Baby sleep training - which books worked for you?

[CatLuver]

Hello mommies and mommies-to-be,

I thought I would start a thread about the different sleep books and approaches. I know there is a ton of sleep advice sprinkled in the newborn thread, and the other sleep thread, but since I don't have a baby yet, I wanted to know more about general approaches than specific advice and solutions to particular issues. I've read or skimmed a few sleep books and would love to hear which ones worked for you veteran mommies! Below are the points that I got from each book (aside from the philosophical mumbo-jumbo); if I am wrong or you have anything to add, please feel free to chime in.

Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child - Baby should be awake no more than 1-2 hours at a time. Babies refuse to sleep when they are overtired in the first place. Look for the sleepy cues. More sleep is always better and the solution to poor nighttime sleep habits is often to just put them to bed earlier, even as early as 5:30pm. Routine is key. Going to them each time they wake is not in their interest long term as it does not train them to sleep. (I found this book disorganized and very difficult to synthesize because it seemed to jump around from topic to topic, but maybe that's because I don't have a baby yet to apply all of the granular advice.)

Happiest Baby on the Block - Use the 5 S's to make the baby sleep. (But is it more trouble to have to wean off the paci later?)

No-cry Sleep Solution - Never put the baby down asleep or let them fall asleep while eating. Always put the baby down drowsy but awake. (HSHHC said this is not necessary.)

Baby Whisperer - Have not read this one yet.

Did any or all of these approaches work for you? I know it's not always simple and each baby is different, but any general thoughts would still be helpful. Also, is it the consensus that you can't really sleep train a baby (or establish "bad habits") before 3 months?
As an aside, my nephew is almost 2 and still wakes up 2-3 times a night needing to be soothed or be kept company to fall back asleep (also, he's not on any type of nap or nighttime sleep routine). I am hoping to avoid that!!!

Thanks!!!

 

[fieryred33143]

LOL based on the summary you put together, I've used them all

HSHHC-learned how to read sleep cues. I missed a lot of her cues and she would end up overtired so once I learned to read ALL of her cues, it was easier. Totally agree with the 1-2 hour rule which is similar to Baby Whisperer.

BW (EASY)-by far my favorite. Don't let the "schedule" deceive you, especially if you are nursing. Its not so much about the schedule as it is the concept of eating, playing/activity, sleep. We started that method around 6 weeks. After we got a good routine going, Sophia actually put herself on their 3 hour schedule where she would wake, nurse and after 2.5 hours was ready for a nap. It also helped tremendously with breaking the nursing to sleep habit. It's not a "bad" habit but as a working mom, I couldn't have her relying on breast time to fall asleep since my breasts were at work (that sounds bad :p)

HBOTB-the sucking need doesn't need to be a paci. If you are planning on nursing, leaving LO on the breast to comfort suck will help soothe (and increase supply).


These are *my* biggest takeaways when it comes to sleep for children based on my experience with Sophia:

-Routine is key. Babies and children thrive on consistency and structure. Doing something different every night confuses them and frustrates them.
-When in doubt, follow your gut to get that sleep. Focus on a routine from birth but understand that newborns need to learn to sleep and it is totally acceptable to let them nap 2 hrs on a swing if that's the only way that you can fight sleep deprivation.
-If it's been 2 hours, your baby may be ready for a nap. If it's been 3 hours, get them to nap. If it's been 4 or more, do everything possible to get them to sleep.
-know that there are children in this world who STTN at 7 weeks but it is NOT the norm so try not to get frustrated if baby is still waking every 3 hours at night. Sleep when they sleep and keep at it with your routine.

 

[ChinaCat]

As usual, ditto to Fiery.

I would add:

1. Don't stress/worry if none of this happens right away. It took me a few weeks to have any of this work or make sense.

2. EASY is a great routine to follow, though in the very beginning, let them sleep when they sleep. I didn't try to keep him awake if he fell asleep before the "activity" at first. Once I got used to his cues and his patterns, then it became easier to follow EASY.

3. The 5 S's totally worked for us, everytime. And he never took a paci any other time and didn't become addicted to it because of this. I personally would much rather fight the paci fight later and get some good sleep in.

4. It's hard to read their cues at first. But I found that O definitely needed a nap after 1.5 hours of being awake (and this INCLUDES time he nursed) so I would start trying to put him down then even if I didn't see cues. Sometimes he nursed for an hour, did "activity" for 20-30 mins, and he went back down.

