Are You Appreciated?

[YadaYadaYada]

Tangent Alert!

Omg PS5 controllers, at $70 per controller I can see why they are his babies! Seriously amazes me how much the accessories are for these modern systems. Remember the joystick controllers of the Atari? Those things were indestructible, good for throwing at your sibling when they ticked you off!

 

[FL_runner]

I have lowered my standards on a lot of housekeeping and had a serious talk with my husband about redistributing chores a few years ago to be more even. We both work full time and do a lot of volunteer work and are pretty busy, but he works from home and has more flexibility so it was crazy that I was doing almost everything! We don’t have any hired help but I’ve thought about a laundry service… I’m picky though and hang dry so many things. I made a long list and showed how much more I was doing and it was a “lightbulb” moment. I also stopped doing everyone’s laundry!!!

 

[Octave]

Same pattern everywhere! But I stopped that at the very beginning. I made a deal!
I made a list of all the jobs to be done in and around the house. Then I sat down with my husband and asked him "what do you take, what do I take? However you solve your part!" The result is a high degree of automation (blinds and awnings open and close automatically, lights switch off and on automatically, the garden is supplied by an irrigation system, etc.) and we have outsourced a lot (cleaning, laundry, gardener, pool service, car cleaning etc.). This has allowed us both to really concentrate fully on our job. There's still enough to do anyway (shopping, cooking, organizing, etc.).
Is this a 100% solution? No, not at all. My husband still leaves his mark on the house, but I'm always away long enough for him to realize what it's like without me and then he pulls himself together again.

 

[Piper70]

@mrs-b is my hero!! I have many things to say about my husband, but funnily enough, he did the same thing to our son who got lazy about picking up stuff around the house.
I am a stay at home mom so everything falls on my shoulders. Which I am happy to bear as long as nobody makes my job any harder.
My husband grew up in a household where his mom worked and then had her mother cleaning their house so the boys rooms were ignored. Fortunately, he really appreciates a clean house, and is more than happy to do his part to pick up after himself, even though he was not taught that way by his own mother. For me, the appreciation issue is that he doesn’t see how much work it takes to do all of these things. So the thought is that his work is harder and mine is not hard. I have the same issue with everyone in my life. I am a really competent person and I think people have a tendency to let me do stuff because they are lazy and I am better at it. So it’s not being underappreciated that is the problem. It is that I am taking advantage of and wish that other people in my life would take a turn planning a movie night or get together. It’s really not that hard.

 

[Jambalaya]

WOW! Those are AMAZING! I honestly can't pick which I like best. Just stunning.

 

[Jambalaya]

WOW! Those are AMAZING! I honestly can't pick which I like best. Just stunning.

Ha! I replied to the wrong thread! Meant to post this about DK's two new rings!

 

[monarch64]

Weaponized incompetence.

Weaponized incompetence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Garnetgirl]

Weaponized incompetence.

Weaponized incompetence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh, so true, unfortunately.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Okay I just thought of the perfect solution, we just need to house swap. Just think of how much simpler it would be to take care of a 1200 square foot house on one level! Actually one better, you move here with the kids and the husbands can go live in the vicarage, imagine the fun they would have taking care of it all by themselves

when we first moved into our house (modest mid century 4 bedroom) i used to love going around at night closing the curtains ....becuas ebefore we lived in a tinly one bedroom place
then i got lazy and id forget to open them in the two rooms we dont really use and the poor old aspadestra needed light
so now i leave those open all the time, its not like we are in there at night with the lights on so no one can see in from the street

of course with Gary's crook eyes we have to leave the curtains closed in the lounge, it gets light from the kitchen but i live in a cave

 

[Ally T]

when we first moved into our house (modest mid century 4 bedroom) i used to love going around at night closing the curtains ....becuas ebefore we lived in a tinly one bedroom place
then i got lazy and id forget to open them in the two rooms we dont really use and the poor old aspadestra needed light
so now i leave those open all the time, its not like we are in there at night with the lights on so no one can see in from the street

of course with Gary's crook eyes we have to leave the curtains closed in the lounge, it gets light from the kitchen but i live in a cave

I hope you take yourself out in the garden regularly for some lovely sunlight.

