Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

[HollyS]

How about instead of giving people tax credits for having children they put that money back into the system? I don't see why I should pay for other people to have children AND send them to school. Besides, teachers chose to be teachers and knew what they were getting into. I don't think they're saints in any form, they're just people who like to teach and that is their job. I've never understood the glorifying of teachers....

eta: I highly doubt that in and out burger employees have the luxury of a salary, stable job, health insurance, retirement, vacation days and paid sick time off. They're also not making much over CA minimum wage either.

**grabs popcorn and waits for Swimmer to arrive**

I was thinking much the same thing, but Karen and Danny beat Swimmer to the punch.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="JulieNProbably more like the feminist movement gave women an option between home and work. You have educated women with more options opting out of home and children entirely, while uneducated women have more kids.[/quote]

not true.

women went into the work force not because of the feminist movement [which was a good thing, imo] but because of economic need. look at the statistics for the last 30 years when household income went down and more women went to work. women had to go to work in order to supplement the family income. wages have decreased over that time period, not increased. hours worked have increased, wages have not. many lower income women, i.e. uneducated women, work 3 jobs in order to survive. this means they are no longer available in the home. no longer in the home means lack of supervision. kids turn to gangs as a family substitute. and classrooms become a scapegoat for what is wrong. over simplified but gets the point across.

want to have a better education system? value children and value teachers. instead, we underserve children [the future of this country] and we treat teachers as if they were babysitters.

MoZo

 

[mrscushion]

 

[CherryBlossom]

I don't know where I would be or what I would be today if it hadn't been for my teachers. Considering everything they have to deal with, they deserve at least double the pay they get.

!!!!

I can't stand all the people who complain about them.

 

[CherryBlossom]

not true.

women went into the work force not because of the feminist movement [which was a good thing, imo] but because of economic need. look at the statistics for the last 30 years when household income went down and more women went to work. women had to go to work in order to supplement the family income.

Yup yup, the largest influx of women into the work force occurred during the WWII era because women had to work outside of the home in order to 1) meet the demand for labor because many men were at war 2) supplemental the missing income of their "men" at war. WWII allowed for women to take positions that were not the norm prior to this period (factory/industrial work) many women remained in these types of jobs after the war and we have not looked back since.

want to have a better education system? value children and value teachers. instead, we underserve children [the future of this country] and we treat teachers as if they were babysitters.

MoZo

 

[CherryBlossom]

Please read your own words again. You're not "paying" anyone to have children.

As far as public eduction, it's like PUBLIC anything. You pay TAXES because you live in a SOCIETY.

As far as your suggestion that receiving fair compensation for working is a "luxury," um, please; that's just silly.

That's not what Ayn (Paul/Ron) Rand taught m!! Everyone out for themselves!!!

 

[natascha]

Just trying to understand here. I live i Sweden and teachers here grumble about their pay which I do not really understand. From what I have read their conditions are quite different from the US, they have pretty amazing job security, very large amounts of planning time in their schedule (tex they have class usually 2 -4 hours a day, rest is planning,etc), Sweden has a very strong socialist bend so they have very low or nonexistent costs for healthcare, childcare, etc, they do not pay for class materials, etc and they earn a median of 46000 usd a year. Their pay is comparable to many other profession requiring higher education but they are constantly talking about what a horrible pay they have and comparing it to the pay of doctors, lawyers and CEOs, completely disregarding that these professions usually work quite a lot more hours and at least in Sweden the education leading to these jobs are a lot harder for the majority of the population to achieve.

My fiances mother is a kinder garden teacher, his brother a high school teacher and I have friends that are also teachers so I have an acceptable knowledge of their working conditions meanwhile I am working my butt of doing a law degree and a business degree at the same time and they don't understand why I will probably have a higher pay then they do.

I am a firm believer in that teachers need more respect, that they are an extremely important part of society and should have more power but I can't accept that they should earn the same as a doctor or a CEO.

Oh I also find it quite funny that they have a big problem with what CEO earns tex but are fine with the pay that athletes, singers and actors get.

 

[kimchi]

As an Elementary teacher, I do not expect the pay of a CEO. I am not in charge of an entire entity such as a school, just my one bit of it--my classroom. However, I do think teacher pay is quite far below where it needs to be.

So, what are the current "best practices" expectations of teachers? ( International standard quality) Teachers are now expected to set up, maintain, and keep current a classroom website. They are expected to provide individualized, differentiated instruction for each student, particularly in reading and writing, and to assess each student frequently. They are expected to set up a child centered classroom community that nurtures and brings out the integrity in each child, as well as propels the children's learning ever forward. They are expected to be polite and professional to staff and parents at all times and in all places, even as some parents are rude and discourteous to them. They are expected to enthusiastically pursue professional development opportunities as they arise, and then nearly immediately apply what they have learned in their classrooms and share their learning with colleagues.

Many people see that we work shortened days and have summers "off". It is true, we are paid for fewer hours and are only required to be on campus from generally half an hour before school to half an hour after school. Summers are often spent preparing for the next school year and taking classes to keep up to date with the latest best practices and curriculum trends.

I have said for many years that teachers should be working regular business hours. For parents, seeing teachers leave work at 3:30 is a hard thing when they so often have to work very long hours for their own paychecks. However, if you are going to ask teachers to work longer hours, you will need to pay them accordingly. This then gives the teachers the paid time to do the little things like keep up a classroom website, answer emails, put more thought into lessons, take more care in their record keeping and apply new techniques in their classrooms. Most teachers do tend to work longer hours in any case, often showing up quite a bit earlier than they are required to do.