5. I actually found Baby Wise helpful. I know it's controversial (though I believe what used to be so controversial has been modified somewhat). Instead of it saying DON'T feed your baby until it's been 3 hours or whatever, it says FEED on demand at first, but don't go any MORE than 3 hours between feedings. I think this really made a difference for O. I have friends who didn't wake their babies up to eat and it seemed to take those kids a lot longer to get on a schedule. Wake them up to eat, and feed them every 3 hours at least. O quickly got on a good schedule with eating/sleeping.

6. At some point, step away from all of the books. You will at some point find yourself exhausted and frustrated and you will pick up a book and it will say "your baby SHOULD be doing so and so" and YOU WILL GO MENTAL. Just know that all babies are different and not all babies do things as they "should". Also, it's probably best to pick ONE book and go with it. I personally think they all work to some degree, because they all tell you to get your kid on a schedule. It's the how and when that differs. But pick one and stick with it. I made the mistake of reading all of them and they all conflict and I would sit there, crying, because one book said NEVER wake up a sleeping baby and the other one said ALWAYS wake up your kid to eat and I was just like "Someone please just TELL me what to do."

7. Trust your instincts, trust your instincts, trust your instincts. Pick a plan, but follow your kid's cues.

 

[fieryred33143]

Oh yeah since China mentioned it: we also did the 5 S's and Sophia never took a paci OR sucked her thumb.

 

[TravelingGal]

-Routine is key. Babies and children thrive on consistency and structure. Doing something different every night confuses them and frustrates them.
-When in doubt, follow your gut to get that sleep. Focus on a routine from birth but understand that newborns need to learn to sleep and it is totally acceptable to let them nap 2 hrs on a swing if that's the only way that you can fight sleep deprivation.
-If it's been 2 hours, your baby may be ready for a nap. If it's been 3 hours, get them to nap. If it's been 4 or more, do everything possible to get them to sleep[/color
]- know that there are children in this world who STTN at 7 weeks but it is NOT the norm so try not to get frustrated if baby is still waking every 3 hours at night. Sleep when they sleep and keep at it with your routine.

My only adjustment on this is:

If it's been 2 hours, you're stretching it with a newborn. If it's been 3 hours, all bets are off...do whatever you can (including swing) to get them to sleep, and pray to the sleep gods while you're at it. If it's been 4 hours, forget it, you're f*cked. Make a pot of coffee and prepare to deal with a cranky, awake baby for the next 9 hours.

 

[fieryred33143]

Haha yes I forget newborns sleep more. It hasn't even been that long and I already forgot.

Funny to say that newborns sleep more. It sure didn't feel like that when she was a newborn!

 

[Mara]

HA I think I had the only newborn in the history of the world who didn't pass out every 2 hours like clockwork.

DITTO the other Mommas. Also remember all babies are different. What works for one will not necessarily work for the next 5 or 10.

Our biggest key takeaways about sleep:

--Five S's works magic. Swaddle is king. And the 'swinging' one, you really need to go to town on that swinging. None of that little swaying slowly while you stand stuff for my baby. J needed like brain rattling swinging before he'd pass out. I watched a YouTube video on it and the guy was going nuts but it worked.
--Sometimes it takes a while. A few nights J took 45 minutes to go down when he was younger... and that was full on 5 S'ing the whole time. But thank god it was only a few nights out of many he was that stubborn.
--Nothing is set in stone. You may think that ABC is working fabulously and then 2 weeks later umm it's not anymore. So time to try ABD or DBF. There's always things you can try. They don't always have to come from books, your own intuition is fabulous for making stuff up! And go with the flow.

And the biggest one for us, yes, routine routine routine. Even if it doesn't always work or even work 'most of the time'...eventually it will click for the baby and when it does, the fact that it's been routine the whole time just solidifies it in their minds. Every night we did the SAME THINGS around the same times for him. Now, he is 7mo and the blips we have had with sleep are quite small compared to what a lot of families go through. Some of that is that he does like to sleep, and some of it is that I think I was a crazy woman about routine from day 1. It doesn't mean we never deviate from it but because it IS routine and ingrained in him-- when we do deviate he doesn't falter.

and yes...sometimes the baby will sleep 2-3 hours in the swing. The swing is your best friend at 3am when the 4 week old isn't easily soothed by anything else. And no it won't be a habit. Now at 7mo J has outgrown his swing and no longer finds it soothing--I put him in it the other day (for fun) and he was hanging onto the sides looking like 'What the heck is this?!?!'. HA!

re: sleep training before 3mo. I think it's possible in 'shades of gray'. J was going 8 hours at 8 weeks and we just worked on getting him to 10 then to 12 over time. We'd tank him up before sleep, stick with his bedtime/soothing routine and just do whatever we needed to get him asleep. BUT he also didn't feed that often at night after 6 weeks so that is why it was easier for us to start that early. On the flip side a friend who has a 7mo old as well still wakes up 2x a night with her boy and still feeds him 1x a night and cannot seem to get rid of that feed yet. But they are doing fine as well. It is just up to the baby and the family.

