Are there different shades of ''I'' colour diamonds

[Jemphrey]

Hi

I am a viewer of Pricescope for a very long time and have purchased 2 diamonds in the last couple of years based on the vast knowledge received here -- a big thank you to Pricscopers.

I have now come up against a problem and I feel that I need help !

Today I received my most recent purchase of an oval cut diamond the stats are as follows

.50 carat
colour I
vs2
Polish exxcellend
symmetry very good
flour - none
facet -- medium
depts 60.6

My problem is that the ''I'' is noticibly yellow.

I also have an .71 carat round ''I'' which is a closer ''white'' to my .50 carat round ''G'' colour.

My question is -- is it possible that the difference in the shape of the diamond (ie oval and rb) would show up such a noticable difference in colour --- I am soooo disappointed.

The new diamond is from Blue Nile -- I have dealt with them before and they are brilliant.

Regards
Lily

 

[Jemphrey]

Hi

I should also mention that this new diamond comes with a GIA certificate.

thanks

 

[Mrs W]

Date: 7/31/2009 7:00:35 AM
Author:Jemphrey
Hi

I am a viewer of Pricescope for a very long time and have purchased 2 diamonds in the last couple of years based on the vast knowledge received here -- a big thank you to Pricscopers.

I have now come up against a problem and I feel that I need help !

Today I received my most recent purchase of an oval cut diamond the stats are as follows

.50 carat
colour I
vs2
Polish exxcellend
symmetry very good
flour - none
facet -- medium
depts 60.6

My problem is that the ''I'' is noticibly yellow.

I also have an .71 carat round ''I'' which is a closer ''white'' to my .50 carat round ''G'' colour.

My question is -- is it possible that the difference in the shape of the diamond (ie oval and rb) would show up such a noticable difference in colour --- I am soooo disappointed.

The new diamond is from Blue Nile -- I have dealt with them before and they are brilliant.

Regards
Lily

Yes, Fancy shapes do show color more than RB''s do

 

[Jemphrey]

Thanks Breann

I was hoping it was a mistake !

 

[Lorelei]

Breann is right that ovals can show more colour than rounds for example, to further confuse the issue cut quality can make a difference as to how a diamond shows a colour grade, well proportioned diamonds will usually show less colour than lesser cuts. Also it is possible this I is in fact nearer a J colour, some can have borderline grades such as a " low I ." If you are unhappy I would return it and look for another.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/31/2009 7:17:22 AM
Author: Mrs W

Date: 7/31/2009 7:00:35 AM
Author:Jemphrey
Hi

I am a viewer of Pricescope for a very long time and have purchased 2 diamonds in the last couple of years based on the vast knowledge received here -- a big thank you to Pricscopers.

I have now come up against a problem and I feel that I need help !

Today I received my most recent purchase of an oval cut diamond the stats are as follows

.50 carat
colour I
vs2
Polish exxcellend
symmetry very good
flour - none
facet -- medium
depts 60.6

My problem is that the ''I'' is noticibly yellow.

I also have an .71 carat round ''I'' which is a closer ''white'' to my .50 carat round ''G'' colour.

My question is -- is it possible that the difference in the shape of the diamond (ie oval and rb) would show up such a noticable difference in colour --- I am soooo disappointed.

The new diamond is from Blue Nile -- I have dealt with them before and they are brilliant.

Regards
Lily

Yes, Fancy shapes do show color more than RB''s do

True, some fancy shape tend to show more color vs. standard RB''s, more so for the longer fancy shapes as Ovals, MQ and EC.
Some *I''s* can be closer in range to *H* and sometimes to *J''s*, its a subjective call, and sometimes can easily be a missed call (even at GIA

)
also another issue needs consideration is: not all *I* colors are equal (GIA graded or others), an *I* is a measure of color tinge on a colorless Diamond, those tinges are also made of different colors and could be graded based on yellowish, brownish, olivish/greenish or even grayish tints. Unfortunately GIA only sometimes adds a comment on the nature of the color that set the grade (eg, K color based on faint brown etc...).

Hope this helps.

 

[Jemphrey]

thanks Lorelei

the funny thing is I just put the stone on the temp setting into a black inlay presentation box and the difference it makes it amazing. Really a lot whiter. The box it came in is white plastic inlay. My plan is to have the stone set into a platinum or white gold setting and I defo think that that will take away any of the ''is it or isnt it? about the stone.

Or am I deluding myself? If I keep it away from my other diamonds it looks fabulous -- the sparkle is amazing too.

thanks again.

 

[UCLABelle]

Hmmm...color and color sensitivity is always personal preference. I found that even if GIA certified (as others have stated!) there are varying cuts that show/hide color more.

