Baby sleep training

[mayerling]

I know something similar has been discussed before: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/baby-sleep-training-which-books-worked-for-you.149108/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/baby-sleep-training-which-books-worked-for-you.149108/[/URL]

However, I'm not really interested in how to establish schedules or routines. I'm more interested in how to teach my son to sleep on his own. At the moment he needs to be rocked for every sleep and every nap. He's 12 weeks, though, and gaining weight rapidly to the point where my arms, neck, and back, are feeling the strain of carrying him all the time. Also, he's not the sort of child who can fall asleep by himself even in swings. If I let him, he'll just stare or space off and maybe get fussy after a certain amount of time has passed. Does anyone have experience with babies who are completely unable to fall asleep on their own? Any advice would be welcome.

Anyway, he's almost 3 months and I'm beginning to think I need to figure out how to teach him to fall asleep on his own but I'm really not happy with anything that involves leaving him to cry. Any ideas?

 

[Skippy123]

okay this is my personal take on it. In the early months you will do anything to get your baby (or my case babies) to sleep! I had one baby that was pretty good at getting himself to sleep on his own but that took some rocking etc and then 2nd baby couldn't sleep on his own until he hit 1 years old. I feel like that once you rocked and have him sleeping great. Then when they are a little bigger then watch for cues (yawning, rubbing eyes, fussing), then you put them in their cribs and swaddle to get them to sleep. Sometime just patting their backs works. I don't think it is bad if they can't sleep on their own yet. I do think it is bad to wake them but that is my own take on it. Are you swaddling? I think swaddling helps and white noise machines.

 

[pancake]

If you are looking for resources, I would suggest:

http://www.mybabysleepguide.com - it brings together a heck of a lot of information about baby sleep, and it's very balanced and detailed
The No-Cry Sleep Solution - Elizabeth Pantley
The Happiest Baby on the Block - Harvey Karp
The Baby Whisperer - Tracey Hogg

There are many baby sleep "doctrines" out there and they all vary in their details and even in their broad principles. At N's age, if you are willing to tolerate some crying (NOT "controlled crying") then shush-patting or some variation of this is probably the simplest and easiest intervention to implement.

From a non-mother perspective, in my work I see many parents struggling with similar issues and many of the behaviour modification problems with babies boil down to a lack of consistency. You and DH need to sit down, work out exactly what your goals are, what you're willing to let go, what your limits are, and what exact approach you want to take (in detail!). Then you need to be consistent, be consistent, be consistent. You can't judge how successful an intervention is for at LEAST a few days, more likely a week.

Good luck

 

[mayerling]

Pancake, thanks for the link to that blog. It's very useful.

I can't seem to be able to find anything that doesn't involve crying so I suppose I need to hold off on doing anything unless I change my mind at some point.

 

[pancake]

Have you checked out Elizabeth Pantley?

 

[mayerling]

From what I gather she doesn't really give specific advice on how to achieve him going to sleep on his own, just suggestions on how to create sleep plans and routines. But I shouldn't knock it until I try it, right?

 

[pancake]

She offers advice on how to gradually make changes to get towards whatever goal you set. Ditto Pinky McKay ('Parenting With Love').

However, I think it is unrealistic to expect that you can help your baby learn to fall asleep on his own without some degree of crying. You are asking him to make a very big change and there is a significant degree of unfamiliarity (and therefore wtf-scariness) in it.

 

[mayerling]

Yes, I'm beginning to realise this. I just wish he was one of those babies who just nod off no matter what.

 

[pavelover]