I read HSHHC and NCSS but also used EASY from the ladies on Newborn (which most of the sleep books also discuss in one way or another, basically it's 'routine').

 

[Pandora II]

I honestly don't think you can sleep train all children - some will happily fit to schedules, others show no inclination.

What I learnt was:

- Each child is different - my nephew has slept 7 to 7 (with one dream feed) and taken 4 naps a day since he was 3 weeks old; my daughter has little interest in sleep at the best of times and when I hear other mothers asking when they should go from 2 naps to 1 I want to cry. My friends' kids seem to range between the two extremes and yet we all have different parenting techniques.

- Everytime you think you have a routine something will bugger it up - teething, tummyache, xmas...

I started with Baby Whisperer and ended up with Dr Sears and all of us in one bed (and some sleep at last!) Daisy started to STTN (and by that I mean 6 hours straight) at about 13 months - the thought of a whole 12 hours is a distant dream...

I will admit that I'm not one for strict routines, it just wouldn't work for my life, but I have always had a rough schedule each day. I also will not do CIO under any circumstances, Daisy has never been left to cry for more than 5 minutes. I did used to let her cry a bit if she woke up and then found that all it did was totally wake her up whereas going in at the first squeak meant I could feed her back to sleep in a few minutes.

 

[Sabine]

My favorite book by method was HSHHC, but honestly it's not the easiest to read.

The Sleep Easy Solution had a lot of great info and was really well written and easy to read/use, but the method in it is basically the same as Ferber, which is to put them down, leave, and if they start crying go in at increasingly longer intervals to check in and "reassure" them that you haven't abandoned them. You can soothe with your voice (and maybe patting the back or something, I don't remember exactly) but you were NOT to pick them up no matter what. Honestly, the check ins just enraged my ds and made it take longer for him to fall asleep overall, and I agree with whoever it was in one of the many books that said check ins end up being more to reassure the parent than the kid, and I felt a video monitor was a MUCH better way to do this.

Ferber's book...How to solve your child's sleep problems, or something like that, is the check in method, but the book wasn't as cleanly written as Sleep Easy Solution.

My 2 cents...if you're going to do CIO, do extinction, and stay strong, because there's nothing worse than letting them cry for an hour, breaking down and going in and soothing them to sleep, because all they learn is that if I cry long enough, mommy will come.

Cosleeping is a great option if you aren't for CIO, but it really only works for the mom, imo, if you're breastfeeding. We did it out of necessity, and I ended up getting no sleep. And do the research to do it safely.

Ds was colicky and had reflux. The 5 s's were our best friends. One thing I learned is that when you've done the 5 s's and you still have a screaming newborn, sometimes doing something that's a shock to the system will work wonders, such as going into the bathroom and running the bath water or hairdryer (loud noise), or when ds was REALLY having a fit, one thing that really worked for us was swaddling him, then taking him out into the frigid winter air for a few seconds while rocking.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I agree that HSHHC is difficult to follow. That guy should have had a better editor and/or assistant. I ordered it a couple of months after Claire was born, and I did find the information about putting a young infant down after two hours awake to be helpful. Previous to that, Claire would have these fussy spells where I couldn't figure out what was "wrong."

I found Baby Wise to be the helpful in terms of concrete advice that seemed easy to follow. I will say that even though the book said to feed on demand at first, I was so anxious to "get on a schedule" that I rarely fed Claire sooner than 2 or 2.5 hours, even as a newborn, and we had some issues with weight gain (didn't regain her birthweight until 3 weeks; had to do a crazy feed/supplement/pump schedule). In retrospect I would have put establishing breastfeeding and gaining weight above establishing a routine.

Baby Whisperer was similar to Baby Wise in terms of philosophy, perhaps with more anecdotes about mothers.

At 10 months Claire is sleeping about 10 or 11 hours at night (sometimes waking up after 8 for a feed and then going back down) and taking two 1.5 hours nap. I don't know if this is "right," but it's a schedule I can live with. We put her down around 8:30 or 9, so we have a lot of time with her at night, then I get to sleep in in the morning and have about 3 hours of nap time to get things done during the day. I'm sure I could find some books that say this is all wrong, but it works for me.