I had a GIA "I" square emerald cut (and once had an Oval too). Both showed the color. I personally didn''t like it. A friend has a GIA "I" in a round, and it looks at least 2 color grades better than mine did (note: I have since switched diamonds!).

 

[Black Jade]

Will you be wearing your other diamonds with it or near it?

When I was buying my earrings from Whiteflash they asked what color my other jewelry was before they would recommend colors to me. I think maybe an I would look yellow to someone used to D''s or F''s, but would look white to someone used to J''s. It sounds like it is pretty, but are you going to like it? You can''t wear black all the time to make it look whiter!

 

[oldminer]

The cut of each diamond has an effect on its visible color tint. Obviously, D and E colors show extremely little variation due to cut, but most very other color is subject to alteration by the exact nuances of the faceting and proportions. Diamonds also look darker as they become larger in size as more light is absorbed before it leaves the stone to your eye. This effect makes the colors of larger diamonds generally look darker then smaller ones of the same GIA color. The exact cut of a larger diamond may mitigate color visibility while the smaller diamond it is being compared to may make the color more apparent creating what seems to be color matching instead of this supposed variation in visibility. You can't do more than make general statements as there are exceptions.

Within each color there is a range of exact colors which are part of each color category. "I" color is a scientific problem in that it was created more narrow in range than H or J, but that is the way the system was made 60+ years ago. We may get it fixed someday, but what's the difference or the benefit since we are so used to it already? But every color has a range of colors in it. On top of this, every color grade has a range of hues, such as brown, yellow, greenish yellow, brownish yellow, and more. Being able to handle the mental interpolation of the various hues into the GIA color system is another problem. Our eyes do not handle every color hue equally either. Our best perception is with the green colors and we see a narrower amount of other colors. This is why nmatching green colors is most challenging, because we see green with more definition. We do not see brown equally as well as yellow. This has an effect on color perception versus color grade, too.

Complex enough without evening getting into the science of it.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/31/2009 1:17:56 PM
Author: oldminer
The cut of each diamond has an effect on its visible color tint. Obviously, D and E colors show extremely little variation due to cut, but most very other color is subject to alteration by the exact nuances of the faceting and proportions. Diamonds also look darker as they become larger in size as more light is absorbed before it leaves the stone to your eye. This effect makes the colors of larger diamonds generally look darker then smaller ones of the same GIA color. The exact cut of a larger diamond may mitigate color visibility while the smaller diamond it is being compared to may make the color more apparent creating what seems to be color matching instead of this supposed variation in visibility. You can''t do more than make general statements as there are exceptions.

Within each color there is a range of exact colors which are part of each color category. ''I'' color is a scientific problem in that it was created more narrow in range than H or J, but that is the way the system was made 60+ years ago. We may get it fixed someday, but what''s the difference or the benefit since we are so used to it already? But every color has a range of colors in it. On top of this, every color grade has a range of hues, such as brown, yellow, greenish yellow, brownish yellow, and more. Being able to handle the mental interpolation of the various hues into the GIA color system is another problem. Our eyes do not handle every color hue equally either. Our best perception is with the green colors and we see a narrower amount of other colors. This is why nmatching green colors is most challenging, because we see green with more definition. We do not see brown equally as well as yellow. This has an effect on color perception versus color grade, too.

Complex enough without evening getting into the science of it.

Yes, that''s pretty complex. But interesting.
question: An I diamond would be likelier to be the same color as another I diamond than an H or J?

Why did they make this grade more narrow in range, I wonder. And are there variations in the other grades? how wide a range does D have, for instance?
thanks for answering.

 

[jstarfireb]

Dave, that''s really interesting! I had never heard of I as being any narrower than any other color grade. Does anyone know why I was made to be a narrower color grade? This piques my interest as the owner of an I.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 7/31/2009 6:47:21 PM
Author: Black Jade
Yes, that's pretty complex. But interesting.
question: An I diamond would be likelier to be the same color as another I diamond than an H or J?

Why did they make this grade more narrow in range, I wonder. And are there variations in the other grades? how wide a range does D have, for instance?
thanks for answering.

Date: 7/31/2009 11:56:33 PM
Author: jstarfireb
Dave, that's really interesting! I had never heard of I as being any narrower than any other color grade. Does anyone know why I was made to be a narrower color grade? This piques my interest as the owner of an I.

Ditto to all of both of these, including owning an I. Well, technically my fiance "owns" it, I just paid for it.