 

[missy]

It's interesting (and somewhat disheartening) reading the replies here. I thought we were further along in 2023 but like in almost every other area it seems our country, and this world, is regressing.

I am lucky. My dh is a very evolved being. He contributes so much to the household chores. More than his "fair" share IMO. I do not know how I got so lucky and I appreciate him every single day. Not just for this but for everything. His support, his unconditional love. Everything.

Don't get me wrong. He isn't perfect. But he *is* perfect for me.

I worked hard to get him this way so make no mistake about it. He is more highly evolved now than when we first met back in the 90s. But he was still more highly evolved than most even then.

LOL when we first got married we had some challenges. Especially with him keeping the toilet seats DOWN. I had to resort to taping them dow when nothing else worked. And that did the trick

So it didn't all magically fall into place.
Rather we both worked at it to make it the loving and supportive relationship it is.
And we got the Gottman marriage book which, IMO, is brilliant. And should be required reading for everyone in a romantic relationship.

The key to our successful relationship?
One word. No make that four.

Communication
Respect
Trust
Love

We both love and appreciate each other.
Never taking the other one for granted.

My thoughts for our relationship only.
Every relationship is different.
I judge no one's relationship.
Just sharing what makes ours work so darn well.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I just think marriage is damn hard work, kudos to those who have it easy but that is the exception I think. Let’s not forget that there are many people who have some kind of trauma that they carry into adulthood and relationships, so you have one or two people with that baggage and then trying to manage a house and kids…yikes it is a lot.

I guess the point is that there is a lot going on with people and most are trying to do the best they can, this includes husbands. No, wives should not be taken advantage of, husbands either. Also can we acknowledge that different dynamics work for different couples? Some will do well in a more traditional marriage and some will not, there is no one way or best way.

 

[Ally T]

I just think marriage is damn hard work, kudos to those who have it easy but that is the exception I think. Let’s not forget that there are many people who have some kind of trauma that they carry into adulthood and relationships, so you have one or two people with that baggage and then trying to manage a house and kids…yikes it is a lot.

I guess the point is that there is a lot going on with people and most are trying to do the best they can, this includes husbands. No, wives should not be taken advantage of, husbands either. Also can we acknowledge that different dynamics work for different couples? Some will do well in a more traditional marriage and some will not, there is no one way or best way.

This. I also think that when you throw children into a marriage, that flips things somewhat. We had the household chores split 50/50 when we got together. Fast forwards to children arriving & me giving up work, that chore weight slid firmly my way. And I coped & still do, but as I get older (& the children too) it’s hard to break that routine of me doing everything for everyone. As @Piper70 has said, I am good at organising & if I don’t know about it, it generally doesn’t happen in this house. So I just pull my socks up & crack on.

I’m getting a bit more cantankerous as I age, so I am now expecting more help around here & whilst I haven’t yet had The Chat due to kids being off here there & everywhere & Mr T working upstairs a couple of nights & not making it down to dinner at the same time as the rest of us, he HAS been better. This is because I left my scribbled & angry note that I mentioned at the start of the thread on the kitchen bench, where it still sits & he passes every time he’s in here. Perhaps it’s subliminally sinking in

 

[MillieLou]

Do you join him on the Christmas parties and events? Or on his work trips? It might be a good idea sometimes, if someone else can look after the kids. It's always helpful to be part of each others' worlds outside the home.

 

[seaurchin]

LaThis. I also think that when you throw children into a marriage, that flips things somewhat. We had the household chores split 50/50 when we got together. Fast forwards to children arriving & me giving up work, that chore weight slid firmly my way. And I coped & still do, but as I get older (& the children too) it’s hard to break that routine of me doing everything for everyone. As @Piper70 has said, I am good at organising & if I don’t know about it, it generally doesn’t happen in this house. So I just pull my socks up & crack on.

I’m getting a bit more cantankerous as I age, so I am now expecting more help around here & whilst I haven’t yet had The Chat due to kids being off here there & everywhere & Mr T working upstairs a couple of nights & not making it down to dinner at the same time as the rest of us, he HAS been better. This is because I left my scribbled & angry note that I mentioned at the start of the thread on the kitchen bench, where it still sits & he passes every time he’s in here. Perhaps it’s subliminally sinking in

Oh yeah. They know when they’re in trouble.