 

[ksinger]

Just trying to understand here. I live i Sweden and teachers here grumble about their pay which I do not really understand. From what I have read their conditions are quite different from the US, they have pretty amazing job security, very large amounts of planning time in their schedule (tex they have class usually 2 -4 hours a day, rest is planning,etc), Sweden has a very strong socialist bend so they have very low or nonexistent costs for healthcare, childcare, etc, they do not pay for class materials, etc and they earn a median of 46000 usd a year. Their pay is comparable to many other profession requiring higher education but they are constantly talking about what a horrible pay they have and comparing it to the pay of doctors, lawyers and CEOs, completely disregarding that these professions usually work quite a lot more hours and at least in Sweden the education leading to these jobs are a lot harder for the majority of the population to achieve.

My fiances mother is a kinder garden teacher, his brother a high school teacher and I have friends that are also teachers so I have an acceptable knowledge of their working conditions meanwhile I am working my butt of doing a law degree and a business degree at the same time and they don't understand why I will probably have a higher pay then they do.

I am a firm believer in that teachers need more respect, that they are an extremely important part of society and should have more power but I can't accept that they should earn the same as a doctor or a CEO.

Oh I also find it quite funny that they have a big problem with what CEO earns tex but are fine with the pay that athletes, singers and actors get.

Sweden sounds delightful and very civilized.

But in the US, teachers have little power, less respect, and are the absolute LAST people to be consulted about matters of education, after state legislators (policially and ideologically driven and usually in the pocket of the business "leaders"), business "leaders" (clueless about education and bottom-line driven and big fans of "social Darwinism"), local school boards (politically and ideologically driven, and completely spineless when confronted with the helicoptor parent du jour), and finally school admins (politically driven and (around here at least) usually not required to have taught in a REAL classroom for more than 2 years and then not in a "core" subject like English, math, science or history: typing teacher is good enough, that or phys-ed. )

And right now, they are the last line between us the poverty we've allowed to flourish in the name of ideology, and that we desperately wish to ignore a bit longer. So we bash the schools and point the finger at the teachers when they can't save society from itself. It's far easier than addressing the real problems.

And no one is saying that teachers should make what a CEO makes - although the wisdom of celebrating and condoning CEOs making 500 times more than their average employee is certainly up for debate, (but I digress), but a decent living wage commensurate with the level of education and responsibility they are saddled with? Yes. And a bit of input in the job that they are the actual day-to-day experts in? Yes. And that is absolutely NOT the case in many many states in the US.

 

[ksinger]

As an Elementary teacher, I do not expect the pay of a CEO. I am not in charge of an entire entity such as a school, just my one bit of it--my classroom. However, I do think teacher pay is quite far below where it needs to be.

So, what are the current "best practices" expectations of teachers? ( International standard quality) Teachers are now expected to set up, maintain, and keep current a classroom website. They are expected to provide individualized, differentiated instruction for each student, particularly in reading and writing, and to assess each student frequently. They are expected to set up a child centered classroom community that nurtures and brings out the integrity in each child, as well as propels the children's learning ever forward. They are expected to be polite and professional to staff and parents at all times and in all places, even as some parents are rude and discourteous to them. They are expected to enthusiastically pursue professional development opportunities as they arise, and then nearly immediately apply what they have learned in their classrooms and share their learning with colleagues.

Many people see that we work shortened days and have summers "off". It is true, we are paid for fewer hours and are only required to be on campus from generally half an hour before school to half an hour after school. Summers are often spent preparing for the next school year and taking classes to keep up to date with the latest best practices and curriculum trends.

I have said for many years that teachers should be working regular business hours. For parents, seeing teachers leave work at 3:30 is a hard thing when they so often have to work very long hours for their own paychecks. However, if you are going to ask teachers to work longer hours, you will need to pay them accordingly. This then gives the teachers the paid time to do the little things like keep up a classroom website, answer emails, put more thought into lessons, take more care in their record keeping and apply new techniques in their classrooms. Most teachers do tend to work longer hours in any case, often showing up quite a bit earlier than they are required to do.

Yeah, they'd like that at the highschool level too, but it's just not practical with 100 - 120 kids, that you only see one hour a day. Right now he has a steady 20% absentee rate, and currently has 2 kids who have missed 50% of the days this year. Individualized instruction only works if you actually SEE the kids. At least at the elementary level you have a legal stick to beat the parents with, around here, after 16, the DA has pretty much made it clear he's not doing anything to track down the parents of the truants. But it IS the school's - and my husband's - fault when the kid doesn't show.

As for greater pay for longer hours, we'll never see that around here, period. My husband is losing 2 new-ish (2 year) colleagues at the end of this year due to a new requirement for longer hours (with no additional pay) and just generalized unwillingness to deal any longer with the thrash. So another 2 very promising and enthusiastic teachers, chewed up, spit out, and gone. (And these were NOT 20-somethings either, these were seasoned 40-somethings and parents themselves).

I'm curious, do they provide the host and template for said website, and good equipment and guidance on how to set it up, or do they expect you to be a web designer on the side? At my husband's school, there is NO guidance, and for the teachers who HAVE set up sites, the tech guys have managed to "security" them out of their own sites while in the building and logged into the school intranet.

 

[dragonfly411]

I don't know where I would be or what I would be today if it hadn't been for my teachers. Considering everything they have to deal with, they deserve at least double the pay they get.

!!!!

I can't stand all the people who complain about them.

I so agree with this. I would not be the person I am if it weren't for some of my teachers. Not only did I learn from them, but there are some who influenced me as a person. My second grade teacher comes to mind. She was one of the most enchanting people I've ever known and STILL keeps up with us as her students. She is the reason I love to read. She is the reason I learned to love musicals. She is the reason I love gummy bears . But seriously, there are some who really influenced me.