 

[KimberlyH]

I say skip the books and follow your instincts and your baby's cues (sic). You already know routine is key, that babies need to go down frequently and at roughly timed intervals, and what your end goal is. Know that sleep is not linear; your baby may STTN (defined as 5-8 hours, not 12) early on and it may take longer and more work on your part, as long as you stick to your routine and keep trying you're doing great. What I thought I may do (I promised myself not to commit to being a certain type of parent, but being flexible and finding out what works for my family as a whole as we go and that attitude has served me well) turned out to be opposite of my instincts once my daughter was born, and following my instincts has worked well for us.

P.S. sleep whenever the kid does, no matter what, when you can sleep, do.

P.P.S. Not all babies take pacifiers,.

 

[CatLuver]

Thanks for the input all!

fiery - I plan to continue working so not having a nursing to sleep habit would be good.

Chinacat - it is confusing with the different advice from the different books. HSHHC actually says (I think) that babies don’t need to eat at night, and their wakeups are just because of their body clock naturally waking them at night? Which is different from everything else I’ve heard.

Tgal - good to know

Mara - 8 hours at 8 weeks sounds great. One thing I am confused about though, is whether "STTN" means truly sleeping through however many hours without even waking, or includes when the baby wakes but just needs a feed to go back to sleep (with little or no fussing). I've seen people refer to STTN even though they have to feed during those hours. Re: swinging, I can’t imagine vigorous swinging, but I guess they really like it.

Pandora - I don’t think we’ll do cosleeping or Sears but it’s good to hear a different perspective.

Sabine - that’s hilarious about your DS being shocked into calmness by the frigid winter air. Good point re: extinction, I definitely wouldn’t want to train the baby to cry more. I’ve been wondering about the interval check-in thing too, it seems like the baby would either go with it, or not.

pg - that’s something to keep in mind about weight gain v. getting on a schedule. I guess the routine can be established when it’s the right time.

Kimberly - thanks. I will plan on sleeping when the kid does and letting DH and others do everything else house and chore-wise, at least when I am on maternity leave. I don’t know how I would be able to survive otherwise.

 

[Pandora II]

I count STTN as hours asleep and don't include feeds in that time. If I include feeds where Daisy doesn't actually wake up then she sleeps around 11 hours a night. She's like DH and I in that she's not a morning person so normal wake-up is between 8am and 10am (thank goodness as I couldn't cope with a 5am waker!)

Babies definitely need to feed at night - at least for the first 6 months. Breastfed babies tend to need to feed every 3 hours or so, formula fed will feed less frequently as it takes longer to digest. The 3 hours includes the time for the feed so if they take 40 minutes to feed they'll need to be fed again in 2 hours or so.

I'd agree with PG on feeding on demand if you are bfing as you can really reduce your supply by sticking to a rigid schedule. Also young babies cry because they have a need not to 'control' you or anything of that ilk, so responding to that need is more important than waiting till the scheduled time.

Every time there is a growth spurt (around every 2-3 weeks) you'll find they want to eat like crazy for a couple of days and then it slows again - at times I felt like I had Daisy surgically attached to my boob!

We definitely didn't plan to co-sleep and I'd never heard of Dr Sears until I ended up desperate (heck, she has a crib that she has NEVER slept in). I did Baby Whisperer for the first 4 months - tried swaddling, pacifiers (spat out everytime and I REALLY tried), everything - and then gave up the battle and stopped trying to sleep-train or teach her to self-soothe as it was only making us both miserable and just fed her to sleep everytime. Now, I love co-sleeping and being woken up by a grinning imp in the morning - if we have another I'll definitely do AP from the very start.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Pan, I can't remember all the details because of mommy brain, but I think Claire stopped breastfeeding every 3 hours over night by one month. By three months she was definitely going a 6 or 7 hour stretch between feeds and by 6 months was probably around 8 or 9 hours. Now at 10 months we're somewhere around 10 hours (Claire is probably taking 1 or 2 ounces of juice or water by cup a day, so not so much that it's affecting her BFing yet -- but working on it!). I absolutely believe Daisy needed to feed that often -- look at that Skinny Minny! -- but I wanted to point this out so as not to scare CatLuver. I have a friend whose EBF baby was STTN for 12 hours by 3 months. On the other hand, I have another friend whose 10 month old is still BFing every 3 hours over night. I think it all depends on the child. I'm sure co-sleeping factors in there somewhere, but ultimately I think temperament is probably the key.