 

[Austina]

@Ally T is it too late to get your blinds and curtains motorised? I know one of my neighbours has theirs on timers to open and close automatically?

When the brat was younger, I would wash and iron his clothes, and take them up to his room for him to put away. I’d go up there and find them on the floor, so not only didn’t I go and collect his clothes for washing, I piled up the dirty clothes on his bed, so when he got home, he had to move them all to get in to his bed. It didn’t take long for him to run out of clean clothes and start with the “Mum, where’s my ………?” My reply was “wherever you left them”.

Men definitely don’t see things we do, my darling husband can’t see things under his nose, spills on the worktops, things on the carpet, whatever. I think they’re programmed to operate that way, and don’t understand about things that really annoy us.

When we had our big house, it was like painting the Forth Bridge every week trying to keep it clean. People would ask why I didn’t have a cleaner, I couldn’t find one to take on the job!

I did everything relating to the house while DH was working, he was never home long enough to help, (crazy long hours and lots of travel). As soon as he retired, he had his chores to do. He certainly didn’t do them as well as I would, but honestly, there comes a time when it’s easier to accept it’s not perfect, but good enough. You’re not at this stage yet, so I certainly agree with all the other suggestions, that the girls are old enough to take on some tasks, and Mr T could also do more around the house. There’s only so much time and effort you can put in to keeping your house up.

 

[Ally T]

Do you join him on the Christmas parties and events? Or on his work trips? It might be a good idea sometimes, if someone else can look after the kids. It's always helpful to be part of each others' worlds outside the home.

Unfortunately not. I did when we first set the business up & there were 26 staff in one room, but his company is huge now & so always been just staff to the Summer & Christmas parties for the last 9 years. There are 321 employees here & they are owned by a much bigger corporate, so twice a year the corporate ship out the Directors (Mr T & 4 others) to Europe for a bigger event. Wives are definitely not on the invite list & we tend to have our own little get togethers.

When he travels with work, again it’s not something I would want to take part in or would be able to, due to my work & the children. He tends to do LA & back in 4 days, occasionally 3, which I am not interested in!

On the flip side, events & parties at school are staff only due to costs.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I hope you take yourself out in the garden regularly for some lovely sunlight.

all good thanks Ally
i get plenty of vitamin D waiting for the bus - i spend my life waiting for the bus
have to be careful this time of year though

CURRENT UV LEVEL LOW​

Dangerous today from 9:50 AM
Protection required9:50 AM - 5:25 PMEven on cloudy days.
this is today's uv index

 

[Pomelo]

@Ally T Thanks for starting this thread as it touches on a topic so many of us are passionate about, and has provoked so much wisdom - I’ve both laughed and cried at some of the posts.

Having “the conversation” is not easy, not just because it’s an emotional topic but also because it’s hard to know how to present it logically! In case you haven’t read Eve Rodsky’s book, Fair Play, I would highly recommend it, as it helped me think through managing the split of time.

Before my long ramble, I wanted to point out that language matters - and if you don’t mind, I want to pick up on the language you use around having a “little job”. Sometimes I think it’s British humility and self-deprecation (that makes Brits so endearing and the best comedians in the world IMO!), yet your “little job” has an implicit “big job” that your husband is doing, thereby placing less value on it. However, I think that caring for and educating the next generation is one of the highest value and most noble occupations - not just your daughters but also all the other kids at your school! I used to refer to my (one-person) business as a “small side hustle” or “little business”, but felt that it even made me feel I didn’t respect it as much / be proud of it, so now it’s just my “business” and I feel much better

For background, my husband and I worked in the same industry and earned a similar amount for nearly a decade. Then, partly due to burn out and partly due to wanting to start a family, I left full time work and started my own (one-person, 10-20h/week) business. We were in a financial position that allowed us to do this without significantly reducing our standard of living, and it was a decision that both of us discussed and agreed upon.

That’s when I started to notice his remarks and a shift in his behaviour: “Can you do ABC small admin task for me as you have the time now?”, “When’re you going back to proper work?”, “Ooh you could’ve made managing director / earning XYZ by now”.

I picked him up on it, and he would say with a smile that it was all humour. I pointed out that it hurt and wasn’t helpful, but found that I couldn’t eloquently say why or argue well against it - hence my inner nerd resorted to a book about it!

