Auto Bailout

[geckodani]

Date: 11/20/2008 5:40:52 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/19/2008 11:24:47 PM
Author: starsapphire
I mean, I am not against Capitalism or anything, but, sometimes, I think things have really gotten out of hand. A Big 3 auto worker makes $70 fricken dollars an hour????? Plus retirement, healthcare, etc?????? That is more than cops, firefighters, and TEACHERS! There is something wrong here. Plus the Legacy costs run around $2000+ a car?????? I think we need a reset or something.

Jealous much?
Ever worked in a auto plant?

The starting wage is between 14 and 16 an hour and they work very hard.
The only ones making 70+ is skilled trades.
They do not have 401k and the only retirement the people have that put in 30 years is a traditional pension.
The average for the local plant is 40k + benefits which is less than my dad made in 1987 doing the same job.
The industry average is 28 an hour and the average age is 50.

Not to mention that even if they declare bankruptcy, those hard earned pensions could be reduced or even eliminated.

I''m not a fan of bailing them out, at ALL. I think it would be a waste of money. But I also think that the ramifications of the Big 3 going under would be greater than people realize.

No good solutions seem to be forthcoming.

Regardless of the cost of flying a personal jet, just the image it projects - of needless waste, does a lot of PR damage to them, and their credibility.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 11/20/2008 10:46:59 AM
Author: purrfectpear

Date: 11/20/2008 10:36:43 AM
Author: Ellen
strm, if that''s the case, then why didn''t they say that? The ONE reason I heard was that they were for security puposes. For what? Is someone going to kidnap one of these guys and hold him for ransom? Would anyone even know who they were?? Sounds, very questionable to me. But ok, maybe they do need a plane or two, but do they really need a whole fleet? And did they really need to fly to the hearing on a private jet?

You wouldn''t think it (I didn''t) but they actually ARE targets for kidnapping and mayhem. I was at a big conference at an Anaheim hotel and when our CEO arrived, they cleared the ballroom and brought in bomb sniffing dogs first. It''s pretty sad when you think about it, but I guess if you were a terrorist you could get a lot of publicity if you blew up the Pres. of the biggest Aerospace or Automotive manufacturing.

They''re easily recognizable now because of the internet. They''re on the news, on Utube, etc.

Our top execs have bodyguards. They''re needed

Hmm, no, I obviously didn''t think it! Then apparently they are needed, but there are still steps that could be taken. And no one, imho, needs to make 36 million a year. But hey, that''s just me.

 

[Beacon]

Date: 11/20/2008 10:22:24 AM
Author: strmrdr
re-Jets they are used for far more than moving executives around.
They have teams of troubleshooters for the very high end equipment that fly around the country and repair things.
It is far cheaper than and likely it is pretty much impossible to maintain staff at every plant for this type of thing and they need to get there quickly as every hour of downtime can cost millions.
They are also used to move parts around as needed.
Several times they have used them to fly into my cities airport to pick up enough small parts to keep the plants going when something in the procurement process fails and it will take 24 hours for a truck to get there.
One example was engine mount bolts, they didn''t order them in time and since they used the same bolt as another company but with a different coating and the producing company could spare some of the other companies part and still meet orders they flew in and picked up 10 boxes of bolts which is enough to keep the plant up until the truck arrived with the right parts.
Which is why some cars ended up with gold bolts instead of blue ones and you will occasionally find a bolt with another car companies logo on it.
A mechanic buddy of mine tore apart a GM engine once and all the block bolts had the ford emblem on them.
The same thing happens to borrow parts from another factory.

Even moving the execs is grounds for a jet as they will often have 3-4 meetings in 3 different states in the same day.
You can not do that with commercial.
It is less important with the internet than it used to be but somethings have to be done in person still.

THis is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If they do use private jets to fly parts around they are breathtakingly stupid. On the other hand, maybe this is why they are bankrupt, because they are breathtakingly stupid.

