August Vintage round to Distinctive Gems change in proportions and facet pattern

[Tourmaline]

The AVR proportions and facet pattern taught me what I wanted to find in an antique OEC. The flower pattern took my breath away. When Jonathan started adding lab grown alternatives, I know that some amount of the cutting moved to India. The proportions, and resultant facet pattern, of the Heritage lab grown diamonds is entirely different in character than those on the original natural diamond AVR. As all of them are cut to Jonathan’s specifications, I wonder why they differ so much. I see that the Heritage ones have a culet, but there are other differences. I also wonder if AVR natural diamonds cut now will have the older proportions or the newer ones. Thoughts?

Here’s a comparison (AVR natural diamond on the left, and Heritage lab grown European cut on the right):

 

[musicloveranthony]

I've noticed that shift also. I wonder how they compare visually

 

[Lookinagain]

That's very interesting. I'm curious to know the answer to what future natural AVR diamonds will look like.

 

[Rfisher]

Could it be because of GOG /August vintage/Distinctive disagreements of whom owned what? Maybe?

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Off topic, but what is the patterning on the right called? Is that considered a flower pattern, but less bubbly? Because that’s my preferred OEC patterning but I don’t know how to explain it!

 

[flyingpig]

AVRs typically have steeper pavilion than other old european brilliants. The result is the larger table reflection in the middle which shortens the arrows and produces bubbly appearance.
Also, since the pavilion in the AVR is relative steep, the pavilion main facets act as light return than as contrast. Assuming the two diamonds are taken in the same light condition, you can see the diamond on the right (which has shallow pavilion) has more black/dark arrows (pavilion mains acting as contrast than light return) than the AVR does on the left.

 

[Slickk]

Great analysis @flyingpig thank you!! I personally prefer the left one as the right looks dark in the center (irl)?
Is the right stone the way he’s cutting them all or just the lab diamonds I wonder?

 

[lovedogs]

To my eye it looks like the faceting on the R stone is more of a classic OEC whereas the one on the left is closer to a transitional (not exactly but close).

 

[musicloveranthony]

I had one that looked like the stone on the left (I lost the ring in which it was set). I honestly didn't like it that much. It faced up very white, but it didn't have any notable on/off contrast patterning. It also didn't seem to have much/any dispersion. I had several people ask me if it was a sapphire - which is definitely not a compliment for a diamond that is notably expensive for its stats.

 

[PrismBaby]

Could it be because of GOG /August vintage/Distinctive disagreements of whom owned what? Maybe?

Hey there - just to bring a little clarity to this, the shift in facet patterning has nothing to do with Good Old Gold.

 

[josieKat]

AVRs could be found with both (and other) patterns, although the flower petal ones were maybe a bit more rounded than in that picture (I had one and thought the petals looked a bit like clovers). I had always thought it was in part table size too - mine was 46, but the more bubbly ones were closer to 50, and the ones that kind of looked like pizza slices in the middle were like 44.

 

[flyingpig]

Great analysis @flyingpig thank you!! I personally prefer the left one as the right looks dark in the center (irl)?
Is the right stone the way he’s cutting them all or just the lab diamonds I wonder?

I mentioned AVRs "typically" have steeper pavilion. (PA > 41.0)

There are AVRs with relatively shallow pavilion, like this one. (PA 40.7)

2.064ct I VS2 August Vintage European Cut 74763854

Diamond Details Measurements 7.81 - 7.86 x 5.28 Cut Grade Ideal Polish Ideal Symmetry Ideal Fluorescence Negligible Culet Pointed Report Click here to view this diamonds AGS Report. Table 0.5 Depth 0.673

www.distinctivegem.com

This one looks more like one on the right with a very small table reflection in the middle.

I guess @Rhino can cut whatever style the customer/he wants whether it is a natural or synthetic stone, as long as it is feasible. But who knows? Maybe he wants to reserve that distinctive bubbly look for the AVR only.

 

[Tourmaline]

Great analysis @flyingpig thank you!! I personally prefer the left one as the right looks dark in the center (irl)?
Is the right stone the way he’s cutting them all or just the lab diamonds I wonder?

