Asian Jewelry Stores?

[tluv]

So I''m looking to buy an engagement ring and with the help of people on Yelp.com, I''ve checked out Derco Jewelers in San Francisco. Decent prices, great customer service. My close friend recently bought a diamond from Jade Galore, www.jadegalore.com, a jewelry store with locations in Chinatown SF and Cupertino. For an equivalent diamond (Cut/Clarity/Color/Size), we found that Jade Galore was significantly cheaper (30%) than any "American" store. He paid cash and received the diamond, without tax and a free platinum setting (including certificate for the rock). Its a quality diamond, it appraised for a lot more than he bought it for. I hear that this is the case at a lot of Asian jewelry stores.

My question, how can Jade Galore charge such a low price? Does this sound shady to anyone, are they selling blood diamonds? It sounds too good to be true.

Help!

 

[FireGoddess]

I don''t know, and your friend may have lucked out.

A friend of mine (he is actually Chinese) wanted to buy his wife a diamond and ruby pendant for some occasion. Went looking in SF Chinatown. At one store (don''t know the name) they quoted him some ridiculous price for what the piece looked like it was worth, and he said no thanks. Then came another offer, 25% less. No thanks. Another offer, 30% less. No thanks. 50% less, no thanks. At that point he was like, ''okay, if they''re willing to drop the price that much, what is it REALLY worth, quality wise?'' He walked out and bought her something somewhere else.

I think possibly that good deals may be found, but not easily and you may end up getting what you pay for, for better or worse.

I don''t have any personal experience, just my friend''s.

 

[denverappraiser]

No, they probably are not selling blood diamonds although you ask a valid question. There are several assumptions that I would suggest you look into:

#1 The appraisal. An appraisal report has as much to say about the appraiser as it does about the merchandise. Taken out of context, appraisal values mean nothing. Anyone who wants to can call themselves an appraiser and they can say whatever they wish. The key is that you don’t have to care. If you know who the appraiser is and you have questions about their value conclusions, first read the fine print of the report. If that doesn’t answer your questions, ring them up and discuss it with them. If you can’t figure out who the appraiser is or you are unable to get an answer, ignore the conclusion in it’s entirety.

#2 Identical quality. Diamond grading is remarkably complicated. You describe a stone as being identical in cut, color, clarity, and size. Really? Who says so. The same standards apply to the grader as to the appraiser and doubly so if they are the same individual. Not all graders use the same scales and they don’t all apply their scales the same way. A stone that one grader would call an SI1, others might call an I1. Differences of 4 grades or more aren’t especially unusual.

#3 Competitive stores. It’s fairly easy to find a store that’s a bad deal, that’s run by someone of a different ethnicity and to generalize that all stores that are different from your own are a bad deal. This is ridiculous on it’s face. It’s not the ethnicity or nationality of the owner or the neighborhood of a store that makes one better than another. Excellent merchants come in all colors and set up shop in all sorts of communities. So do crooks.

#4 Sales Tax. Sales taxes are a relationship between the merchant and the government. Trust me, no store would be charging you tax unless they were legally required to do so. This means that there are two choices for a store that’s not charging you tax. Either they aren’t required to do it or they are cheating on their taxes. If they’re willing to cheat the taxman, I would take this as a very bad sign when deciding if they are likely to be cheating YOU. If they’re not required to collect tax while their neighbor is, they should be prepared to explain exactly why they’re exempt. If it sounds fishy, call the state tax office and ask them about it. I'm sure they have someone who would be thrilled to discuss the matter.

#5 Blood/conflict diamonds. All diamonds legally imported into the US since 2002 have been covered by what’s known as the Kimberley process. This, for example, would include all stones graded by GIA, AGS, EGL-USA, IGI, EGL International, HRD or any other lab in the US or any of the other signatory countries. These days it would be difficult to buy a ‘blood diamond’ in the United States even if you wanted one.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Viphan01]

Hi,

I am Asian and I know for the fact that these Asian jewelry stores do sale MOSTLY GIA stones, MOTLY F VVS1 stones at a very decent price (compatible or slightly higher than some internet price but definitely cheaper than American stores). Rarely, you would see a EGL cert and a few VS diamonds. Most Asian wouldn''t want to buy anything less than an FVVS1. The only drawback from buying there is you have to either pay cash or write them a check (acceptable only if you know them). There is an upcharge for credit card payer; or, even worse, they won''t "discount" the diamond if you pay by credit card and the charge must be limited (for example, maximum $5000). I''ve looked at these diamonds. The quality is great. I don''t think their diamonds are not legitimate. They just mark up less...