 

[Jas12]

I've used the Baby Whisperer EASY routine with my 2 and it is pretty well fail-proof IMO (IF you put in the required effort) I give this book to all of my close friends, and they have kids that sleep 7-7 with no issues/no wake up. We are all huge BW fans The approach is similar to HSH--however, the baby whisperer def. thinks that babies need to eat in the night--at least for a few months


Whatever method you use, know that consistency is key. Keep the same bedtime each night ( i made the mistake with the first one of keeping him up, thinking he's sleep better --ah, no way)

And SWADDLE.
It makes all the difference for a newborn.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

We follow Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child too, for the most part. I found the writing confusing but the theory behind it is good. Weissbluth is really good about telling you that if your child doesn't get enough sleep, they will be a raging insomniac, thief, and most likely a homicidal maniac when they're an adult, but he's really lacking on how to give you a precise plan to ensure your child avoids such a fate. The one place that really helped me is the Baby Center's group Teaching Your Baby and Toddler How To Sleep, where you can post specific problems and get specific answers back. Obviously the sleep books can't do that. I also found Weissbluth to be totally impractical when you have more than one child, as you can't always devote the attention needed to teaching your baby to sleep when you have a toddler running around. My baby is almost 5 months old (sleeps from 7.30 to anywhere from 5am to 7am without eating and has been doing so for awhile), but when he was younger, we would violate Weissbluth by letting him nap in the Ergo if our 2 year old needed to sleep and we thought the baby would cry and keep her up.

 

[Mara]

I also count STTN as hours asleep with no wakes. I think 'technically' it is 6 hours or something like that but for us it was 8+ since that's how long we tend to sleep so that # just stuck in our head.

 

[ChargerGrrl]

My quick two cents.

We read HBOTB and it worked GREAT for us. N has responded well to the 5 S's, especially swaddling and swaying. I would totally recommend it to all new parents. Note that you don't necessarily have to read the book- the DVD is very informative and you'll get the jist of it. One thing, i wouldn't exactly call it a sleep training book as it's really only meant to be followed during the "4th trimester". True, some of the elements may be used beyond it, but they're not meant to be long-term.

N is about to turn 3 months old, so we've been incorporating tidbits from HSHHC- especially when it comes to naps. The two hour rule has helped us introduce somewhat regular naps into his schedule.

Good luck!

 

[CatLuver]

Thanks all for the input! I get that routine is key so I will try my hardest with that, but after my maternity leave is over, I won't really be able to control at what happens during the daytime at all. Oh well!

 

[Mara]

Cat...I don't know if you are considering daycare or a nanny but you still should have some control over what happens. It depends on your care and if it's a big daycare they may have 10 other kids they try to get on the same nap schedule, feeding schedule, etc, but it'll still at least be a 'routine' even if it's not the one you carved out initially. Also, our 'routine' kind of keeps changing from time to time, we mostly let J lead us but as long as we have *a* routine, I am not that crazy about what kind of routine it is or when things happen. So don't be discouraged, I think that at least getting the baby used to *a* routine helps them glom onto future routines more easily!

 

[CatLuver]

Thx Mara, I wasn't too confident re daycare routines based on other people's experience especially Kay's thread awhile back. It's up in the air right now, either daycare or MIL. I'm not confident about MIL keeping a routine either bc she often cares for my nephew who has no routine at all as I mentioned before, not even at night. I am already dreading the rule enforcement/confrontation we'll have to be doing with the IL's based on the way they care for my nephew...

 

[CatLuver]

-Routine is key. Babies and children thrive on consistency and structure. Doing something different every night confuses them and frustrates them.
-When in doubt, follow your gut to get that sleep. Focus on a routine from birth but understand that newborns need to learn to sleep and it is totally acceptable to let them nap 2 hrs on a swing if that's the only way that you can fight sleep deprivation.
-If it's been 2 hours, your baby may be ready for a nap. If it's been 3 hours, get them to nap. If it's been 4 or more, do everything possible to get them to sleep[/color
]- know that there are children in this world who STTN at 7 weeks but it is NOT the norm so try not to get frustrated if baby is still waking every 3 hours at night. Sleep when they sleep and keep at it with your routine.

My only adjustment on this is:

If it's been 2 hours, you're stretching it with a newborn. If it's been 3 hours, all bets are off...do whatever you can (including swing) to get them to sleep, and pray to the sleep gods while you're at it. If it's been 4 hours, forget it, you're f*cked. Make a pot of coffee and prepare to deal with a cranky, awake baby for the next 9 hours.