Haha Mayerling, don't we all wish we had one of those! I did the whatever it took to get my son to sleep and I mean whatever. He slept in a swing overnight until he was like a year old I think? He needed so much help to sleep that even if the swing ran out of batteries in the middle of the night, he would wake up. There i was bleary eyed in the dark trying not to drop dcell batteries on my foot or his head, lol. I don't recommend that route, although I'm not sure I could have dealt with the alternative either.
We always used the swaddleme blankets and I think they were helpful but maybe hard for us to wean from and so hot in the summer.
I agree with Skippy maybe 12 weeks is too early to expect that, but I think it's great to have a goal in mind.
For future babies I would definitely start my version of CIO earlier than I did ( I think we started trying after a year but didn't get it to reslly work until 18 months. And I was lucky because he wouldnt fuss too long or get so upset he would vomit or anything like that. My personal comfort zone was like 15-20 minutes and usually that was enough.
When you have energy I would experiment a little bit and see how baby reacts. Maybe with the daytime nap first( I find my energy is zapped by evening and I'm desperate to do whatever to get him to sleep.
We used happiest baby on the block stuff when he was younger (even now sometimes), like shush, swaddle, I forget the rest. I think there were at least 4 things?
When my son was born I couldn't stand to leave him cry but now I think I would be inclined ro allow a little more fussing than before. It's really hard thoughmto do that with your firstnI think.
Anyway I hope you find a method that suits you guys!

 

[pancake]

I have one of "those" babies - and believe me, we've still had crying along the way! I don't think babies who never cry/have never cried when going to sleep exist!

Also, however, it's partly a temperament thing - ie. you can't expect a naturally highly-strung baby to be easy to sleep-train or settle. (not to say that N is highly strung, but you get what I mean). Our little one is naturally an extremely laid-back and adaptable bub, and that part is 0% anything that we have done! We have certainly done some things to help her sleep the way we feel is best for everyone, but the ease with which she has made the changes is much more down to her temperament than anything particular that we do.

FWIW, this was our experience:

Dot slept in her bassinet from when she came home from the hospital. We had very few issues getting her to go to sleep in it until about 5 weeks or so, and then from about 5-7ish weeks she was increasingly being held to sleep, and then transferred. As is common, the transfer only worked if she was in a deep sleep - otherwise it was back to square one. At around 7 weeks (I think) we had a long weekend and decided it was time to get her to get used to falling asleep in the bassinet again. We used shush-pat and tag-teamed; my husband was better and dealing with the crying and fussing than I was, so it was important that we were both there. For the first few days it would take up to 25-30 minutes to get her to sleep. We set firm limits on when we would pick her up (level of distress, length of time), and stuck to our guns. Over the following week it gradually got shorter and shorter. I can't remember when we stopped having to shush-pat but I do remember using it to re-settle quite a bit, and we would still use it when she was upset at naptime. I am pretty sure we stopped shushing and patting altogether sometime before 4 months.

Swaddling was completely essential for us - I didn't wean it until 4 1/2 months!

We have had daytime regressions since then for which we have done something that probably most closely resembles PU/PD (basically picking her up, calming her, and putting her back down - but not a systematic thing). But generally, we give her a cuddle, put her in her sleeping bag, give her a kiss and say goodnight, and then leave the room. She definitely sees her cot as a "nice" place.

 

[pavelover]

Pancake how do I sign up? for a mellow baby that is. I definitely think my son was a high needs baby. I was also a stressed out mom who found it very isolating to be home with my son all day. Since he was hard to handle, I stayed home a lot, which just made things worse. I was trying to put him down by 530 for the night! I was ready for the day to be over, lol. I tired pu/pd and pat/shush but I definitely had less patience for it than my dh. He is still much better at helping my son to sleep. I'd say morning is my best time of day, lol.
Anyhow I just wanted to say how impressive your style/methods are. How was your dh on decding what you guys would do/not do? My conversations don't go so well, lol..

 

[mayerling]

Pancake, thanks for going over your story. I guess I need to come to terms with the fact that some crying is not the end of the world.

Pave, I sympathise on the high needs baby.

Having said that, I really don't think that N is a high needs baby. He's a very smiley baby, doesn't really cry except when we're trying to put him to sleep, is quite sociable, etc. It's just that he's such a terrible napper - he's actually not a bad sleeper (once we manage to get him to sleep he'll do at least 3 hours, most often more, and MOTN feedings generally end with me swaddling him and putting him in his crib without any rocking).

 

[MuffDog]

Hi Mayerling - i hope you are doing well.

I started sleep training my son at (gasp) 2 months. We were desperate and I couldn't take the hours and hours of screaming and rocking any longer. He was miserable, I was miserable and we had to do something. He wasn't a cuddly kid - picking him up when he was crying didn't calm him, so it was very very hard.