 

[denverappraiser]

The database here has 137 stones in a search for 1.00-1.05/F/VVS1. Every one of them is GIA graded and every one of those dealers is probably what you’re calling American, although I suspect we have at least a few ethnic Asians and at least one of the dealers is based in Canada. Prices range from just over $7000 to just under $13000 and they are fairly evenly distributed between about a dozen dealers who advertise here. That is to say, there is no obvious pattern that the cheap ones come from one place and the expensive ones come from another...they all offer something of an assortment. Which one is the best deal? The Rap price is the same on all of them ($10,400/ct.) and there are plenty of appraisers who value things strictly as a function of Rap so that would suggest that the cheapest one is the best value, right?

Cash as a term of sale is a bit unusual but I certainly understand it. Credit card companies charge a processing fee in the neighborhood of 2% and checks have the risk of bouncing. What raised the red flag for this was the connection with the lack of sales tax. Taxable sales are taxable no matter how the payment is made. The difference is that cash is harder for the tax collectors to trace and is therefore an incentive for the scofflaws.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[bacid]

i haven''t looked at diamonds in asian stores since i live in a small town and those don''t exist.

however as i''m asian and i''ve dealt with asian stores in north america and asia i can tell you that the whole "cash only, no tax" thing is very common with all asian vendors.

it is true, they evade taxes, but don''t assume that this means they are a shady dealer.

also keep in mind that if you pay cash, no tax, don''t expect a receipt/return, or upgrade.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/22/2007 11:22:04 AM
Author:
it is true, they evade taxes, but don't assume that this means they are a shady dealer.

If deliberately and repeatedly committing a felony in order to gain a competitive advantage doesn’t make them a shady dealer, what does it take?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[nacreoni]

Date: 7/22/2007 11:28:07 AM
If deliberately and repeatedly committing a felony in order to gain a competitive advantage doesn’t make them a shady dealer, what does it take?

Taking advantage of customers.

Do you pay use tax on your out of state internet purchases? The vast majority of Americans don't. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the majorty of pricescope members didn't pay use tax on their internet diamond purchases. Does that call their characters into question?

Not everyone has the same amount of respect from the government, especially when they've had the opportunity to deal with governments that deserve even less respect than the American one. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the respect they give their customers.

 

[denverappraiser]

Yes, I do pay my taxes but actually I’m talking about the merchant, not the customer so use taxes don’t apply here any more then whether they are making their child support payments or have a drug habit. This is not a morality discussion. It’s not even a tax discussion. The customer is extending a fair amount of trust to the merchant, not the other way around, as evidenced by the refusal to take cheques. I don’t blame them for that but the customer is relying on the merchant for accuracy of grading, for an assurance that the merchandise isn’t stolen, that it is properly set and undamaged, that the lab reports presented are genuine and that they relate to the stone being discussed, that there are no important details beyond what’s included on the reports presented, etc. If you’ve conceded the point that ‘cash with no paperwork’ policy is primarily about tax evasion and that they’re willing to lie to gain an advantage, the only question is trying to decide who they are willing to cheat and who they won’t. Cheating customers pays way better than cheating the taxman and it's possible to do both at the same time so it’s not like they don’t have an incentive. The argument that they are happy to cheat the other guy (in this case the government) because they deserve it and then to pass the savings on to their valued clients if full of logical fallacy. Why trust them when they've admitted to being liars? Because they’re Asian? Because the story that ‘American’ owned stores are greedy seems so plausible?

My comments only apply to stores located in the US and only for transactions where they would otherwise be required to collect taxes. Immigrant merchants are expected to comply with US law regardless of the rules where they came from.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[nacreoni]

Date: 7/22/2007 1:28:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser
If you’ve conceded the point that ‘cash with no paperwork’ policy is primarily about tax evasion and that they’re willing to lie to gain an advantage, the only question is trying to decide who they are willing to cheat and who they won’t. Cheating customers pays way better than cheating the taxman and it's possible to do both at the same time so it’s not like they don’t have an incentive. The argument that they are happy to cheat the other guy (in this case the government) because they deserve it and then to pass the savings on to their valued clients if full of logical fallacy.