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 11/20/2008 5:40:52 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/19/2008 11:24:47 PM
Author: starsapphire
I mean, I am not against Capitalism or anything, but, sometimes, I think things have really gotten out of hand. A Big 3 auto worker makes $70 fricken dollars an hour????? Plus retirement, healthcare, etc?????? That is more than cops, firefighters, and TEACHERS! There is something wrong here. Plus the Legacy costs run around $2000+ a car?????? I think we need a reset or something.

Jealous much?
Ever worked in a auto plant?

The starting wage is between 14 and 16 an hour and they work very hard.
The only ones making 70+ is skilled trades.
They do not have 401k and the only retirement the people have that put in 30 years is a traditional pension.
The average for the local plant is 40k + benefits which is less than my dad made in 1987 doing the same job.
The industry average is 28 an hour and the average age is 50.

What is the skilled trade that they are making $70 an hour? Most of it is done by machine now, right? The Legacy costs run around $2000 per car.

I''m sorry, but I am really hoping that Capitalism gets a re-set. This whole country (maybe the world?) has been financially stupid. Oh, maybe I am becoming a ......... Democrat........but I don''t like unions, so I don''t know.

 

[Beacon]

But keep in mind, GMs HMO is the largest single purchaser of Viagra in the world, and oh my, what would happen if they had to give that up? World disaster, no doubt.

The auto company rank and file employees appear to hate management. Management appears wasteful and incompetent. The union workers look like they are sucking this thing dry while the fool execs fly around on their jets.

I hate that we are giving these guys money. Moreover, if these companies were allowed to grow DOWN to where they should be, people would go out and find other, better companies to work for and we would not be in a perpetual cycle. After all, would you tell your kids to go work at GM? What a future.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 11/20/2008 11:26:54 AM
Author: Beacon

Date: 11/20/2008 10:22:24 AM
Author: strmrdr
re-Jets they are used for far more than moving executives around.
They have teams of troubleshooters for the very high end equipment that fly around the country and repair things.
It is far cheaper than and likely it is pretty much impossible to maintain staff at every plant for this type of thing and they need to get there quickly as every hour of downtime can cost millions.
They are also used to move parts around as needed.
Several times they have used them to fly into my cities airport to pick up enough small parts to keep the plants going when something in the procurement process fails and it will take 24 hours for a truck to get there.
One example was engine mount bolts, they didn't order them in time and since they used the same bolt as another company but with a different coating and the producing company could spare some of the other companies part and still meet orders they flew in and picked up 10 boxes of bolts which is enough to keep the plant up until the truck arrived with the right parts.
Which is why some cars ended up with gold bolts instead of blue ones and you will occasionally find a bolt with another car companies logo on it.
A mechanic buddy of mine tore apart a GM engine once and all the block bolts had the ford emblem on them.
The same thing happens to borrow parts from another factory.

Even moving the execs is grounds for a jet as they will often have 3-4 meetings in 3 different states in the same day.
You can not do that with commercial.
It is less important with the internet than it used to be but somethings have to be done in person still.

THis is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If they do use private jets to fly parts around they are breathtakingly stupid. On the other hand, maybe this is why they are bankrupt, because they are breathtakingly stupid.

agreed, that is insane! Did anyone catch the clip where they asked the CEO's to take a paycut and they wouldn't?

Here they ask for money but they still want there insane pay.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2008 12:02:51 PM
Author: starsapphire

What is the skilled trade that they are making $70 an hour? Most of it is done by machine now, right? The Legacy costs run around $2000 per car.


I'm sorry, but I am really hoping that Capitalism gets a re-set. This whole country (maybe the world?) has been financially stupid. Oh, maybe I am becoming a ......... Democrat........but I don't like unions, so I don't know.

Unions have a place but are they out of controll? Yes but not as much as they used to be.