We looked at a few different options and knew that CIO was probably one of our only options. The upside of it was that most kids respond pretty quickly to the method so it doesn't go on forever. To be honest, the crying involved in CIO was MUCH MUCH less than the hours of screaming we were already enduring.

We went cold turkey - had a good night time routine that started at 6:30 or 7 pm (when he started looking tired with pink eyes (other signs can be arching of the back, disinterest in playing, rubbing eyes etc). Upstairs - bath, massage with lotion, pjs, breast feed (but I would keep him awake while feeding - no getting sleepy etc). Make sure he has a good feed, short story, kiss on the cheek and then put him in his crib fully awake. Turn the light off so it is DARK.

At first I sat on a stool next to the crib very close to him. I was worried he'd feel abandoned etc so I thought this would be better. I said nice things as he cried and would pat his bum every now and then. But I found that his personality didn't like that. Me being in there and touching him often made him cry more. So I left the room.

I would go in after ten minutes and pat him on the bum and give a few shushes and then would leave.

Because he was so young, it took maybe 5 days before he would go down without crying most of the time. That also decreased the time I was awake during the night for feeds (used to be two hours, and now it was 30 minutes - he now eats, burps, back in crib and sleep with only a few sounds).

If you are feeling bad about the crying stuff, you can try some other methods like the "pick up put down" one - basically follow my routine and when your baby starts crying, pick them up, walk around and soothe them till calm, put back in the crib and repeat. Like I said - picking Luca up never helped so we couldn't do this method.

I will say that after the second day of 'training', I saw a HUGE difference in Luca. He woke up with a smile on his face. A SMILE. I was so used to him waking up screaming bloody murder that I didn't even know what to do. A smile. I didn't realize that he was waking up screaming because he was exhausted but didn't know how to put himself back to sleep.

Once you get rid of the rocking/soother/feeding to sleep, your baby will learn to put himself to sleep and when he wakes up in the middle of a sleep, instead of freaking out he will start to soothe himself and go back to bed. I've watched Luca do that on the video monitor and it is amazing.

ALSO as someone mentioned above, you have to be consistent. If you let him cry for 30 minutes and then pick him up, you've just taught him to cry for thirty minutes. They are little sponges, I tell you. So if you are going to give in, it has to be fast (i.e. ten minutes).

I'm always worried about the internet judgement that comes with CIO and sleep training for young babies but all I know is that a) he cried less with CIO than he did with the rocking/feeding/attachment methods b) he woke up rested and happy and c) I started to be a much happier mom.

Good luck!

 

[MuffDog]

Ohhh also - if you can, try to get your husband involved in this if you are doing a method where someone sits in the room or does the PU/PD method. Having mom go in with the milk but not giving the milk is quite difficult for the little guy. Just an idea.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Mayerling, I'm likely no help because when K was fighting sleep I was more the type to let her cry it out. When she was a newborn (starting around 6 weeks) I had a system where I'd put her down drowsy and if she started crying I'd give her 5 minutes before doing a couple of minutes of shush/pat and then trying again. Once she was >12 weeks I started putting her down more and more awake, I'd let her cry for up to 15 minutes before going in to soothe.

But! I do have a friend who sleep trained her baby without letting him cry at all. I don't know if it was part of the No Cry Sleep Solution (she read the book, but not sure if it advocates this technique). Anyway, her sleep consultant is the one who recommended it. Basically, my friend would put her baby down for a nap and the moment her baby would cry, she would pick her baby up and soothe. Sometimes this lasted for an hour, but eventually the baby fell asleep without any crying at all. The idea was positive association with the crib and learning to fall asleep without crying. Her kid is a great sleeper now, but she's since had a second and is sleep training him differently (she said she doesn't have the energy to do the no-cry solution this time around).

I do think the crying gets better. K used to cry for every nap. Not often more than 5 minutes, but she still cried. Now she loves her crib (this started around the 5 month mark). She has a lovey that she likes to touch when she's falling asleep. Just saying that the crying is likely due to her age and she'll grow out of it!