Stealing a few points from Eve Rodsky’s book “Fair Play”:
1. Time is money is a myth: time is measured in seconds, minutes, hours, NOT money. Only when you believe that time should be treated equally, is when the division of labour becomes more equal
2. Unpaid work does not mean it is unimportant: serving your family is just as important as any outside work. How much would your husband pay someone to bring up your wonderful daughters with the love and care you have (!)
3. Ownership and mental load: true ownership means thinking about it (mental load) and executing on it. Having to remind others to do something is unfairly characterized as nagging when it should be their job to own the responsibility from start to finish
4. Fair play is not about splitting tasks or time 50/50, but to achieve a balance you are collectively happy with

The book has a list of 100 home-related tasks that each has a fully responsible person - TBH we didn’t go into such detail together, as it was more efficient for me to assign (appropriate and manageable) tasks to him. And as many people have pointed out - delegate where you can! I also liked @Octave ‘s point about automation - my robot vacuum cleaner with in-built mop is a good friend

Luckily, my husband understood the point about equality of time and work quickly (maybe 10-20 reminders were needed) and the hurtful remarks stopped, although he doesn’t take full ownership of certain tasks yet (it’s improved though!).

For me, the biggest and best change is that he *gets it* that the time I spend on our family is worth just as much as his time spent in the office.

 

[Ally T]

@Ally T Thanks for starting this thread as it touches on a topic so many of us are passionate about, and has provoked so much wisdom - I’ve both laughed and cried at some of the posts.

Having “the conversation” is not easy, not just because it’s an emotional topic but also because it’s hard to know how to present it logically! In case you haven’t read Eve Rodsky’s book, Fair Play, I would highly recommend it, as it helped me think through managing the split of time.

Before my long ramble, I wanted to point out that language matters - and if you don’t mind, I want to pick up on the language you use around having a “little job”. Sometimes I think it’s British humility and self-deprecation (that makes Brits so endearing and the best comedians in the world IMO!), yet your “little job” has an implicit “big job” that your husband is doing, thereby placing less value on it. However, I think that caring for and educating the next generation is one of the highest value and most noble occupations - not just your daughters but also all the other kids at your school! I used to refer to my (one-person) business as a “small side hustle” or “little business”, but felt that it even made me feel I didn’t respect it as much / be proud of it, so now it’s just my “business” and I feel much better

For background, my husband and I worked in the same industry and earned a similar amount for nearly a decade. Then, partly due to burn out and partly due to wanting to start a family, I left full time work and started my own (one-person, 10-20h/week) business. We were in a financial position that allowed us to do this without significantly reducing our standard of living, and it was a decision that both of us discussed and agreed upon.

That’s when I started to notice his remarks and a shift in his behaviour: “Can you do ABC small admin task for me as you have the time now?”, “When’re you going back to proper work?”, “Ooh you could’ve made managing director / earning XYZ by now”.

I picked him up on it, and he would say with a smile that it was all humour. I pointed out that it hurt and wasn’t helpful, but found that I couldn’t eloquently say why or argue well against it - hence my inner nerd resorted to a book about it!

Stealing a few points from Eve Rodsky’s book “Fair Play”:
1. Time is money is a myth: time is measured in seconds, minutes, hours, NOT money. Only when you believe that time should be treated equally, is when the division of labour becomes more equal
2. Unpaid work does not mean it is unimportant: serving your family is just as important as any outside work. How much would your husband pay someone to bring up your wonderful daughters with the love and care you have (!)
3. Ownership and mental load: true ownership means thinking about it (mental load) and executing on it. Having to remind others to do something is unfairly characterized as nagging when it should be their job to own the responsibility from start to finish
4. Fair play is not about splitting tasks or time 50/50, but to achieve a balance you are collectively happy with

The book has a list of 100 home-related tasks that each has a fully responsible person - TBH we didn’t go into such detail together, as it was more efficient for me to assign (appropriate and manageable) tasks to him. And as many people have pointed out - delegate where you can! I also liked @Octave ‘s point about automation - my robot vacuum cleaner with in-built mop is a good friend

Luckily, my husband understood the point about equality of time and work quickly (maybe 10-20 reminders were needed) and the hurtful remarks stopped, although he doesn’t take full ownership of certain tasks yet (it’s improved though!).