 

[kimchi]

Yeah, they'd like that at the highschool level too, but it's just not practical with 100 - 120 kids, that you only see one hour a day. Right now he has a steady 20% absentee rate, and currently has 2 kids who have missed 50% of the days this year. Individualized instruction only works if you actually SEE the kids. At least at the elementary level you have a legal stick to beat the parents with, around here, after 16, the DA has pretty much made it clear he's not doing anything to track down the parents of the truants. But it IS the school's - and my husband's - fault when the kid doesn't show.

As for greater pay for longer hours, we'll never see that around here, period. My husband is losing 2 new-ish (2 year) colleagues at the end of this year due to a new requirement for longer hours (with no additional pay) and just generalized unwillingness to deal any longer with the thrash. So another 2 very promising and enthusiastic teachers, chewed up, spit out, and gone. (And these were NOT 20-somethings either, these were seasoned 40-somethings and parents themselves).

I'm curious, do they provide the host and template for said website, and good equipment and guidance on how to set it up, or do they expect you to be a web designer on the side? At my husband's school, there is NO guidance, and for the teachers who HAVE set up sites, the tech guys have managed to "security" them out of their own sites while in the building and logged into the school intranet.

------------------------------------

Sorry, I'm relatively new to the forum and don't know how to do the handy box thingy.

Well, I was talking about Elementary level teaching. High school, that is a whole different ball game with it's own challenges and rewards. I agree that with a high absentee rate, individualized instruction is nearly impossible for those who don't show up. That's just a part of the picture that many people don't see--teachers having to cope with kids being truant and STILL being expected to educate them. It's stressful for teachers who care.

I was not trying to say what will happen. I know the score in US schools, having taught in them for years. I am just saying what I wish would happen. So long as we leave school at 3:30, we, as teachers, will not get the respect from the community that we deserve. It's unfair, but I am afraid it is true.

And yes, they provide the template and the guidance for the website as it is part of the entire school-wide website.

 

[Haven]

Sorry, I'm relatively new to the forum and don't know how to do the handy box thingy.

So long as we leave school at 3:30, we, as teachers, will not get the respect from the community that we deserve. It's unfair, but I am afraid it is true.

Kimchi--Welcome to PS!

To do the handy box thingy, all you need to do is press the "quote" button (instead of the "reply" button) on the post that you'd like to show up in the box.

I'm confused about what you mean when you say teachers will not get the respect form the community that we deserve so long as we leave school at 3:30. Perhaps you start later in the morning in elementary school, and that is leading to my confusion.

When I taught HS we worked full 8 hour days, minimum. (All of the local high schools have 8 hour day contracts, as well.) Our *contract* work day began at 7:20 and ended at 3:20, which is 8 hours. Most teachers, of course, arrived early and stayed late, but the teachers who were there for the BARE MINIMUM were still in school for 8 hours. That 8 hours included a 45 minute lunch period. Most teachers stayed much later because we had to coach and sponsor activities.

Or maybe you're saying that we won't get respect because we work earlier and leave earlier than most people? I don't understand why that would be the case.

 

[kimchi]

To do the handy box thingy, all you need to do is press the "quote" button (instead of the "reply" button) on the post that you'd like to show up in the box.

Thanks, Haven!

I'm confused about what you mean when you say teachers will not get the respect form the community that we deserve so long as we leave school at 3:30. Perhaps you start later in the morning in elementary school, and that is leading to my confusion.

I meant that even though our workday is 8 hours, because we leave work earlier in the day than most people do, we won't get the respect. My work hours at 7:30 to 3:30 and once a week I have duty during my lunch, so that is a "working lunch".

 

[Haven]

I don't think teachers are saints, and I certainly didn't mean to express that by posting this in the first place.

I do think we're everyone's favorite scapegoats for all of the problems in education.

We need union protection BECAUSE we are everyone's favorite scapegoats.

I think we are underpaid for all of the work we are expected to do and the results we are expected to achieve, especially at the elementary level. I was happy with my pay as a high school teacher, to be honest. I took a huge pay cut to teach community college, but it was worth it because I am now better paid in that great luxury: time.

Ineffective teachers who are not remediated or fired are a problem. Good administrators could take care of this problem by DOING THEIR JOB and putting them on a course of remediation or warning, which the language of every tenured teacher's contract has stipulations for enacting. It is not impossible to fire bad teachers under tenure, it's only impossible to fire bad teachers under tenure who have administrators that are lazy and don't do their jobs properly, as well. The administrator has to identify the problem, and follow specific steps and guidelines to help the teacher get his act together, or to build a paper trail of warnings and meetings that can lead to termination. It is not at all impossible, and in the short three years that I taught high school two tenured teachers were fired. (One for sending sexual text messages to a student--no need to follow the process, there. That was a given. The other was fired for not doing his job. He had been teaching for nearly 20 years.) It can easily happen if you have administrators who do their jobs, too.

I teach development English at the college level. 15% of our incoming freshman place into a developmental reading or writing class, and 33% place into a developmental math class. These statistics are not far off from other colleges, 2- and 4-year, alike. These students are coming to college underprepared, and my colleagues like to say "What are they doing with these kids in high school?" When I taught the same population in high school, it was "What are they doing with these kids in middle school?" When I teach grad students who want to become literacy specialists, the middle school teachers said "What are they doing with these kids in elementary school?" And the elementary teachers said "What are they doing with these kids at home?"

First, I hate to see such finger-pointing going on amongst educators. Second, schools (at least here in IL) are being forced to teach students how to take standardized exams rather than how to read and write authentic texts because our nation prefers to measure our schools' effectiveness by student performance on standardized tests. Guess what? A standardized test DOES assess something: How well a student takes a standardized test. It is not a proper measure of reading or writing ability, and thus preparing our students for this measure robs them of the literacy skills they so desperately need.