Skilled trades these days are cnc and robot programmers and repair, people who can easily pull down 100k elsewhere.
The training class in robot repair is 5 years long and you have to have a degree to get in the program.
They can not afford to lose these people.
Shocking that people are against production workers making a decent wage but have no problem with people who add nothing to the economy pulling down 2x that!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2008 11:26:54 AM
Author: Beacon
THis is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If they do use private jets to fly parts around they are breathtakingly stupid. On the other hand, maybe this is why they are bankrupt, because they are breathtakingly stupid.

No it is government who is stupid that forced them to go to JIT supplies because they tax parts as property and cost them billions in taxes.
When JIT breaks down they need parts right away.
Someone mentioned FedEx and commercial airplanes they use them also but it isn''t quick enough some times.
Are the jets abused no doubt they are but they are also used for stuff that is extremely critical.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2008 10:52:35 AM
Author: geckodani

Not to mention that even if they declare bankruptcy, those hard earned pensions could be reduced or even eliminated.


I'm not a fan of bailing them out, at ALL. I think it would be a waste of money. But I also think that the ramifications of the Big 3 going under would be greater than people realize.

No good solutions seem to be forthcoming.


Regardless of the cost of flying a personal jet, just the image it projects - of needless waste, does a lot of PR damage to them, and their credibility.

The entire management teams needs to be replaced.
But if they go under this country is going to be torn apart the likes of which we haven't seen since the civil war.
3 million jobs gone, entire towns and cities down for the count.
If this country is going to recover it has to be manufacturing that pulls it out.

If they go under the federal government is obligated to pay the pensions at the current rate up to $40k a year.
Either way we the people are going to pay for them.

 

[Beacon]

And Honda is exempt from this tax law?

The point is the US auto industry cannot run it's business. Blame the government, that's a joke. They need to become much smaller, better run companies and correct their cost structures so they can be profitable.

Don't just replace management. The unions are very much at fault too. They need to back off. Watching all the proceedings made me realize how pathetic the US auto industry is.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2008 1:28:01 PM
Author: Beacon
And Honda is exempt from this tax law?


The point is the US auto industry cannot run it's business. Blame the government, that's a joke. They need to become much smaller, better run companies and correct their cost structures so they can be profitable.


Don't just replace management. The unions are very much at fault too. They need to back off. Watching all the proceedings made me realize how pathetic the US auto industry is.

They use JIT also and they have private jets on standby also.
They have flown them in to get parts.
Honda gets around it by setting up factories to produce parts near the plants.
Because they have fewer plants they can do that.
The big 3 can not afford to do that on the same scale as it would take to many small plants where fewer large plants are much cheaper.
Also the foreign owned plants are newer and much more efficient than most of the big 3 plants because of big 3 management not spending the money needed to keep them up to date.
The Japanese plants upgrade technology every year.
They can also choose to build plants in tax friendly states where the big 3 is stuck.

 

[Beacon]

Date: 11/20/2008 1:35:39 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/20/2008 1:28:01 PM
Author: Beacon
And Honda is exempt from this tax law?


The point is the US auto industry cannot run it''s business. Blame the government, that''s a joke. They need to become much smaller, better run companies and correct their cost structures so they can be profitable.


Don''t just replace management. The unions are very much at fault too. They need to back off. Watching all the proceedings made me realize how pathetic the US auto industry is.

They use JIT also and they have private jets on standby also.
They have flown them in to get parts.
Honda gets around it by setting up factories to produce parts near the plants.
Because they have fewer plants they can do that.
The big 3 can not afford to do that on the same scale as it would take to many small plants where fewer large plants are much cheaper.
Also the foreign owned plants are newer and much more efficient than most of the big 3 plants because of big 3 management not spending the money needed to keep them up to date.
The Japanese plants upgrade technology every year.
They can also choose to build plants in tax friendly states where the big 3 is stuck.

So given all this inefficiency and incompetence, we the tax payer should bail them out and perpetuate this foolishness?

And, really, how do you know what Honda does with their corporate jets?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2008 1:53:08 PM
Author: Beacon


And, really, how do you know what Honda does with their corporate jets?