Dave, I can't get over how much knowledge you have and how well you present it, thank you for sharing your time and expertise.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/31/2009 7:36:52 AM
Author: Jemphrey
thanks Lorelei

the funny thing is I just put the stone on the temp setting into a black inlay presentation box and the difference it makes it amazing. Really a lot whiter. The box it came in is white plastic inlay. My plan is to have the stone set into a platinum or white gold setting and I defo think that that will take away any of the ''is it or isnt it? about the stone.

Or am I deluding myself? If I keep it away from my other diamonds it looks fabulous -- the sparkle is amazing too.

thanks again.

Jemphrey

I would take it on a good test drive and look at it in as many different lightings as possible, but don''t try to talk yourself into it if the warmth bothers you, if so send it back.

 

[oldminer]

The grades broaden and the color tint increases. D is quite narrow of course. The dilemma of "I" was an error in the "technology" of the period that went unrecognized for many years. Color grading of diamonds is ready for a new approach, but the market is not anxious to make changes without understanding the financial considerations first.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/1/2009 6:29:30 AM
Author: oldminer
The grades broaden and the color tint increases. D is quite narrow of course. The dilemma of ''I'' was an error in the ''technology'' of the period that went unrecognized for many years. Color grading of diamonds is ready for a new approach, but the market is not anxious to make changes without understanding the financial considerations first.

Dave, I think the *D* grade has quite a range at the labs..., (all the labs as per my experience even GIA and HRD (at AGS I have lack of experience)). there is definitely some confusion sometimes where the actual border is between where *D* meets *E*.

Regarding to the new color grading approach you are talking about..., do you specifically aim towards the polished side of grading only or both polished and rough?

 

[LD]

Just a thought ....... your other I colour (the one you say looks white), does it have fluorescence by any chance? I have an I colour pear (GIA) that is super white but does have strong blue fluor.

 

[oldminer]

D is narrow, but there is a small range. However, there is the same size gray zone between D and E as there is between any other color, such as J to K. This cross-over zone is therefore relatively larger at D/E than J/K compared to the color range of D versus the color range of J.
Also, the price differential between D to E is greater than between J to K. This is what makes dealers upset with labs and grades because the bottom line is the value of the diamond. Dealers can''t grade color any better than labs grade it. No one is a perfect grader of color, but a higher grade is always more welcomed, of course. This problem is not science, but a business reality.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/1/2009 9:50:37 AM
Author: oldminer
D is narrow, but there is a small range. However, there is the same size gray zone between D and E as there is between any other color, such as J to K. This cross-over zone is therefore relatively larger at D/E than J/K compared to the color range of D versus the color range of J.
Also, the price differential between D to E is greater than between J to K. This is what makes dealers upset with labs and grades because the bottom line is the value of the diamond. Dealers can''t grade color any better than labs grade it. No one is a perfect grader of color, but a higher grade is always more welcomed, of course. This problem is not science, but a business reality.

D, narrow? I think its the widest range from the rest as you can have a pure *D* (TypeIIa, no Nitrogen traces) and a borderline *E* (many times even actual *E*) in that specific range..., based on my experience..., you seldom encounter a genuine pure colorless *D*..., most *D''s* I have seen do have a miniscule touch of tint.

Dave..., I am interested in hearing the new approach in color grading that you mentioned above..., I know the side who would prefer to have colorless Diamonds graded for color based on face-up color appearance (as in the Fancy Colored world), but am wandering how this would be translated to rough color grading?

 

[oldminer]

I am much more involved currently with the development of grading faceted diamonds by technology. The firm I work with, as a consultant, has a laboratory in Surat which uses automated color grading along with other automated processes to render reports. A human GG is used to confirm color, but the machine gives what we consider to be results eqaul to the best human grading. It is challenging to say "better than human" grading and to prove it with words on this forum. One must consider a machine never has an off day, a headache or gets tired. Machines can simply be more consistent and repeatable. Accuracy is something difficult to prove to skeptics because the grading system we currently use is from technology of many decades ago although it is my belief the accuracy is very good on 98% of stones processed. That''s why a GG is still needed, the 2% and to keep us constantly assured that things are going properly.

If one of the science guru''s would comment on the size of the color grades, it would be apparent that D is not a wide grade, but it does have a range of tint. The big thing about D is how much less a diamond is worth if it comes close to D but fails to get a D color grade on a report. What dealers see as a range of color in D is thinly split hairs of color difference which all potentially mean a great deal. Where the color range can be much larger, like a K color, no dealer really cares about the exact tint of K. I feel it is a money thing, more than anything physical.

The firm I consult with recently announced a diamond grading report with all the bells and whistles which starts at $21 per stone. This is a whole lot less than GIA or AGS, or what I charge for diamond grading reports. They feel that their automated equipment which handles all light behavior grading, re-identification of the stone, all parametric measurements, color grade and fluorescence grade with one insertion of the diamond into a single piece of equipment within a 3 minute period is so highly efficient that the biggest labs must eventually take a look at the possibilities automation can bring to diamond grading. One more piece of equipment uses immersion to map clarity in 3D, render a plot and assign a clarity grade.
This is also under review by a GG, of course.