Schools invest tens of thousands of dollars into shiny box programs that have kids working on isolated literacy skills and answering multiple-choice questions when what they SHOULD be doing is putting goddamn books in their hands. Why don't we do this, then? Because we are put on watch and warning lists when our students don't perform well enough on the testing measures, and then outsiders who have no background in education are sent in to "consult" and tell us how to do a better job of "teaching" our students, which typically means: 1) Buy a boxed program, that will solve anything! or 2) Fire your crappy teachers, they are obviously the problem, or 3) Fire everyone, get a CEO, and run this place like a business.

If we truly care about WHAT our students are learning, we need to reexamine HOW we assess our schools, and WHAT we really want our children to get out of their education. Until then, we're all caught in a cycle of pandering to inaccurate measures, finger pointing, and worst of all, failing our children.

 

[Viola]

Just trying to understand here. I live i Sweden and teachers here grumble about their pay which I do not really understand. From what I have read their conditions are quite different from the US, they have pretty amazing job security, very large amounts of planning time in their schedule (tex they have class usually 2 -4 hours a day, rest is planning,etc), Sweden has a very strong socialist bend so they have very low or nonexistent costs for healthcare, childcare, etc, they do not pay for class materials, etc and they earn a median of 46000 usd a year. Their pay is comparable to many other profession requiring higher education but they are constantly talking about what a horrible pay they have and comparing it to the pay of doctors, lawyers and CEOs, completely disregarding that these professions usually work quite a lot more hours and at least in Sweden the education leading to these jobs are a lot harder for the majority of the population to achieve.

My fiances mother is a kinder garden teacher, his brother a high school teacher and I have friends that are also teachers so I have an acceptable knowledge of their working conditions meanwhile I am working my butt of doing a law degree and a business degree at the same time and they don't understand why I will probably have a higher pay then they do.

I am a firm believer in that teachers need more respect, that they are an extremely important part of society and should have more power but I can't accept that they should earn the same as a doctor or a CEO.

Oh I also find it quite funny that they have a big problem with what CEO earns tex but are fine with the pay that athletes, singers and actors get.

Great to see a Swede!

I'm in Sweden aswell, and I think that the average salary for teachers here is about 5k lower than what you stated. And you have to take in consideration that we pay 30% in tax, free health-care or not, it's still a hefty sum.

I have a close friend who's a teacher, she entered the field demanding 40 000usd, and that was considered *well* above entry level-salary, as her employer was offering her approx 33 000 usd, but my friend wouldn't budge, and was already a part-timer at the school, so the principal had to give in, as it would be too costly to employ another full-timer, not everyone is in this position though. You have to take in consideration that growth-possibilities in this proffession, aren't *that* big, so you'll basically have the same responsibilites at entry level as you'll have 20 yrs later in the field, atleast in Sweden (which equals not much raise in salary except for the annual standard raise). While if you for example have a bachelors in business adm or law, you'll have much more possibilites to higher your salary with time, as your responsibilites grow and you attain higher positions.
And I've got to add that most teachers work loooong hours, both on and off the clock, especially since they have to make up for the vacation times, such as summer, easter, christmas, etc. so they can get paid whenever they have "time off" during those holidays.

This is kind of off topic, but to be honest with you, to say that law school is more difficult than majoring in teaching and therefor the ones who have a degree in law deserve more pay is not true, as I don't think law school is more difficult than attaining a 4,5 year degree in teaching. I'd agree with you if we were talking about law-school in the US (from what I've heard from close friends who are going through it). Bottom line is, teaching and law are two very different fields, you can't say one deserves more pay than the other or that one is more demanding than the other.

 

[Maria D]

Is it too late to send you a valentine Haven? Thank you so much for that post! Especially about admins doing their job!

The paragraph about pointing the finger down to previous level of teaching -- oh so true! I was cured of this when I took an online refresher course in Calculus a few summers ago. The class tapes were of the professor teaching to freshman college undergrads. Just about every question the students in the class asked had not to do with the concepts of calculus but with algebraic manipulation. Yeah, the stuff I was supposed to have taught them in high school. I don't know what the answer is, but it does seem that endless "reforms" are taking us from bad to worse.

As for the eight hour day under contract that you experienced, the high school I teach in does not have this. We have a 6.5 hour contracted day that includes 30 minutes for lunch. Most of us arrive a half hour early and stay at least an hour after school, but not all. One of the things we are looking to negotiate in the next contract is a contracted longer day in exchange for more money (or at least for no "freeze"). For most of us, this would just be recognition of time we already give but for some it would mean having to do more. There's also the misconception that when teachers are not actively teaching, they are planning. If only! When I get in a half hour early more often than not there are a couple of students waiting for me for extra help. Same thing with the hour at the end of the day. Most are my students but plenty are students from two other teachers who leave the moment they are contractually allowed to. For planning, or go grade assignments/tests, I need to either lock the door and shut the lights and hide in a corner of my room or GO HOME. But yes, when I pull into my driveway at 3:30 I'm sure my general public thinks, cushy job.

Another misconception is that teaching for 2-4 hours a day, as natascha brought up, isn't that big of a deal. I have class time for 3.8 hours a day. Imagine a job where you needed to plan interactive presentations for 3.8 hours each day. Many occupations require creating and delivering presentations -- think about how much work goes into even a 1 hour presentation. As a teacher you need to do this work for different presentations EVERY day, and without secretarial help of any kind. The public can pretend the other 4.2 hours are for planning, but it's not true. See above paragraph! My point is that it's a tougher job than most people realize -- as evidenced by the attrition rate.