Pave, I also wanted to say that I know having a high needs baby must be so tough. I was reading a book recently that talked about high needs babies (I believe the stat was that every 1 of 5 babies is high needs). The upside is that they often grow up to be very smart and meticulous! The author was saying that he prefers to hire adults who were high needs babies becaues they do the most thorough research.

 

[pancake]

Pavelover, I just realised that my post popping up right after yours might have sounded a bit smug - I am so sorry! It was not intended to be that way. I was just trying to emphasise the huge difference that temperament makes to how easy or difficult it is to help a baby sleep.

I forgot to say, also - like NEL, there was definitely crying involved, although S never truly CIO'ed. Early on (around the 2-3 month mark) I would put her down, and she would cry (a sort of fussy, "I don't want to!" cry, not a distressed cry - would have picked her up for that) and I would let her go for about 5 minutes, by which stage she was generally asleep. Later, she had this sort of cursory protest cry, which wasn't really a cry, more a protest "heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh" which she would let out when I put her down and left, but that would generally last for about two breaths, haha.

Now she mostly thinks bed is great - I am so happy this is the case. I am sure my next baby is going to be a highly-strung bub now!

 

[pavelover]

Pancake! No worries at all- I didn't take it like that and figured it was a coincidence but I wasn't kidding about how much I like your plan and how you guys discussed things before hand. Unfortunately, mine and my husband's finest hours are not in the middle of trying to calm or get a newborn to sleep, lol. I have never had very much luck convincing him that I know best!haha! Seriously I have to admit he's the pro at getting my son to sleep. Anyhow I really like reading all the advice here and there are so many well-read mommas here. It's so nice pricescope is here!

 

[mayerling]

Thank you to all who replied. Muff, I remember your problems from the newborn thread so I'm glad to see everything's resolved.

I thought I'd better give some background as to what N is like in hopes of getting personalised advice.

1. N goes down very easily at bedtime (what I mean is that he doesn't cry but does require rocking to go to sleep - this can vary from 15-45 mins)
2. MOTN feeds are followed by swaddling and leaving him in crib (he is usually out by the time I've turned the light off )
3. Daytime naps are extremely short (20-45 mins), never in crib, and always involve a bit of crying (maybe 5 mins) because we're pushing him to go to sleep by putting the pacifier in his mouth and rocking him and he doesn't want to.
4. He's not rocked to sleep by anything (swing, car, stroller, etc.) except us.
5. If we don't actively try to put him to sleep, he'll just stare into space when he gets tired.
6. He doesn't cry when tired. His sleepy cues are staring into space, drooling (I swear it's like the kid forgets to swallow when he's tired), rubbing eyes.
7. He's a very smiley baby. Always full of smiles when he wakes up and during the whole day.

Also, for those who did CIO, CC, etc. how do you handle night feeds? If the baby has learned to self-soothe and is likely to put himself back to sleep when he wakes up, how do you know he didn't wake up because of hunger?

 

[pavelover]

Hi NEL
I missed this post earlier. Thanks for the sympathy, lol. I'll have to see how his hiring process goes in the future. His dad is quite meticulous so maybe he was also a high needs baby, hehe.
I know like you said not everyone will agree but I will definitely experiement with letting baby fuss/ learn to self soothe earlier than I did with my son. My fingers are crossed for babies with an easy disposition!
I was curious if people here who have calm babies were in utero longer than those with higher needs babes? I read a blurb the other day that said they are really valuing the extra time in the womb for brain development and encouraging docs to stop doing elective inductions/c-sections without a legitimate reason. My son was born at 37w5d (spontaneously) and then he had a bunch of medical stuff. I think he was affected by that stuff, plus a stressed out mom, plus his brain wasn't fully developed. Of course this is just my opinion. I never got to ask other moms who's kids spent time in the hospital if they also cried a lot. It's an interesting subject to me.

 

[pancake]

Mayer, it sounds like the main issue is that N now has a very strong sleep association with rocking, which needs to be weaned. I would probably target bedtime first, but that's just me - it seems to make sense that if he's the most "ready" for bed at that time, that it might be the easiest and most logical place to start. It sounds like you will need to do a gradual wean, from what you have said previously (re not wanting a lot of crying etc).