Considering the fact that the vast vast majority of Americans also cheat the taxman by neglecting to pay use tax, but wouldn't dream of trying to walk out of a jewelry store with a five finger discount, I would say it isn't a logical fallacy at all.

It's not a matter of incentive. It's a matter of respect and there are plenty of reasons to respect the customer more than the government.

Your absolutely right that the question is who they are willing to cheat and who they won't, but this kind of question isn't unique to cheating. What about who merchants are willing to give a good deal to and who they will drive a hard bargain with? Is it a logical fallacy that a merchant would negotiate a hard bargain with a supplier, only to pass the savings on to their customers? Not at all. In fact, it's expected. Since you've conceded the point that this is not an issue of morality then why should cheating be any different than bargaining?

Date: 7/22/2007 1:28:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Why trust them when they've admitted to being liars? Because they’re Asian? Because the story that ‘American’ owned stores are greedy seems so plausible?

Why not trust them? I trust my pharmacist despite the fact that he did me a favor by filling my regular prescription on Sunday without first calling my doctor's office like he was supposed to with this prescription. Why should trust towards tax evading Asian jewelers be any different? Because they're Asian? Because the story that anyone who doesn't conduct business by the letter of the law is a fly by night conman that's going to rip me off seems so plausible?

Should I stop ordering pizza from the local pizza parlor because they get me my pie in 25 minutes when I damn well know it should take at least 30 minutes if the delivery boy were obeying the local traffic laws?

 

[denverappraiser]

Again, the fact that consumers cheat on their taxes has very little impact on the merchant because the merchant has no need to extend any trust to the consumer and there is no reliance required. The reverse is not the case. The consumer is required to trust the merchant and shoppers must use whatever information is at their disposal to decide if this trust is deserved. It isn’t always, and the people who don’t deserve it always seem to say they do. If a shopper has credible evidence that the merchant is feeding a serious drug habit or running a car theft ring, for example, I would consider this to be a bad sign despite the fact that it has nothing directly to do with the transaction at hand. The reverse is not the case. Selling things to junkies is just fine.

Special note: I’ve never heard of the store listed in the original question and I know nothing at all about them. I am specifically NOT suggesting that they are tax cheats, druggies, deadbeat dads, car thieves or even upstanding citizens. I simply don’t know. This is an academic question of whether evidence that a merchant has been cheating in one area, in this case sales taxes, can and should be taken as evidence that they are more likely to cheat someone else, in particular a prospective shopper. I contend that it is.

How to decide who to trust is a serious problem in this business. One of the easiest ways to make money in the diamond business is by misrepresenting product to people who don’t know the right questions to ask or who lack the expertise to recognize the problems. This can be done by simply omitting important information or it can be as bold as presenting counterfeit paperwork or even delivering fake stones. There are lots of choices in between and this gray area can be quite profitable. Unfortunately it’s a tough decision and there are lots of people who are suggesting that you should trust them over their competitors. In the end, it’s necessary to choose one over the others and this decision must be made with less than absolute information available.

In my own shopping, the default answer is to not extend trust until evidence is available to suggest that it’s deserved. The better the evidence the more I’m inclined to believe what they tell me. The lower the risk, usually meaning the lower the price of the item at hand, the easier I am to persuade. The burden of proof is on them. This applies to merchants of all ethnicities and it doesn’t even matter what they are trying to sell me. Yes, I am a difficult customer.

Yes, I think you should patronize a pizza service that obeys the traffic laws. The pressure to deliver in 25min instead of 30 is a danger to both the community and their workers. Choose your meal based on the quality of the food, the price, the doorside manners of the employees, nutritional content, the store location or whatever else you consider important but having your shopping habits encourage them to become road hazards is a disservice to us all.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Jelly]

Isn't it possible that they are just discounting the diamond another 7% (or whatever tax amt). Do you assume that they are trying to cheat you just because they are Asian? I've seen other retail stores have "no tax sales." Speaking for myself, I find the tone of your post racist.

Btw, I'm "American" but also Asian.