 

[ksinger]

I don't think teachers are saints, and I certainly didn't mean to express that by posting this in the first place.

I do think we're everyone's favorite scapegoats for all of the problems in education.

We need union protection BECAUSE we are everyone's favorite scapegoats.

I think we are underpaid for all of the work we are expected to do and the results we are expected to achieve, especially at the elementary level. I was happy with my pay as a high school teacher, to be honest. I took a huge pay cut to teach community college, but it was worth it because I am now better paid in that great luxury: time.

Ineffective teachers who are not remediated or fired are a problem. Good administrators could take care of this problem by DOING THEIR JOB and putting them on a course of remediation or warning, which the language of every tenured teacher's contract has stipulations for enacting. It is not impossible to fire bad teachers under tenure, it's only impossible to fire bad teachers under tenure who have administrators that are lazy and don't do their jobs properly, as well. The administrator has to identify the problem, and follow specific steps and guidelines to help the teacher get his act together, or to build a paper trail of warnings and meetings that can lead to termination. It is not at all impossible, and in the short three years that I taught high school two tenured teachers were fired. (One for sending sexual text messages to a student--no need to follow the process, there. That was a given. The other was fired for not doing his job. He had been teaching for nearly 20 years.) It can easily happen if you have administrators who do their jobs, too.

I teach development English at the college level. 15% of our incoming freshman place into a developmental reading or writing class, and 33% place into a developmental math class. These statistics are not far off from other colleges, 2- and 4-year, alike. These students are coming to college underprepared, and my colleagues like to say "What are they doing with these kids in high school?" When I taught the same population in high school, it was "What are they doing with these kids in middle school?" When I teach grad students who want to become literacy specialists, the middle school teachers said "What are they doing with these kids in elementary school?" And the elementary teachers said "What are they doing with these kids at home?"

First, I hate to see such finger-pointing going on amongst educators. Second, schools (at least here in IL) are being forced to teach students how to take standardized exams rather than how to read and write authentic texts because our nation prefers to measure our schools' effectiveness by student performance on standardized tests. Guess what? A standardized test DOES assess something: How well a student takes a standardized test. It is not a proper measure of reading or writing ability, and thus preparing our students for this measure robs them of the literacy skills they so desperately need.

Schools invest tens of thousands of dollars into shiny box programs that have kids working on isolated literacy skills and answering multiple-choice questions when what they SHOULD be doing is putting goddamn books in their hands. Why don't we do this, then? Because we are put on watch and warning lists when our students don't perform well enough on the testing measures, and then outsiders who have no background in education are sent in to "consult" and tell us how to do a better job of "teaching" our students, which typically means: 1) Buy a boxed program, that will solve anything! or 2) Fire your crappy teachers, they are obviously the problem, or 3) Fire everyone, get a CEO, and run this place like a business.

If we truly care about WHAT our students are learning, we need to reexamine HOW we assess our schools, and WHAT we really want our children to get out of their education. Until then, we're all caught in a cycle of pandering to inaccurate measures, finger pointing, and worst of all, failing our children.

Yes. Yes to all of it. Although I will take a bit of a tangent here, and say this, the only real constant in all of this IS the home. It is where I put the lion's share of the responsibility and blame, if you will. IF the child even has parent(s) and isn't living in some other situation that is less than wonderful, then the home is quite likely to espouse some of what I personally, think are some ideas about how to rear children that are damaging to them, and to society in the long run. Ideas like never letting children fail or suffer the least disappointment or the humiliation of not being a WINNER! This has permeated the schools because HEY! the schools are run by adults who are parents and bring those ideas with them! A microcosm always, of what is going on OUT THERE.

So we frequently see kindergarten and elementary with mantra that "everyone's a WINNER!" And of course, the reasons for social promotion are many and it will be mouthed from here to next week that holding a child back will negatively impact his chance of graduating. Social promotion many times makes the parents happier, because they REALLY don't want to face that their child is doing poorly because then they might have to take a look in the mirror and that's VERY uncomfortable. It makes the administrators happy because their stats are better, it make the news outlets happy because they can report happy things, and it make the chamber of commerce happy because they can crow about the area. The ONLY reason NOT to promote a failing child is for his own benefit, and when you balance that against the ego/political needs of the others, the actual status of the child doesn't stand a chance.

This attitude, to one degree or another, makes its way all the way through, with (at least around HERE) a monumentally meaningless "eighth grade graduation ceremony". No, I'm NOT kidding. Graduation lite - an elevation of something that should be a complete non-event to an unmerited celebration, and a tacit acknowledgment that many of these kids aren't going to make it much past that. And of course if they do make it past that, we end up with 20 or more valedictorians. Hey man! EVERYONE'S a winner!!!
And much of it has been driven by parents and the changing parenting paradigms of the last 30 years.

And that "my child can't fail" attitude sometimes even survives college and beyond. I have a friend whose brother works personnel for an oil company, and when they would fire or reprimand newly hired graduates (engineers mind you), the PARENTS would blast into the personnel office to ARGUE with the PERSONNEL OFFICE about their child's firing.

 

[Haven]

Maria--Thank you for YOUR post!

I'm really interested to learn about your 6.5 hour-per-day contract, and I think it's wonderful that you can try to use that as a negotiation point to get higher pay, or at least to avoid a freeze. Here's hoping it works out for your district.

I love the way you discuss the amount of time spent teaching as planning for interactive presentations--I tried to express that in my last post but gave up.