(I can't find how to highlight this)
Um, so true. So I tried to prepare by reading all these books beforehand, but it didn't really sink in until I had a real live baby to work with. He is 4 weeks old now and I thought we got through the 3 week growth spurt during 3 days last week, but we are still having sleeping/eating issues. I didn't realize how much intervention/active management is needed to implement the sleeping every 2 hours; I thought that the baby would fall asleep or be more obvious about it, and haven't been keeping to the 2 hours and looking for the sleep cues. So it's been many days of horrid night sleep, but today I am implementing the 2 hours and am hopeful for the future. The most he has slept at night is 3 hours; usually it's more like 2 and recently it has been 1 or less than 1 which you all know is no fun at all.

Wise veteran moms, how do you start a consistent nighttime routine when a baby is still at a feed on demand type schedule? So it won't be the case that every night at 7 he is ready to eat or ready to start his nighttime routine - he could be at any stage of the cycle. Just do the routine at the same approximate time after he has fed?

When do you think it is ok to start the 20 min rule (don't pick up until he has fussed for 20 min)? He often grunts quite loudly and squirms for a long time after I feed and put him down; it's not quiet restful sleep, so that interferes with the whole routine. I never know if it's gas pains or he just wants to be held, so I don't want to just leave him; plus, he never really quiets down anyway. I'm wondering if it might be reflux.

Is it common to not need to feed at night at 6 weeks?

 

[Dreamer_D]

BW (EASY)-by far my favorite. Don't let the "schedule" deceive you, especially if you are nursing. Its not so much about the schedule as it is the concept of eating, playing/activity, sleep. We started that method around 6 weeks. After we got a good routine going, Sophia actually put herself on their 3 hour schedule where she would wake, nurse and after 2.5 hours was ready for a nap. It also helped tremendously with breaking the nursing to sleep habit. It's not a "bad" habit but as a working mom, I couldn't have her relying on breast time to fall asleep since my breasts were at work (that sounds bad :p)

Ditto this, we used a modified BW method starting around 4 weeks. I EBF, and in the end went with a EAESY routine which worked best for us. I would nurse before sleep but not TO sleep, put him down groggy.

We also used the pick-up-put-down method to teach him to fall asleep in his crib.

But be flexible in the method you use, and know that if you want it to work it takes a tonne of persistence. Most books make it sound much simpler than it really is.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Wise veteran moms, how do you start a consistent nighttime routine when a baby is still at a feed on demand type schedule? So it won't be the case that every night at 7 he is ready to eat or ready to start his nighttime routine - he could be at any stage of the cycle. Just do the routine at the same approximate time after he has fed?

I followed his cues at that age and did not sweat it much. In my opinion, routine is less about a strict TIME for each event and more about a consisten pattern of events through the day. Since most 4 week old babies have a cycle that is in the 2-3 hours range (Hunter NEVER was on a 3-4 hour schedule, he always ate every 2.5 hours which is why we ended up with a EAEASY routine as he got older) then bedtime will likey be within an hour even if things are out of whack from day to day. As his naps become more consistent you will find a time for bedtime becomes more consistent too, within a 30 minute window perhaps.

When do you think it is ok to start the 20 min rule (don't pick up until he has fussed for 20 min)? He often grunts quite loudly and squirms for a long time after I feed and put him down; it's not quiet restful sleep, so that interferes with the whole routine. I never know if it's gas pains or he just wants to be held, so I don't want to just leave him; plus, he never really quiets down anyway. I'm wondering if it might be reflux.

Grunting and moaning and loud breathing is normal for a baby I learned, and it is one reason why we moved Hunter to his own room at 4 weeks. They seem to be sick or unhealthy the grunt and make so much noise! But babies are just learning to regulate their breathing at that age, it is normal. In my opinion, don't pick him up unless he actually cries and then do it right away -- In my experience the whole "fuss 20 minutes" thing was a crock when it came to full out crying and I just responsed right awat until I was ready for full out CIO at 9 months. At 4 weeks I thought when he grunted etc that he had a cold or something wrong, and I actually slept with him on my chest for a looooong time because he seemed to make less noise that way, but he was sleeping! Them on you helps them be quite because your breathing regulates theirs, and so on their own their body is learning to do it by itself. Now I know that and with my second will ignore all noises after 4 weeks unless it is an actual cry, which clearly communicates a need.[/quote]

Is it common to not need to feed at night at 6 weeks?

Ummmm... no. I have heard os such mythical babies. There are a few here on PS. In my real life, I know none. EBF babies tend to feed at night. Hunter fed 3-4 times per night until we used CIO at 9 months. I have a friend who used CIO at 4 months and ended the night feeds at that point. The way I look at it now, it is not a big chunk of your life and it is simplest to just find a way to make night feeds easy for YOU than to try and fight nature and get them to stop night feeds early. A Co-sleeper and nursing lying down works well with older babies (like 3 mo plus). I just went to his room and nursed him and barrelled through it. But I was not working, which made it easier.