Since the thread is on color grading, I''ll mention that this machine grades color to 1/3 of a grade with 1/3 grade accuracy. It assigns a D1, D2 or D3 grade to D color stones, so it does see a range of D as wide enough to divide into three parts. I somehow don''t think consumers will love such defined grading. Would anyone want a D3 if they were seeking perfection? Could dealers sell D3''s? I think this is not the approach any dealer or consumer would choose, so the GIA system is being left in place on reports at this time.

In theory, the color could be reported as a set of numbers in the universal three dimensional color space. This would be nearly impossible for the market to work with. We need to remain realistic.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/1/2009 4:42:23 PM
Author: oldminer
I am much more involved currently with the development of grading faceted diamonds by technology. The firm I work with, as a consultant, has a laboratory in Surat which uses automated color grading along with other automated processes to render reports. A human GG is used to confirm color, but the machine gives what we consider to be results eqaul to the best human grading. It is challenging to say ''better than human'' grading and to prove it with words on this forum. One must consider a machine never has an off day, a headache or gets tired. Machines can simply be more consistent and repeatable. Accuracy is something difficult to prove to skeptics because the grading system we currently use is from technology of many decades ago although it is my belief the accuracy is very good on 98% of stones processed. That''s why a GG is still needed, the 2% and to keep us constantly assured that things are going properly.

I just wonder how this can be correlated into a system which will work side by side with rough Diamond color grading..., after all, the rough buyer will need to be able to grade the rough based on the polished results this technology brings..., seems a bit far-fetched...

If one of the science guru''s would comment on the size of the color grades, it would be apparent that D is not a wide grade, but it does have a range of tint. The big thing about D is how much less a diamond is worth if it comes close to D but fails to get a D color grade on a report. What dealers see as a range of color in D is thinly split hairs of color difference which all potentially mean a great deal. Where the color range can be much larger, like a K color, no dealer really cares about the exact tint of K. I feel it is a money thing, more than anything physical.

Every dealer wants the highest grade as it is translated into value..., in the K example you mentioned, the dealer would care very much if the Diamond would possess a correct amount of blue fluo. to make the K appear like an H

.

The firm I consult with recently announced a diamond grading report with all the bells and whistles which starts at $21 per stone. This is a whole lot less than GIA or AGS, or what I charge for diamond grading reports. They feel that their automated equipment which handles all light behavior grading, re-identification of the stone, all parametric measurements, color grade and fluorescence grade with one insertion of the diamond into a single piece of equipment within a 3 minute period is so highly efficient that the biggest labs must eventually take a look at the possibilities automation can bring to diamond grading. One more piece of equipment uses immersion to map clarity in 3D, render a plot and assign a clarity grade.
This is also under review by a GG, of course.

Since the thread is on color grading, I''ll mention that this machine grades color to 1/3 of a grade with 1/3 grade accuracy. It assigns a D1, D2 or D3 grade to D color stones, so it does see a range of D as wide enough to divide into three parts. I somehow don''t think consumers will love such defined grading. Would anyone want a D3 if they were seeking perfection? Could dealers sell D3''s? I think this is not the approach any dealer or consumer would choose, so the GIA system is being left in place on reports at this time.

I agree..., thats one of the biggest problems the new "Yehuda" rough colorimeter has..., every color it reveals comes with three assignments (eg H-/H/H+ with a +/- margin of error of a half grade)..., to me it means that you cant rely on those, I am one of the few rough buyers that doesnt use this colorimeter. And yes..., I am a weird duck in the landscape!

In theory, the color could be reported as a set of numbers in the universal three dimensional color space. This would be nearly impossible for the market to work with. We need to remain realistic.

 

[Jemphrey]

thanks to everyone to responded -- I really appreciate all the advice.
I had already decided what kind of setting I wanted and took it to my jeweller on saturday so it will be ready in two -three weeks cant wait.

Before I decided to keep it, I took it on road trip , in the pouring rain and looked at it in various different lights, shadows, surrounds etc . I think I may have over reacted as I really love the diamond.

It is definately a different colour to my rb ''I'' but I will not be wearing all my rings together.

I read in another post a very good comment about how we scrutinise diamonds ourselves but in real life who looks at them that closely anyway.

thanks again and cant wait to get it back now.

 

[marcy]

Interesting question and discussion. I sure notice color more in fancy shapes than RB and probably would return one that had too much warmth in it.