I taught in a high school on a 4 X 4 block schedule, and we happened to have the longest teaching day in the state. We taught three 90-minute classes per day, PLUS an additional 30 minutes of instruction for one of those classes (it rotated every day--homeroom on Mondays, 1st hour on Tuesdays, 2nd hour on Weds, etc.) which means teachers in my former school teach FIVE HOURS A DAY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK. It was brutal. The block schedule is a favorite amongst administrators who have to squeeze more money out of the budget because teachers end up teaching SIX classes a year instead of five. (With the 90 minute periods plus 30 extra mins of instruction once per week we teach a traditional year-long 45 minute class in one semester, and then switch classes after winter break.) If that school wanted to switch from a block to a traditional schedule they would have to hire four additional full-time teachers for the English department alone just to teach the same amount of classes that are currently taught by the 20 English teachers they have right now.

And the teaching part of our jobs is the EASIEST part, by far! There is so much work that goes into preparing for and responding to instruction.

Now that I teach CC my full load is 15 hours of teaching per week. (I took an overload this semester so I'm teaching 19 hours, but that was my choice.) Compared to the 25 hours of teaching I *was* doing (plus the adjunct work that I did as a CC instructor at night, and coaching the HS Speech Team and sponsoring two clubs and serving on committees) I feel like I actually have TIME to provide quality feedback on my students' work, to research and plan effective lessons, to reflect on how each day goes and make changes moving forward, and to have a LIFE of my own.

I think some high school teachers are seriously overworked. I know I would have burnt out in a few short years, and I just couldn't hack it so I left. It's a shame, because I loved the job, it was just too much job, if that makes sense. In the short time that I was there I made several amazing friends, I chaperoned a summer trip to Greece, did a ton of goofy things on stage for assemblies and student projects, and overall just had a blast. Many of my former HS students and Speech Teamers still keep in touch and I'm proud to say I'm going to a number of college graduations this year at their invitation. When I think about my time teaching HS I get a knot in my stomach and feel a deep pang of regret that I'm not longer there, because it really was wonderful to be a part of a HS community. There are things I miss so very badly about teaching HS, but the sacrifices I would have had to make in my personal life to maintain a high quality of teaching in the HS were just too great, and so I left.

I sit here now, regretting that I couldn't have made a career out of teaching high school. That's not to say that I don't love my current job teaching CC, I do, but I miss the community that comes with teaching in a high school. I miss engaging in arguments about pedagogy over our too-brief lunch breaks. I miss the electricity of a classroom filled with adolescents just brimming with ideas and angst and thirst for new experiences. I miss partnering with parents who want to make better lives for their children. I miss breakfast every morning in my reading lab with my poorest students who paid us back tenfold by filling our lab with hilarious and heartbreaking stories over a hot meal. I miss being a part of the crazy, dysfunctional, human community that is a high school.

But I couldn't do it. I need time to fulfill my own passions that extend beyond teaching, and I knew I wouldn't have the energy to do that if I stayed in the K-12 system. Since I quit my high school teaching job I've written a 60,000 word first draft of the novel that's been rolling around in my head for years. I've started to teach myself German. I've learned the art of paper quilling. I've run a 5K. I've actually *read* my Sunday paper every Sunday, as well as all those magazines I've subscribed to but only skimmed in the past. I've gone from reading about 20 books a year to 75. I've submitted two successful proposals to speak at reading conferences, one in my own state and one overseas. I've deepened my knowledge of my own field by reading all those books I've wanted to read, but didn't have time to read before. I've taught several graduate courses for aspiring reading specialists. I finally finished my 1,400 button collage.

For me, it wasn't about money or prestige. It was about being able to both live my life AND be good at my job. Had I stayed in the high school, I would have had to choose one or the other, and I couldn't do that.

 

[Haven]

KSinger--I could not agree with you more. This "everyone's a winner" mentality cripples our children. They know a "victory" is meaningless when everyone enjoys it, and thus we end up with kids who have no confidence in their own abilities because they have never needed to demonstrate any ability to earn praise.

I think it's a terrible thing to underestimate an individual, and to set the bar for achievement so low that it is an empty, meaningless thing. I expect a lot from my students because I believe they can deliver. It's an adjustment for most of them, but in the end they leave our class proud of the growth they accomplished, and confident that they CAN achieve something meaningful. (Most of all, they leave better readers and writers.) I'm upfront about it, and I make my expectations clear on the first day of class. And most importantly, I don't lower my expectations for students if they fail to reach them. Nothing says "I didn't think you could actually do it" like giving in to a student's sob story about why he didn't attend class or complete the work to the standards required. When we lower our standards or requirements for achievement, what we're really doing is saying "I don't believe you can manage anything more. I don't believe in you, so I won't require much of you."

 

[swimmer]

How about instead of giving people tax credits for having children they put that money back into the system? I don't see why I should pay for other people to have children AND send them to school. Besides, teachers chose to be teachers and knew what they were getting into. I don't think they're saints in any form, they're just people who like to teach and that is their job. I've never understood the glorifying of teachers....

eta: I highly doubt that in and out burger employees have the luxury of a salary, stable job, health insurance, retirement, vacation days and paid sick time off. They're also not making much over CA minimum wage either.

**grabs popcorn and waits for Swimmer to arrive**

I was thinking much the same thing, but Karen and Danny beat Swimmer to the punch.

Sorry to disappoint y'all, I was just sipping lattes and munching on bonbons on my private jet to WI. Just kidding, its too far away to go show my solidarity, but my heart is with those union employees who are being attacked so that tax cuts can go to potential businesses that might possibly move to the state. Don't they get it that people want to live and work in states with good schools? If you don't pay for schools now, you pay for prisons later. Anyone who doesn't want to fund schools should have a below average student as their doctor, lawyer, etc.