 

[CatLuver]

BW (EASY)-by far my favorite. Don't let the "schedule" deceive you, especially if you are nursing. Its not so much about the schedule as it is the concept of eating, playing/activity, sleep. We started that method around 6 weeks. After we got a good routine going, Sophia actually put herself on their 3 hour schedule where she would wake, nurse and after 2.5 hours was ready for a nap. It also helped tremendously with breaking the nursing to sleep habit. It's not a "bad" habit but as a working mom, I couldn't have her relying on breast time to fall asleep since my breasts were at work (that sounds bad :p)

Ditto this, we used a modified BW method starting around 4 weeks. I EBF, and in the end went with a EAESY routine which worked best for us. I would nurse before sleep but not TO sleep, put him down groggy.

We also used the pick-up-put-down method to teach him to fall asleep in his crib.

But be flexible in the method you use, and know that if you want it to work it takes a tonne of persistence. Most books make it sound much simpler than it really is.

Dreamer, with EAESY, did you still stick to the sleep every 2 hours routine? Most times it takes so long to put him down that there's not much time for the "A" to fit it all into 2 hours.

How do you prevent nursing to sleep? Mine always falls asleep nursing, did you wake him up? Sometimes he wakes up when I burp him, but he definitely won't go to sleep on his own if I put him down groggy. Is that when you did the pick up - put down thing? I want to try that but he makes so much noise with the loud grunts and moans and I can't tell if he is having gas pains or just wants to be held.

 

[CatLuver]

Grunting and moaning and loud breathing is normal for a baby I learned, and it is one reason why we moved Hunter to his own room at 4 weeks. They seem to be sick or unhealthy the grunt and make so much noise! But babies are just learning to regulate their breathing at that age, it is normal. In my opinion, don't pick him up unless he actually cries and then do it right away -- In my experience the whole "fuss 20 minutes" thing was a crock when it came to full out crying and I just responsed right awat until I was ready for full out CIO at 9 months. At 4 weeks I thought when he grunted etc that he had a cold or something wrong, and I actually slept with him on my chest for a looooong time because he seemed to make less noise that way, but he was sleeping! Them on you helps them be quite because your breathing regulates theirs, and so on their own their body is learning to do it by itself. Now I know that and with my second will ignore all noises after 4 weeks unless it is an actual cry, which clearly communicates a need.

[/quote]

You just answered a bunch of my later questions - thank you!

Re: The grunting and moaning...it confuses me because sometimes he has nice quiet restful sleep (usually after DH has held him for awhile before putting down, or when he sleeps in his carseat on walks or in the car, or when he is being held like you said), but then when I don't do hold him for a long time before putting down (like at night after feedings), he has the grunts and moans, and not just for 20 minutes; it continues for hours until he is ready for his next feed. They're not quite squirmy noises, they're LOUD moans like an adult would make when trying to push something or feeling uncomfortable - so it's hard for me to ignore! I wish I could tape them and play them so people could tell me if they are normal or not.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Grunting and moaning and loud breathing is normal for a baby I learned, and it is one reason why we moved Hunter to his own room at 4 weeks. They seem to be sick or unhealthy the grunt and make so much noise! But babies are just learning to regulate their breathing at that age, it is normal. In my opinion, don't pick him up unless he actually cries and then do it right away -- In my experience the whole "fuss 20 minutes" thing was a crock when it came to full out crying and I just responsed right awat until I was ready for full out CIO at 9 months. At 4 weeks I thought when he grunted etc that he had a cold or something wrong, and I actually slept with him on my chest for a looooong time because he seemed to make less noise that way, but he was sleeping! Them on you helps them be quite because your breathing regulates theirs, and so on their own their body is learning to do it by itself. Now I know that and with my second will ignore all noises after 4 weeks unless it is an actual cry, which clearly communicates a need.

You just answered a bunch of my later questions - thank you!

Re: The grunting and moaning...it confuses me because sometimes he has nice quiet restful sleep (usually after DH has held him for awhile before putting down, or when he sleeps in his carseat on walks or in the car, or when he is being held like you said), but then when I don't do hold him for a long time before putting down (like at night after feedings), he has the grunts and moans, and not just for 20 minutes; it continues for hours until he is ready for his next feed. They're not quite squirmy noises, they're LOUD moans like an adult would make when trying to push something or feeling uncomfortable - so it's hard for me to ignore! I wish I could tape them and play them so people could tell me if they are normal or not.[/quote]

Are his eyes closed? Is he crying? If not, then it sounds a lot like what Hunter used to do. If he was in pain he would cry out. When he wakes does he cry? Is this different than when he needs to feed?