 

[sugarplum]

Hi All,

I''ve visited a few Asian jewelry stores and wanted to clarify that when they say "no tax" it doesn''t necessarily mean they''re cheating Uncle Sam. "No tax" for you the customer but the jewelry store still pays the tax to the gov''t. It''s like they''re giving you a 8% discount (or however much sales tax is in your state).

Just like how Orchard Supply Hardware stores sometimes have "no sales tax" promotions. Instead of the customer paying tax, OSH will pay it. Same thing with the jewelry store. It''s a way for them to offer you a discount and make the sale without reducing the value of the stone or piece you''re purchasing.

I can''t vouch for every store because there very well could be shady things going on (not just Asian stores but any store out there); however, the Asian stores that I''ve visited have seemed legit. I personally haven''t purchased anything from the stores. I was accompanying a friend in her shopping and all the stones shown to her were GIA certified.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/23/2007 12:38:20 PM
Author: Jelly
Isn't it possible that they are just discounting the diamond another 7% (or whatever tax amt). Do you assume that they are trying to cheat you just because they are Asian? I've seen other retail stores have 'no tax sales.' Speaking for myself, I find the tone of your post racist.


Btw, I'm 'American' but also Asian.

I assume you’re not talking about me. There have been several racist tinged things said here but mostly they are folks suggesting that ‘Asian’ stores are importantly different in deals from any other ‘American’ stores, a point that I’ve been arguing against. In practice, I don’t think anyone else is trying to be racist either, but I’ll let them defend themselves on that point.

Do you disagree that payment terms of “Cash only, no receipt, no sale tax” is not a good sign? Does it make any difference who owns the store or where it's located?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

I have to agree with Neil - cash only + no sales tax always comes across as questionable to me, or "shady" as the OP described. In general, what seems like a great deal is most likely due to large differences in pricing that result from what can seem like small differences in cut, color, clarity, and size.

 

[bacid]

i didn't think my reply which spark such uproar.

first off, i don't know why you think "denverappraiser" is racist.

the point he's making is 100% valid. although i don't think a shop is shady because they dont pay tax (and this is probably because in asia it's very common), i do see his point of view.

to the poster who said they still pay tax and they are merely giving you a % discount. i can assure you this is not true.

and finally, if you want MY opinion as to whether or not you should buy from this store.. i'd say NO, simply because with no receipt, no trace, you have NO RECOURSE if whatever you bought doesn't turn out as you expect.

with the amount of money an engagement ring costs, you might as well spend the extra money and buy from a reputable online vendor.

 

[nacreoni]

Date: 7/23/2007 11:32:02 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Again, the fact that consumers cheat on their taxes has very little impact on the merchant because the merchant has no need to extend any trust to the consumer and there is no reliance required. The reverse is not the case. The consumer is required to trust the merchant and shoppers must use whatever information is at their disposal to decide if this trust is deserved. It isn’t always, and the people who don’t deserve it always seem to say they do. If a shopper has credible evidence that the merchant is feeding a serious drug habit or running a car theft ring, for example, I would consider this to be a bad sign despite the fact that it has nothing directly to do with the transaction at hand. The reverse is not the case. Selling things to junkies is just fine.

First of all, I didn't say anything about the impact of consumers on merchants. I was speaking about the impact of cheating on use tax on trustworthiness. The person that neglects use tax as a consumer is also a merchant in their respective trade. It doesn't make any difference whether the merchant is cheating as a consumer or as a merchant. So your distinction is irrelevant.

Second of all I completely disagree with your notion that merchants have no need to extend trust to consumers. Retail merchants very much need to rely on trusting their customers; Especially when accepting noncash payment. Moreover, just allowing people from the street into the store is a big risk for merchants. Merchants are just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable, than customers. I'd like to see you tell the owner of the jewelry shop down the street who got robbed at gun point that "selling to junkies is just fine".

Date: 7/23/2007 11:32:02 AM
Author: denverappraiser
In my own shopping, the default answer is to not extend trust until evidence is available to suggest that it’s deserved. The better the evidence the more I’m inclined to believe what they tell me. The lower the risk, usually meaning the lower the price of the item at hand, the easier I am to persuade. The burden of proof is on them. This applies to merchants of all ethnicities and it doesn’t even matter what they are trying to sell me. Yes, I am a difficult customer.