Because I loaded the parts into a company car and drove them to the airport and handed them off to Honda employees.
Which is also the same way I know about the big 3 doing the same thing.
A friend of mine who still works there does the same every couple months.

If you want to know what the parts were that I took to the airport they were fairing fasteners for the goldwing plant but they do the same for the auto plants everyone does.

 

[Beacon]

I don't buy any of this.

Further, watching the players beg for money was eye opening. I'll never buy an American car from those guys! Both sides are selfish and overly greedy.

 

[stone_seeker]

I am adamantly opposed to this bailout in any form unless cost structure is chopped down in a Chapter 11 proceeding.

This is the biggest joke. To see congress put on a charade for the american people with all the anger and yelling yesterday and then to see them close to possibly voting on a bill was an outrage. I couldnt belive my ears when CNBC said some bi-partisan bill had been drafted.

American people need to start getting a lot angrier. This will be a huge waste of money and I refuse to subsidize some union guy''s job who make $80 and hour building a crap product that no one wants.

 

[strmrdr]

I think a lot of us can agree that this is a positive step in the right direction...
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wow-common-sence-from-dem-congress-critters-re-automakers.100392/

 

[crown1]

just to add this to the mix: toyota had a twenty some percent loss in sales in october and is laying off employees in at least two plants.

 

[purrfectpear]

You should see the Long Beach harbor. Toyota and Mercedes have leased as much land as was available. New cars are parked for miles. It''s a sea of cars.

 

[starsapphire]

My husband heard Michael Moore last night on Larry King saying something about one of the Big 3 building an SUV plant in St. Petersburg RUSSIA????? Has anyone heard this ???????? They are evidentally going global, so why the frick are they wanting AMERICANS to bail them out???????

 

[meresal]

Date: 11/20/2008 7:13:01 PM
Author: starsapphire
My husband heard Michael Moore last night on Larry King saying something about one of the Big 3 building an SUV plant in St. Petersburg RUSSIA????? Has anyone heard this ???????? They are evidentally going global, so why the frick are they wanting AMERICANS to bail them out???????

Haven''t read the article, but apparently it''s Ford.

http://kylekeeton.com/2008/05/russia-big-automobile-business-likes.html

 

[miraclesrule]

** sidebar

I am one hour into the Congressional hearings on the bailout, and I am still baffled at some of the members of congress. How do some of these folks get elected when they are unintelligible? Some of them can't even be understood. The gentleman from Dakota is still causing my head to explode. Can anybody even figure out what the guy said in his opening statement? I just know that my head is going to hurt once I am done listening to the entire 4 hours.

ETA: I am in favor of letting the Big Three fall on their own swords. They don't deserve to survive. All their employees should defect to Toyota.

 

[crown1]

Date: 11/21/2008 12:30:00 AM
Author: miraclesrule
** sidebar

I am one hour into the Congressional hearings on the bailout, and I am still baffled at some of the members of congress. How do some of these folks get elected when they are unintelligible? Some of them can''t even be understood. The gentleman from Dakota is still causing my head to explode. Can anybody even figure out what the guy said in his opening statement? I just know that my head is going to hurt once I am done listening to the entire 4 hours.

ETA: I am in favor of letting the Big Three fall on their own swords. They don''t deserve to survive. All their employees should defect to Toyota.

toyota is laying off in at least two locations

 

[movie zombie]

i''m liking the idea floating around the internet that the Big 3 go to Exxon and the rest for their bailout $. Exxon posted a big profit and the two industries are dependent upon each other.

movie zombie

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 11/21/2008 5:08:17 PM
Author: movie zombie
i''m liking the idea floating around the internet that the Big 3 go to Exxon and the rest for their bailout $. Exxon posted a big profit and the two industries are dependent upon each other.

movie zombie

That''s hysterical, because it will never happen! I think hell would freeze over first! Unless Exxon got ownership of them.....