I would make sure that you are absolutely meticulous about sleep hygiene - ie darkness, quiet, pre-bed routine should be completely consistent - and I cannot stress enough how important it is that you are consistent in your approach. I would probably do some modified version of PU/PD (which again, in its "pure" form - whatever that means - is probably for slightly older babies) in which I would start with rocking him until he is very nearly asleep, then putting him down. Then pick him up again after a designated time if he fusses, or pick him up at a certain level of distress. Then do the same again. Then repeat. Then repeat. I would also set a time limit (eg 30 minutes), after which I would do whatever was necessary to get him to sleep. I would do this every night for a week, and once he started to go to sleep fairly consistently when put down extremely drowsy, I would put him down a little earlier. I think I'd probably cut back on the rocking at that point - so less vigorous, or slower, or whatever, the aim is to eventually hold him without rocking him at all.

You need to be prepared for this to take a while, and you need to absolutely stick to your guns and do it with conviction! N will be confused and upset when you initiate changes, and that is a normal response.

From a professional standpoint, I do not advocate any version of CIO before about 4 months - this is in terms of developmental appropriateness. However, I do also understand the need for parents to maintain their sanity, and sometimes decisions that don't suit most will suit a particular family.

Re the length of naps - how much of a problem is it for you? Many would say that babies who catnap are babies who catnap, and that there's not a lot you can do about it. However, if it really bothers you, then I would try lengthening naps by shush-patting through the sleep cycle transition, or wake to sleep. But again, you need to strap yourself in, because extending naps is time-consuming and hard!

For night feeds - I never tried to push the issue. S simply dropped the night feed herself one day (around 4 1/2 months) and until then, I just fed her when she woke as it didn't bother me (and in fact I quite liked the night feed!).

(Whilst I think of it - you didn't mention swaddling during the day. Do you swaddle during the day? For us, it was the only sleep association that we were really happy for S to have as it was sustainable (ie. it didn't require us to be there once it was done, unlike a dummy or rocking or breastfeeding to sleep).

 

[mayerling]

Pancake, I have swaddled during the day when trying to put N in his crib for naps. But he hasn't napped in his crib since we came back so I haven't been swaddling. Yesterday he took two 45 min naps in my arms which were in the swaddle and I just swaddled him and put him down for a nap in his cruiser (I don't know how it's going to go). Also, I would be okay with the catnaps if he didn't seem tired after them. But he is; he's constantly staring into space and drooling.

I'm not sure whether I'm going to start sleep training any time soon as it doesn't seem that DH is as concerned about it as I am and like you said we both need to be on board. Plus, I've been so exhausted because of his messed up sleep that I really don't have the energy for it right now. However, when reading that blog that you linked to, I saw that 2.5 to 4 months is considered good for sleep training (5.5-7.5 is ideal) but after 4 months is not good. Since you mention not sleep training until 4 months, and the blog says that 4 months is no good, should I just wait for the 5.5 month stage?

I should also say that since we came back 2.5 weeks ago we have had, what I think is, a very consistent bedtime routine: play, bath, nurse, swaddle, sleep. During nursing, I have the lights dimmed, and as soon as I swaddle him I turn the light completely off and put his night light on (I follow the same steps every night). For MOTN feeds, again the lights are dimmed during nursing and diaper changes, and are turned off as soon as I swaddle him. I place him in crib, turn night light on, and leave the room.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Mayerling, is N sleeping in a pack and play for naps? It sounds like nighttime sleep is good, just the naps are short. Wherever he's sleeping during the day, is it dark? I ask because I used to have K sleep in her crib at night, but I had her nap in her pack and play in our living room (so I could keep an eye on her easily). Once I moved her to her crib for naps, she slept more soundly. Her nursery has light blocking shades, so the dark room helped keep her asleep, I think.

As for crying at night, I sort of have a system. If she wakes up in the MOTN crying, I offer her a paci and will even rub her back to soothe her back to sleep. If she wakes up a 2nd time (within a few minutes), I try it again. If she wakes up a third time in a short time span, I know she's probably hungry. In my experience, K can't effectively self-soothe because the hunger keeps her up.