I also prefer the left one. Other than not having a culet, I find the facet pattern beautiful. I don’t like the girdle reflection in the one on the right.

To my eye it looks like the faceting on the R stone is more of a classic OEC whereas the one on the left is closer to a transitional (not exactly but close).

I disagree with this. I think, other than not having a culet, the left one is classic OEC. I don’t like the thick and obvious girdle reflection in the one of the right, and the facets don’t look like OEC center facets to me.

 

[Rfisher]

Hey there - just to bring a little clarity to this, the shift in facet patterning has nothing to do with Good Old Gold.

Thank you for clarifying that
Good to know

 

[CrazyBirdLady]

Thank you so much for doing this post @Tourmaline . I noticed this as well and was very close to ordering a lab oec but the new pattern doesn't have the same appeal.

When I look at the newer style it looks like it was a round brilliant and its had a oec recut.

 

[ecf8503]

Perhaps @Rhino will chime in... love to hear his perspective!

 

[Cerulean]

The right looks less "sterile" to me. I love AVRs, but they lack some of the charm that draws me to many OECs for some reason

Maybe it's the kozibe and big culet on the right that I like. But I don't care for how dark the center is- having multiple "petals" go dark at once is not my favorite

I like features of both, I actually wish they could blend the two.

 

[Venti25]

I almost went with a lab avr (and there's one in my future anyway I've decided) as I like the kozibe effect but in the end went with mined which I don't regret as they have different flavours.

There has been variation through time from what I've observed. @diamondseeker2006 (hope you don't mind me tagging) has one of the most jaw dropping avrs I've seen and part of me wishes I saw more of these in stock when we were buying. It's also one reason I considered a cer for a time too, but I've been wanting an avr since they started being cut so avr it was!

 

[muesli]

This is my lab AVR:



The pattern seems to be the one to the left, got it last year and loooove it.

 

[Double E]

This is my lab AVR:



The pattern seems to be the one to the left, got it last year and loooove it.

Beautiful! Also glad to see this thread. The first thing come to mind when viewing these two slightly different cuts is those reflections around the table of the right side stone (some lines connecting those cutlet reflections), is that the girdle reflection that being mentioned here? I wonder can this be eliminated.

 

[m1918]

I’ve actually noticed some of the lab AVCs look a bit different as well…I wonder if it’s just growing pains?

 

[Tourmaline]

This is my lab AVR:



The pattern seems to be the one to the left, got it last year and loooove it.

Yes, it does appear to be the left pattern! Beautiful!

Beautiful! Also glad to see this thread. The first thing come to mind when viewing these two slightly different cuts is those reflections around the table of the right side stone (some lines connecting those cutlet reflections), is that the girdle reflection that being mentioned here? I wonder can this be eliminated.

Yes, it’s the girdle reflection, and the stones with that cut seem to have quite a thick faceted girdle.

I’ve actually noticed some of the lab AVCs look a bit different as well…I wonder if it’s just growing pains?

I wonder if it’s due to different cutters or simply the instructed dimensions.

 

[jaysonsmom]

I just took a picture of my Lab Heritage AVR. I had this custom cut to an exact carat weight (for sentimental reasons) and I specifically requested a visible culet, because I noticed that prior AVRs, while beautiful, did not resemble vintage OECs as much, and I really wanted a lab OEC. Here is a closeup of my ring taken this morning, I think it resembles the picture on the RIGHT more. I think custom means custom. Rhino can instruct his cutters to cut to either facet pattern depending on the client. I’m a happy customer, I got exactly what I requested.

 

[Cerulean]

I just took a picture of my Lab Heritage AVR. I had this custom cut to an exact carat weight (for sentimental reasons) and I specifically requested a visible culet, because I noticed that prior AVRs, while beautiful, did not resemble vintage OECs as much, and I really wanted a lab OEC. Here is a closeup of my ring taken this morning, I think it resembles the picture on the RIGHT more. I think custom means custom. Rhino can instruct his cutters to cut to either facet pattern depending on the client. I’m a happy customer, I got exactly what I requested.

Gorgeous!