For me, the biggest and best change is that he *gets it* that the time I spend on our family is worth just as much as his time spent in the office.

I love this. LOVE it.

Thank you for going into so much detail. Everything you have said makes complete sense to me & you have made some very valid points. My “little job” has always been called that by both of us, with it being part-time, term-time only. He does appreciate that though, as nipping off here, there & everywhere with his mother for marathons aside, it has enabled him to grow his business to the degree he has, putting in long, long hours & a lot of sweat & literal tears, as he always knew the children were looked after fully & completely, without any interruptions to their routine. I was behind that business 100% & enabled him to make it happen. He has always put that huge success down to us being a team & going for it together - him getting stuck in & me becoming Suzy Homemaker so that he has never had to worry about anything back here.

But there is definitely an element of ‘the business has grown & been taken over & now I have more time & money, so I will use that to take holidays with my mother & play golf” I have raised this before but just get “I’m living my best life” & “I’m not stopping you from taking trips away with your friends or family if you want to” But the fact that he would rather eat his eyeballs than have to take time off work to be with the girls whilst I take a trip alone during the school holidays…. I even suggested one year that we rent a villa in Cyprus for the whole summer rather than 2 or 3 weeks, so we could head out there & he could dip in & out whenever work permitted. He was like “No way! You’re not holidaying all summer without me!” But this is another story & one that will eternally boil my p!ss.

Anyway, I am just in from school, the cleaner has left, the Vicarage feels like a fresh boutique hotel (she changed the beds for me today & got the dirty & the towels through the washer & dryer, so that’s less Saturday morning chores for me) & I will head out to collect my beautiful babies in half an hour, ready for some down time & movie watching later. He is away at 6am for golf in Portugal until Tues, so tomorrow each of the girls have a friend sleeping over & my bestie (that life permits us from spending as much time together as we would like, as she works in mental health & is constantly on call) has decided to join the fun & will be here at 5pm tomorrow for the slumber parry. I am SO excited! She came over 2 weeks ago for a coffee & dog walk after us both being so busy for months & she was like “I miss this. I miss us laughing until we pee ourselves & drinking bubbles & putting the world to rights. Let me get DH to have the dogs for the weekend when I’m off & I’ll move in for a couple of days whilst Mr T is away!”

I have travelled the world with this woman. We used to live in each others pockets & ALL the money we earned in our 20’s went on trips to Australia, the US, New Zealand, Europe - you name it, we went there & had a mad adventure. I move to New Zealand & she was staying in my spare room within 3 months. She moved to Melbourne & I was at her flat 2 days after she moved into it. I love the bones of her.

So this weekend counts as a bit of ‘me time’ & washing school uniforms aside, there isn’t much else to do thanks to the cleaner! Yippee!!!

 

[Pomelo]

I love this. LOVE it.

Thank you for going into so much detail. Everything you have said makes complete sense to me & you have made some very valid points. My “little job” has always been called that by both of us, with it being part-time, term-time only. He does appreciate that though, as nipping off here, there & everywhere with his mother for marathons aside, it has enabled him to grow his business to the degree he has, putting in long, long hours & a lot of sweat & literal tears, as he always knew the children were looked after fully & completely, without any interruptions to their routine. I was behind that business 100% & enabled him to make it happen. He has always put that huge success down to us being a team & going for it together - him getting stuck in & me becoming Suzy Homemaker so that he has never had to worry about anything back here.

But there is definitely an element of ‘the business has grown & been taken over & now I have more time & money, so I will use that to take holidays with my mother & play golf” I have raised this before but just get “I’m living my best life” & “I’m not stopping you from taking trips away with your friends or family if you want to” But the fact that he would rather eat his eyeballs than have to take time off work to be with the girls whilst I take a trip alone during the school holidays…. I even suggested one year that we rent a villa in Cyprus for the whole summer rather than 2 or 3 weeks, so we could head out there & he could dip in & out whenever work permitted. He was like “No way! You’re not holidaying all summer without me!” But this is another story & one that will eternally boil my p!ss.

