it and now it's gone this is BS and I want it back so I can fall back to sleep!"

So, unless you want to get up to give him water at night, I'd say ditch the bottle entirely. Even pacifiers, loveys, music, anything that you have to DO to help baby fall asleep defeats the purpose of sleep training.

Sleep training did work for us, but like I said, consistency is key. We really really were firm for the first 5 nights, which was so hard b/c he woke up 4-6 times each night and cried and cried and we just kept comforting and laying back down. It took an hour each time just about, which is rough when you're bleary eyed. But now, IT WAS SO WORTH IT. To sleep EIGHT HOURS UNINTERRUPTED is like a freaking vacation.

 

[amc80]

OMG last night was terrible. He woke up at 11:45 and didn't fall back asleep for good until about 2:15. He's fall asleep and then wake up screaming 5 minutes later. Time for a real plan of action. I think we will start on Thursday since that is DH's night off.

Meg- I hear you on the bottles. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Rosebloom]

Oh no! So sorry to hear it! I hope you get some much needed rest ASAP.