 

[HS4S_2]

I just took a picture of my Lab Heritage AVR. I had this custom cut to an exact carat weight (for sentimental reasons) and I specifically requested a visible culet, because I noticed that prior AVRs, while beautiful, did not resemble vintage OECs as much, and I really wanted a lab OEC. Here is a closeup of my ring taken this morning, I think it resembles the picture on the RIGHT more. I think custom means custom. Rhino can instruct his cutters to cut to either facet pattern depending on the client. I’m a happy customer, I got exactly what I requested.

I have four Avrs on the way. One is purchased from a lovely member and the other three are custom cut to exact proportions. I also asked for this specific pattern for the 3 stone (one 8.3mm and 2 5.5mm). It is interesting to see what each person sees as a classic oec. Beautiful diamond!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

First of all, all natural diamond AVRs did not have the exact facet pattern of the picture on the left. There were variations.

My AVR was cut by Yoram within the parameters set by Jonathan. It has a tiny culet which was how Jon had many of them cut. I adore my stone and wouldn't trade it! But I think the new lab diamonds have a beautiful facet pattern, too!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Could it be because of GOG /August vintage/Distinctive disagreements of whom owned what? Maybe?

No, that is not the case. The patents are Jon's.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I almost went with a lab avr (and there's one in my future anyway I've decided) as I like the kozibe effect but in the end went with mined which I don't regret as they have different flavours.

There has been variation through time from what I've observed. @diamondseeker2006 (hope you don't mind me tagging) has one of the most jaw dropping avrs I've seen and part of me wishes I saw more of these in stock when we were buying. It's also one reason I considered a cer for a time too, but I've been wanting an avr since they started being cut so avr it was!

Just saw your post! Thank you so much! You are correct that there has always been variation. That's a good thing! No cookie cutter stones as some have said in the past!

 

[Rhino]

Greetings my friends. <3

Just to address the points/questions.

I've noticed that shift also. I wonder how they compare visually

There are videos comparing of which forum rules prevent me from sharing. :-/

Could it be because of GOG /August vintage/Distinctive disagreements of whom owned what? Maybe?

As mentioned nope. The matter has been resolved to the satisfaction of all parties concerned.

Off topic, but what is the patterning on the right called? Is that considered a flower pattern, but less bubbly? Because that’s my preferred OEC patterning but I don’t know how to explain it!

I have begun calling these by differing names as each has its own personality. I'll expound below.

AVRs typically have steeper pavilion than other old european brilliants. The result is the larger table reflection in the middle which shortens the arrows and produces bubbly appearance.
Also, since the pavilion in the AVR is relative steep, the pavilion main facets act as light return than as contrast. Assuming the two diamonds are taken in the same light condition, you can see the diamond on the right (which has shallow pavilion) has more black/dark arrows (pavilion mains acting as contrast than light return) than the AVR does on the left.

Yes and no my friend. The key to the AVR from its inception was *edge to edge* light performance in the OEC cutting style which, till these were cut were completely non existent. The patterning of OEC's over the course of its existence has not been of any particular kind of style. They vary all over the board. In fact a symposium was held in Vegas on defining exactly what an OEC is. There is but 1 facet set that sets them apart and that is the *short* lower half facets.

With regards to the two different patterns i've been focusing on the pattern on the left I've come to call the August Vintage Daisy and the other The August Vintage Lotus. These are the 2 flower patterns most closely associated with those diamonds. The reason for the Lotus was actually inspired by keeping to GIA standards of an OEC that the original AVR didn't. Ie. GIA's definition of an OEC embraces ...

• Table < 53%
• Crown angle => 40 degrees
• Lower half length =< 60%
• Culet slightly large or larger

And must meet 3 of these 4 criteria. The original AVR's didn't have crown angles this steep nor for the most part did they have culets. So... the newer Lotus design does incorporate each of these 4 elements into the design but I did alter other facet measurements not mentioned in GIA's definition (pavilion angles, upper halves, etc.) and keep the ASET perfectly solid like the original design. The new design *does not have a darker center* but illuminates equally as bright as the original. I can cut either design on demand and some have requested a particular one or not but I have been toying with the idea of separate links/pages. One for the AV Daisy and one for the AV Lotus. What you guys think?

Warm regards,
Rhino

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

IMHO post a photo of each side by side and then say “click here for daisy” and “click here for lotus.”