Apparently not as difficult as I am. I never put myself in a position where I need to depend on a subjective judge of character. I take my gems to labs. I insist on personally examining the evidence supporting the certification and, if possible, I even interrogate the examining gemologist. I would never base a significant purchase on something as trivial as whether or not the person I'm dealing with correctly files their tax work.

Date: 7/23/2007 11:32:02 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Yes, I think you should patronize a pizza service that obeys the traffic laws. The pressure to deliver in 25min instead of 30 is a danger to both the community and their workers. Choose your meal based on the quality of the food, the price, the doorside manners of the employees, nutritional content, the store location or whatever else you consider important but having your shopping habits encourage them to become road hazards is a disservice to us all.

Yes, but does their status as a law breaker have implications on the quality of their food? After all, you weren't arguing that shopping at tax evading merchants is bad because of the reduction in public funds, were you?

Date: 7/23/2007 4:45:36 PM
Author: bacid
and finally, if you want MY opinion as to whether or not you should buy from this store.. i'd say NO, simply because with no receipt, no trace, you have NO RECOURSE if whatever you bought doesn't turn out as you expect.

It's easy to say that when there aren't any prices on the table, but I think we all know the reality is that whether or not buying from a merchant with no receipt is worthwhile depends on how much you stand to save. Of course, it also depends on how much you stand to lose, but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't buy it (it depends).

 

[denverappraiser]

I agree, merchants are definitely taking a physical and financial risk by opening there doors and they do need to make an assessment of who they are willing to allow onto the premises as well as limiting how their visitors are allowed to behave. Saying that it’s ok to sell things to junkies definitely doesn’t mean that it’s ok to be murdered by one. Customers can and occasionally do turn out to be murderers and thieves, even ones that otherwise looked reasonable.

You are making a subjective judgment every time you buy anything from anyone. Your choice of grocer, your choice of mechanic, clothier, and doctor are all decisions where you are picking one provider over their competitors based on incomplete information and for which you are relying, at least in part, on information directly from the merchant about themselves and their products and services in order to make the decision. Their credibility and the credibility of the information they provide is an important issue.

I didn’t bring up the pizza topic, you did but, yes, I think dispatching bad drivers makes the entire restaurant less trustworthy. I’m much happier with merchants, especially food providers, who are compulsive about details. It’s very difficult as a diner to tell if the cook is behaving as I would wish and I’m relying on the management to provide appropriate supervision. This is based on my assessment of the reputation of the restaurant and it’s another one of those subjective judgments. Since I don’t have 100% complete information I have to rely on clues. I take it as a good sign when the drivers have clean uniforms and park contentiously, even though this has nothing directly to do with the food quality because it tells me that management is paying attention to the little things and that they’re training their staff. Careful driving falls into this same category, especially if there’s some reason to believe that it’s company policy rather than just a single lucky hire. It doesn’t mean that the food is any better, but I think it increases my chances. As I develop a history with them, this sort of thing becomes less important because I then have direct experience with the food but even then, an important change in these ‘superficial’ types of things would give me pause and be a cause for concern.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Jelly]

Date: 7/23/2007 4:45:36 PM
Author: bacid
i didn''t think my reply which spark such uproar.

first off, i don''t know why you think ''denverappraiser'' is racist.

the point he''s making is 100% valid. although i don''t think a shop is shady because they dont pay tax (and this is probably because in asia it''s very common), i do see his point of view.

to the poster who said they still pay tax and they are merely giving you a % discount. i can assure you this is not true.

and finally, if you want MY opinion as to whether or not you should buy from this store.. i''d say NO, simply because with no receipt, no trace, you have NO RECOURSE if whatever you bought doesn''t turn out as you expect.

with the amount of money an engagement ring costs, you might as well spend the extra money and buy from a reputable online vendor.

I think there''s some misunderstanding here. I didn''t call DenverAppraiser a racist and I apologize to him if that''s how he took it. I was offended that the original poster titled their post "asian jewelry stores" and questioned their legitimacy, whether they sell "blood diamonds," cheating on their taxes, etc . I can''t defend this particular store, but it''s sad to think that just because the owners are asian, the original poster had to classify all Asian Jewelers in a trustworthy/untrustworthy category.