Hunter would do this mostly at night, in the middle of the night of course. I worried about it so much I tilted his bed and let him sleep on my chest and all sorts of things. Then I just used the pick-up-put-down method and swaddling to help him sleep in his own room and all was well. When he was hungry he would scream and cry. Otherwise, I just ignored the wierd moans and grunts and groans, which to me di dsound exactly like someone pooping. A baby learns not only how to breath but how to coordinate the urge to poop/fart with the straining to poop and fart. When they are learning, they often grunt and moan like they are trying to pass gas and nothing happens because they are doing it at the wrong time. So I repeat, if his eyes are closed and he looks like he is sleeping, then he is most likely sleeping! When babies really need us, they really let us know.

 

[Dreamer_D]

BW (EASY)-by far my favorite. Don't let the "schedule" deceive you, especially if you are nursing. Its not so much about the schedule as it is the concept of eating, playing/activity, sleep. We started that method around 6 weeks. After we got a good routine going, Sophia actually put herself on their 3 hour schedule where she would wake, nurse and after 2.5 hours was ready for a nap. It also helped tremendously with breaking the nursing to sleep habit. It's not a "bad" habit but as a working mom, I couldn't have her relying on breast time to fall asleep since my breasts were at work (that sounds bad :p)

Ditto this, we used a modified BW method starting around 4 weeks. I EBF, and in the end went with a EAESY routine which worked best for us. I would nurse before sleep but not TO sleep, put him down groggy.

We also used the pick-up-put-down method to teach him to fall asleep in his crib.

But be flexible in the method you use, and know that if you want it to work it takes a tonne of persistence. Most books make it sound much simpler than it really is.

Dreamer, with EAESY, did you still stick to the sleep every 2 hours routine? Most times it takes so long to put him down that there's not much time for the "A" to fit it all into 2 hours.

How do you prevent nursing to sleep? Mine always falls asleep nursing, did you wake him up? Sometimes he wakes up when I burp him, but he definitely won't go to sleep on his own if I put him down groggy. Is that when you did the pick up - put down thing? I want to try that but he makes so much noise with the loud grunts and moans and I can't tell if he is having gas pains or just wants to be held.

I did not really worry about the timeline and instead watched for his sleep cues. Nursing takes like 40 minutes at that age, so then he was only "awake" for like 20 and then off the sleep again for 45 minutes or something. For me, timeline mattered less and what mattered was the order of things. The first 4 weeks he slept in our arms 24/7, I would just sleep on the couch with him in the day and at night he was in bed on my chest. Then I used a soft carrier in the day and he slept in that, and we started swaddling and gradually teaching him to go to sleep on his own. That is when we used the pick up put down. First couple of nights/tries it did take 1.5hours then 45 minutes for it to work. Then 20 minutes, then 10 and on and on.

I would nurse HUnter then reswaddle him/change diaper if needed, then when swaddled I would nurse him until groggy then put him in bed before he was totally asleep. So the second little nurse post-swaddle was the calm him until he was milk drunk, then into bed he went. From about 4/5 weeks, at 7pm I would do that then any subsequent nursing would be in the dark in his room at night and he would go right back to bed after I nursed him. I would nurse him until he was basically asleep then pop him into bed with a pacifier. As he got older we did the pick-up put-down more often. At night,though, nursing until calm then into bed again seemed to be all it took. He got the picture quickly that night was not the time to play. In the day, once I finished nursing I would do something with him for 20 minutes until I noticed his signs, like yawning and staring. He was only awake a short time in those early days.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Ditto what everyone else said and here's my $.02. You can train and train and train, and they will regress and regress and regress again. It's a constantly evolving beast, not a milestone that you reach and move past.

Aidan started sleeping for 9 hour stretches from 11-13 weeks (right as he started daycare). We thought we were in the clear. By 14 weeks he was waking up 3-4 times a night and we didn't have another stretch of sleep longer than 4 hours until last week (27-28 weeks). We had one week of decent sleep (6 hours) and then last night he was up 7 times between 8 and 5. We're lucky in that he'll put himself down for naps and bed. We just pop him in his carseat (for naps) or his crib (for bed) and 5 minutes later he's out. But he wakes up constantly all night long.

 

[taovandel]

I guess we did EASY....we never bought any books and just followed Evan's cues really. He naturally went into EASY and the 2-3 hour cycle part. I'm hoping the new baby is just as inclined to sleep like my son was!

And yes to HH--Evan regressed for about 2 weeks or so around 4 months...and then was back to normal.