I'd love to ramble on here, but I'm teaching mostly remedial classes this year instead of AP so instead of having discussion based lectures with curious and energized young minds, I'm now more like a circus ringleader/cheerleader for those with limited interest or limited ability, mostly teaching basic skills. It is really exhausting (especially with an infant at home) and I need to finalize this unit on geography (using oranges to show the complexities of depicting the earth as a flat map) and how the race to imperialize in the 1800s fueled today's inequity in Africa, instability in Central Asia, and religious conflicts in the Middle East. (yes Karen, if only GWB had taken my world history class and learned about the sordid track record of invading Afghanistan!) I am energized about my job, but concerned for the future, and confused about how the current financial crisis is my fault when I never gave anyone a bad mortgage.

Oh, and I'm from a hugely powerful union state (MA) and I've seen a good number of teachers lose their tenure for not being effective in the classroom. All it takes is administrators who actually do their jobs.

 

[ksinger]

How about instead of giving people tax credits for having children they put that money back into the system? I don't see why I should pay for other people to have children AND send them to school. Besides, teachers chose to be teachers and knew what they were getting into. I don't think they're saints in any form, they're just people who like to teach and that is their job. I've never understood the glorifying of teachers....

eta: I highly doubt that in and out burger employees have the luxury of a salary, stable job, health insurance, retirement, vacation days and paid sick time off. They're also not making much over CA minimum wage either.

**grabs popcorn and waits for Swimmer to arrive**

I was thinking much the same thing, but Karen and Danny beat Swimmer to the punch.

Sorry to disappoint y'all, I was just sipping lattes and munching on bonbons on my private jet to WI. Just kidding, its too far away to go show my solidarity, but my heart is with those union employees who are being attacked so that tax cuts can go to potential businesses that might possibly move to the state. Don't they get it that people want to live and work in states with good schools? If you don't pay for schools now, you pay for prisons later. Anyone who doesn't want to fund schools should have a below average student as their doctor, lawyer, etc.

I'd love to ramble on here, but I'm teaching mostly remedial classes this year instead of AP so instead of having discussion based lectures with curious and energized young minds, I'm now more like a circus ringleader/cheerleader for those with limited interest or limited ability, mostly teaching basic skills. It is really exhausting (especially with an infant at home) and I need to finalize this unit on geography (using oranges to show the complexities of depicting the earth as a flat map) and how the race to imperialize in the 1800s fueled today's inequity in Africa, instability in Central Asia, and religious conflicts in the Middle East. (yes Karen, if only GWB had taken my world history class and learned about the sordid track record of invading Afghanistan!) I am energized about my job, but concerned for the future, and confused about how the current financial crisis is my fault when I never gave anyone a bad mortgage.

Oh, and I'm from a hugely powerful union state (MA) and I've seen a good number of teachers lose their tenure for not being effective in the classroom. All it takes is administrators who actually do their jobs.

Ah yes, Afghanistan: where empires go to die. Pretty simple really, if you PAID ATTENTION. Poor hubs, I know he gets so tired of teaching American all the time. He adores world with a passion, but he always has to do American.

As for below average students being your doctor, well, the operative thought there is that you acknowledged that there ARE below average students and that the real world isn't Lake Woebegon. Part of our problem would be solved if the whole country would come to grips with that simple fact, and that there is no way on earth we will fully escape that pesky bell curve, no matter how many teachers we fire. Like Rhode Island? It just boggles the mind.

PS - and it's always fun to juxtapose our situations/takes/stories on stuff, considering that we in Oklahoma and you in MA, are at truly opposite ends of the educational spectrum. Although I do like to tell myself that there are a few of us here who really aren't the dunces that it would seem we MUST be considering the dismal ed system here...

 

[zoebartlett]

Haven -- I'm surprised that your contract was for 8 hours (minimum). Our contract says we have to be at school at 8:15 and we can leave at 3:15. School begins at 8:45 and ends at 3:00. Not many of our teachers follow that exactly but we do have a few who come close to it because of day care issues. I can't imagine doing my job in just 7 hours, so I'm not sure how they manage but they do. I'm typically at work by 7 and I leave by 3:45-4:00 most days.

I have to say that I love reading your posts and Swimmer's because you two always say everything so articulately and eloquently. I find myself nodding in agreement at your posts, girls. Thank you.

Ksinger -- I always enjoy reading your posts and threads as well, and it's clear how passionate you are about education. Thank you!

I think everyone brings something to education, no matter what grade level she teaches. I cannot imagine teaching middle or high school and my teacher friends who do say the same thing about teaching lower elementary (where I am).

Thanks for starting this thread, Haven.

 

[Imdanny]

I read today that Wisconsin's governor had termination notices sent to all of Wisconsin's teachers. This will allow him to fire all of them or any of them, I guess. He, also, has been caught on tape saying that he is planning to fire many state employees and keep ratcheting the number of firings up as a strategy to help him get his controversial union-busting bill passed.

Teachers and other public workers are being scapegoated, not only for any problems that might exist in education, but for the Great Recession. It's unfortunate how many people are willing to be duped into actually believing something so preposterous.

I always knew that some people don't like unions, but I never thought that teachers of all people would be would be made out to be greedy, bad at what they do, in instant need of being replaced by corporate charter schools (and I read about a plan to use computers, I guess it was, and no teachers).

Teachers and other public workers' rights should be respected, and they should be appreciated for what they do. They shouldn't be attacked the way they are being right now.

 

[movie zombie]

and its because of govenors like this nitwit that state employees need unions. agree with your post, Imdanny.

corporations and wall street are apparently not greedy....its those unions and their members as well as teachers. didn't you know?!