 

[mayerling]

NEL, he actually sleeps in a pnp at night. We don't have a crib. His room is dark in the daytime as we have blocking shades too. I've tried putting him there for naps as well but he just won't settle. He'll sleep in my arms and once I try to put him down he wakes up and starts fussing.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Dang!! Okay, well at least it's good that day and night are consistent in terms of where he sleeps. But I'm stumped as to why he keeps waking up!

 

[mayerling]

I probably shouldn't say that his night sleep is so perfect because its been pretty messed up since we got back to the UK and for the last 3 nights he's only been doing 3.5 hours for the first stretch which is supposed to be the long one. But at least he still goes down without a fuss at nights...

 

[Skippy123]

I probably shouldn't say that his night sleep is so perfect because its been pretty messed up since we got back to the UK and for the last 3 nights he's only been doing 3.5 hours for the first stretch which is supposed to be the long one. But at least he still goes down without a fuss at nights...

I think when a person travels it takes time for a baby's schedule to go back to normal. I hope your lo sleeps better soon.

 

[mayerling]

Yeah, it's been 3 weeks, though, and it was only a 2-hour time difference. I guess I should get too disheartened.

 

[Skippy123]

Yeah, it's been 3 weeks, though, and it was only a 2-hour time difference. I guess I should get too disheartened.

my boys didn't STTN till they were 9 months. They did sleep longer than 5 hours at 5 months. I remember agony for them to STTN. I am sorry. do you co-sleep? Some nights I couldn't take it and would take one baby to bed with me (I know you aren't suppose to but my energy was zapped). You do what you need to to help you both sleep. sending sleeping vibes yours and your lo's way.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Prior to six months old I basically just did what needed to be done to get babies to sleep. I worked on getting my babies to sleep on thier own, and would basically just keep trying on and off. But with both kids in the end I did waht worked. I nursed them into comas, swaddled them silly, and transferred them once asleep Or I went for drives or walks with the stroller for naps.

When they were old enough I just did cry it out. Its the only thing that worked.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thank you to all who replied. Muff, I remember your problems from the newborn thread so I'm glad to see everything's resolved.

I thought I'd better give some background as to what N is like in hopes of getting personalised advice.

1. N goes down very easily at bedtime (what I mean is that he doesn't cry but does require rocking to go to sleep - this can vary from 15-45 mins)
2. MOTN feeds are followed by swaddling and leaving him in crib (he is usually out by the time I've turned the light off )
3. Daytime naps are extremely short (20-45 mins), never in crib, and always involve a bit of crying (maybe 5 mins) because we're pushing him to go to sleep by putting the pacifier in his mouth and rocking him and he doesn't want to.
4. He's not rocked to sleep by anything (swing, car, stroller, etc.) except us.
5. If we don't actively try to put him to sleep, he'll just stare into space when he gets tired.
6. He doesn't cry when tired. His sleepy cues are staring into space, drooling (I swear it's like the kid forgets to swallow when he's tired), rubbing eyes.
7. He's a very smiley baby. Always full of smiles when he wakes up and during the whole day.

Also, for those who did CIO, CC, etc. how do you handle night feeds? If the baby has learned to self-soothe and is likely to put himself back to sleep when he wakes up, how do you know he didn't wake up because of hunger?

I think your baby sounds like a normal healthy happy 12 week old, and rather than trying to "fix" something normative, jus tadapt and know he will change and grow into a new phase very soon! The whole "don't create bad habits" thing is overrated in my book, because kids change so much and you can change a habit anytime I have found, with a little hard work.

We did CIO at 8 months and 9 months, when both boys were big and fat and ready to night wean. But there is a difference between trying to get your kid to sooth himself to sleep, and getting him to stay asleep all night. The former means using some version of CIO at bedtime or nap time. The latter means ignoring middle of the night wakings. When trying to get the kid to learn to put himself to sleep, we would try putting baby down still slightly awake and pick him up if he cried, and just repeat that over and over until the kid settled. Then over time put him down more and more alert. I still would feed at night in that phase but would put baby down still slightly awake at night too (though neither really "woke up" to feed at night after they learned night time was sleep time). When I was ready to night wean I just would not go in when they woke at night. Period. Simple! haha.