Anyway, I am just in from school, the cleaner has left, the Vicarage feels like a fresh boutique hotel (she changed the beds for me today & got the dirty & the towels through the washer & dryer, so that’s less Saturday morning chores for me) & I will head out to collect my beautiful babies in half an hour, ready for some down time & movie watching later. He is away at 6am for golf in Portugal until Tues, so tomorrow each of the girls have a friend sleeping over & my bestie (that life permits us from spending as much time together as we would like, as she works in mental health & is constantly on call) has decided to join the fun & will be here at 5pm tomorrow for the slumber parry. I am SO excited! She came over 2 weeks ago for a coffee & dog walk after us both being so busy for months & she was like “I miss this. I miss us laughing until we pee ourselves & drinking bubbles & putting the world to rights. Let me get DH to have the dogs for the weekend when I’m off & I’ll move in for a couple of days whilst Mr T is away!”

I have travelled the world with this woman. We used to live in each others pockets & ALL the money we earned in our 20’s went on trips to Australia, the US, New Zealand, Europe - you name it, we went there & had a mad adventure. I move to New Zealand & she was staying in my spare room within 3 months. She moved to Melbourne & I was at her flat 2 days after she moved into it. I love the bones of her.

So this weekend counts as a bit of ‘me time’ & washing school uniforms aside, there isn’t much else to do thanks to the cleaner! Yippee!!!

Sounds like you’ve got an amazing weekend planned - and well deserved!! <3

Regarding the spoils of having a successful business, both of you have put in a tremendous amount of work and it sounds like your husband is enjoying both time and geographical independence but you’re not so much! It’s worth pointing this out with a hint of humour/cheekiness, and if you want to take that holiday during term time, why not set up the hubby & kids up for success with eg babysitting, healthy meal kits etc? That way, he feels supported, the girls are old enough to enjoy being more independent, and not only do you get some time away, but also can take a mental break knowing they’ll be fine without you

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

no offence to those of you who play golf but im so glad Gary does not golf
i think about all the money we sent on his 4x4 hobby but at least i was always welcome and keen to go along on trips and compitions and weekends away

i do not understand why a grown man would want to holiday with his mother on a regular basis as opposed to his wife and own family
is MIL blind to the hurt this causes you ?
is she a loving, kind and giving grandma?

 

[Piper70]

Weaponized incompetence.

Weaponized incompetence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All true but when I step back and other people plan stuff, it rarely goes well. I started hosting family holidays at 29 because our parents are bad cooks. So I have learned to pick and choose what I will expend my time and energy on to make sure it goes well and what I will let go.
And I will say that my husband is the same with acknowledging my contributions that let him build his business from the five employees it had when he took it over to 50 now. I think there’s definitely issues with his childhood because his dad treated him that he was only as good as what he produced and that’s why he emphasizes his work and financial contributions because it makes him feel worthy.
@Ally T I hope you have a great weekend! My best friend girl group does weekends at the shore multiple times a year, and it is good food, good drinks, and so much laughter!

 

[Ally T]

no offence to those of you who play golf but im so glad Gary does not golf
i think about all the money we sent on his 4x4 hobby but at least i was always welcome and keen to go along on trips and compitions and weekends away

i do not understand why a grown man would want to holiday with his mother on a regular basis as opposed to his wife and own family
is MIL blind to the hurt this causes you ?
is she a loving, kind and giving grandma?

Because she’s a bit of a superstar in the UK for her charity contributions through marathon running. She’s 78 & likes to spend time with her sons travelling to new places & hanging out. She probably doesn’t have too many more marathons left in her, but as long as she’s still running then they will go. She’s a good woman, spoils us with kindness & all things considered, I’ll take it. She had a rotten divorce from their father when the boys were teenagers & FIL made out he was the victim. It was pretty bad - my eldest BIL didn’t actually speak to her for 15 years. It was only after FIL died that it became apparent that actually the marriage was abusive.

So…. I have no issue in her making up for lost time. And don’t get me wrong, we have fabulous holidays as a family (Caribbean every single Easter to warm my bones after winter, Mauritius, the US, Cyprus - we go all over) plus staycations in the UK & log cabins in remote places. I have done Mr T a disservice obviously, in how I must have sounded. Yes, I would LOVE for us to go on more trips together instead of him spending holiday allowance with his mother, but he gets enough allowance to go around. I just get annoyed & possibly unreasonable about it because they are ALWAYS term time trips & we are not able to go for that reason.