MoZo

 

[CherryBlossom]

I read today that Wisconsin's governor had termination notices sent to all of Wisconsin's teachers. This will allow him to fire all of them or any of them, I guess. He, also, has been caught on tape saying that he is planning to fire many state employees and keep ratcheting the number of firings up as a strategy to help him get his controversial union-busting bill passed.

Teachers and other public workers are being scapegoated, not only for any problems that might exist in education, but for the Great Recession. It's unfortunate how many people are willing to be duped into actually believing something so preposterous.

I always knew that some people don't like unions, but I never thought that teachers of all people would be would be made out to be greedy, bad at what they do, in instant need of being replaced by corporate charter schools (and I read about a plan to use computers, I guess it was, and no teachers).

Teachers and other public workers' rights should be respected, and they should be appreciated for what they do. They shouldn't be attacked the way they are being right now.

It's disgusting but so true. It's a whole divide and conquer technique. I am so confused and appalled by individuals that talk about this issue, on the news or on talk radio when people are asked about this they say something like "I don't have health insurance/I pay 40% premium on my so those teachers/public workers should have to do the same" -- it's the most asinine logic in the world to me. Instead of questioning their own working situation and understanding that they are being screwed because they themselves don't have collective bargaining power... they want to turn around and screw over someone who actually joined a union and enjoys the rights that come w/ collective bargaining power.

This is what many working class/middle class people always do (especially when they have right wing talk radio/tv bashing unions and blaming them for all the problems in the world) Instead of coming together and realizing that they have more in common w/ one another and being kind of screwed over by the top 1% in the country... they end up attacking each other and trying to drag each other down. It's the most self defeating thing in the world. Have any of you read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas" it goes into this issue a lot... why do we constantly attack each other and vote for individuals who do not serve our basic/fundamental self interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F

I know that I might be in trouble for saying this because it's political, but I have to say it. The issue you see being talked about right now is not about pay, the money, or even the budget of some states... it's about collective bargaining power. It's about union busting... not because they dislike union as a whole... but because the unions are a strong part of the democratic party. Take away the unions... take away the funding for some democrats. and after that what are you left? you are left with one party.. the one that as of last year will be fully funded by mega corporations thanks to the recent supreme court passage of Citizens United Decision... which effectively lifts the ban on corporate spending on political campaigns.

So no, it has nothing to do w/ the states budget. It's about collective bargaining power. The battle lines could not be better defined. The conservati­ve Republican Governor, bank rolled by the uber wealthy Tea party Koch Brothers pitted against the Middle Class wage earners. It is the political agenda of the new Republican Congress to do all they can to destroy the Middle Class, as they seek to fore close on their homes, take away their labor rights and take away the benefits they worked for for so long. Its in the interest of Republican­s in office to raise the misery index for seniors, vets, the middle class and the poor. What to fear and who to blame. Classic Republican politics.

I still chuckle to myself how the tax cuts for the rich were extended first, then the budget cuts came to play. Government workers are NOT bankruptin­g the country.

Even if you're not political, you MUST watch this because it breaks down the issue point by point FACTUALLY in a way that I have not seen it done before. You must watch this so that you get the full picture and it makes sense because there is a back story to this thats needed for this conversation: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41655758#41655758

 

[Pandora II]

I don't know much about the US system, but here in the UK I get pretty fed up with the 'aren't teachers wonderful and don't you dare say anything but that' that goes on. Oh and the endless whinging from the teachers themselves - honestly there is no other group that moans as much as they do.

Some teachers are good, but there are plenty of lousy ones especially in the state sector. You get people teaching subjects they can't pass an exam in themselves. The salaries and perks are extremely good over here. The average teacher in London was earning about the same as I was only they also got great holidays, great pension and even including prep and marking time they were working a heck of a lot less hours than I was.

When I read some of the material sent out by these schools - or look at their websites - I despair. Barely a sentence that is grammatically correct or without spelling mistakes. My husband and I will be doing everything we can to afford private school fees for our daughter so that she goes to a school where the teachers at least have a degree in the subject they are teaching.

 

[zoebartlett]

Pandora -- I've worked with teachers who whined constantly and it was so draining to listen to. I changed schools after only 1 year and it was like a breath of fresh air. My new colleagues (this is going back 6 years or so) were passionate about what they were doing and they truly enjoyed their jobs. I'm still at this school and I love it. It's fun, and that's what it should be like. I always wondered why my former colleagues kept teaching if they were so miserable. It didn't make any sense. Some people don't seem to know when to bow out.

 

[Haven]

Pandora--The atmosphere is quite different in the US--it's far more popular here to talk about how awful teachers are than it is to talk about how wonderful they are.

It's a shame about your school system. I have close family friends in the UK who sent all of their children to private schools because they said the publics were just plain awful. I don't know if that's a widespread situation in the UK, but our friends are lucky that they have more than enough means and were able to purchase the opportunity for a quality education for their children.

 

[ksinger]

All I wonder is when everyone is going to quit focusing in on the teachers as the cause and solution to the problem when it is repeatedly shown to be factors OUTSIDE the control of the schools that overwhelmingly determines student success.

Of course I can tell you why the focus will remain on the mosquito and ignore the gorilla - because one is a mosquito and the other is a big, mean, hairy, strong gorilla. Which one YOU gonna piss off?

Two False Claims Driving School Reform
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/accountability/the-2-false-claims-that-drive.html?hpid=topnews

This will of course, go ignored by anyone with the power to DO anything, since to acknowledge this would be messy, ambiguous, politically charged, and won't fit neatly on a bumper-sticker, so the drumbeat of "FIRE all the BAD TEACHERS!!" will drone on.

Denial truly is THE most powerful force on earth.