Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Are people who are out and about winning at life?

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
3,791
Oh hell no. I think we should just accept that people are going to die from this or its aftereffects and not beat our breasts in faux mortification for all the young people who are now dying in hospitals, for all the little kids who are experiencing horrific issues, for all the elderly who continue to die. I have no problem at all with mother nature clearing out the overload of homo sapiens who are driving so many other species to extinction. When all those who are hiding emerge from their basements, the world just might be a better place.
I'm a bit thick this morning! Are you being sarcastic?

Or are you genuinely ok with this being a "survival of the fittest" thing cuz your previous posts made it sound like you weren't?
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
7,135
I'm a bit thick this morning! Are you being sarcastic?

Or are you genuinely ok with this being a "survival of the fittest" thing cuz your previous posts made it sound like you weren't?
No sarcasm. My previous posts were just discussion because I think you were approaching the issue only from your me-centric position and your response to the concerns other expressed seemed a bit shallow and I wanted to suss out whether I was reading the wrong tone in your responses.
 

kb1gra

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
823
If I lived in the USA I wouldn't be leaving my house either. The numbers there are horrifying. I'm still being quite cautious here in Canada.

As for the house, I understand wanting a project during these times. I got a puppy for the same reason. Perhaps if you're questioning it that's a sign it's not the time for it. I think only you (and your spouse if applicable) can really answer if now is the time for a new or second house.
This is exactly the problem.

"The numbers" there are not indicative of the country as a whole. Where I am, 1200 miles from the coast of Florida, we had 9 new cases yesterday in the entire county, which is 8 separate towns. Nobody has died in two weeks. Of those who died, over 90% were in nursing homes.

Are we supposed to lose our livelihoods and stay on house arrest on the off chance that it will mean that people in Florida don't get sick? No, that would be preposterous. But that's what people are proposing all the same.

I don't work in biochemistry anymore, but my education is biochemistry and microbiology. It's completely baffling to me that people take this so seriously that they are willing to shut the world down but absolutely laugh off when 4000 people on a cruise ship get norovirus as if that's normal and this is not.

You've had a coronavirus. You don't think twice before going outside in flu season, even though flu reliably kills people. You didn't panic about SARS or MERS. You accept getting the common cold as a fact of life. Foodborne illness? Fine. People not vaccinating their kids for measles? Annoying, but that's their right. But this one - the people who don't wear their masks are killers. Really?
 
Last edited:

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
1,191
I'm a bit thick this morning! Are you being sarcastic?

Or are you genuinely ok with this being a "survival of the fittest" thing cuz your previous posts made it sound like you weren't?
No sarcasm. My previous posts were just discussion because I think you were approaching the issue only from your me-centric position and your response to the concerns other expressed seemed a bit shallow and I wanted to suss out whether I was reading the wrong tone in your responses.
I think maybe you two have a disconnect. One of you is living in a place where the level of community transmission is probably similar to what the US was experiencing in Feburary of this year. In feburary when the thread on 'are you afraid of covid' first started no one in the US was perporting isolating, and most of the early responses from the US say quite confidently that the flu is a far bigger problem.

Self isolating in NSW in Australia right at the moment would be pretty similar to having self isolated in (several location in) the US in feburary -- I don't think anyone here would have done it or would have advocated for it. It certainly wasn't the sentiment being expressed in the other threads here. This is perhaps also a hard one victory for australia which did lock down pretty thoroughly during march and april -- and if people are living more liberally because of it then that may be quid pro quo.

On the flip side there possibly is a highly nontrivial risk right at the moment of catching covid in some of the US states simply by sitting in a sushi reseteraunt for a half an hour, and if you even plan on consulting a dr (as Australia strongly advocates early detection is one of the leading reasons they have such low death counts this would be the only sane plan) then you can't help but put someone else at risk and maybe even a whole waiting room full of people simply by catching it. So there is an element of personal responsibility in not living too cavalierly in some US states at the moment.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
7,135
It's completely baffling to me that people take this so seriously that they are willing to shut the world down but absolutely laugh off when 4000 people on a cruise ship get norovirus as if that's normal and this is not.

You've had a coronavirus. You don't think twice before going outside in flu season, even though flu reliably kills people. You didn't panic about SARS or MERS. You accept getting the common cold as a fact of life. Foodborne illness? Fine. People not vaccinating their kids for measles? Annoying, but that's their right. But this one - the people who don't wear their masks are killers. Really?
You're comparing apples to oranges. There is no immunity (yet) to the covid virus while global immunity exists for the flu. There is a vaccine for the flu, not yet for covid virus. In the US CDC estimates for 10/1/2019 thru 4/4/2020 there were between 39,000,000-56,000,000 cases of flu with between 24,000-62,000 deaths. Currently, nearly 5 months into the outbreak, we are in excess of 130,000 deaths from covid. Common cold deaths and those from food borne illness are nowhere near that of covid nor are the long-term physical after effects from those illnesses as serious as from covid. In the US, CDC reports approx 900 deaths per year from norovirus. I don't know whether people are laughing off (as you stated above) norovirus or whether they are taking the same calculated risk that people are advocating during the covid pandemic.

In the US there is a lot of pushback toward those who don't vaccinate their kids and the message as been consistent about getting those vaccinations. From the CDC:
During January 1–April 26, 2019, a total of 704 measles cases were reported in 22 states (Figure 1); the highest number of weekly cases (87) were reported during the week ending March 23 (Figure 2). Median patient age was 5 years (interquartile range = 1 year to 18.5 years); 25 (4%) patients were aged <6 months, 68 (10%) 6–11 months, 76 (11%) 12–15 months, 167 (24%) 16 months–4 years, 203 (29%) 5–19 years, 138 (20%) 20–49 years, and 27 (4%) ≥50 years (Table). Among all measles patients, 503 (71%) were unvaccinated, 76 (11%) were vaccinated (received ≥1 measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine), and the vaccination status of 125 (18%) was unknown. Overall, 66 (9%) patients were hospitalized, and 24 (3%) had pneumonia. No deaths or cases of encephalitis were reported to CDC.

Of the 704 total cases, 663 (94%) were associated with outbreaks; 13 outbreaks have been reported in 2019. Outbreak-related cases have been reported in 12 states† and New York City; multistate transmission was documented in four outbreaks. Six outbreaks were associated with underimmunized close-knit communities and accounted for 88% of all cases. New York state and New York City accounted for 474 (67%) of all cases reported in 2019 and have had ongoing transmission since October 2018.

Among the 704 cases, 689 (98%) occurred in U.S. residents. Forty-four cases were directly imported from other countries, including 34 (77%) that occurred in U.S. residents; 23 imports resulted in no known secondary cases. Among the 44 internationally imported measles cases, 40 (91%) were in unvaccinated persons or persons whose vaccination status was unknown; all 40 were age-eligible for vaccination, including two infant travelers aged 6–11 months. Source countries included Philippines (14 cases), Ukraine (, Israel (5), Thailand (3), Vietnam (2), Germany (2), and one importation each from Algeria, France, India, Lithuania, Russia, and the United Kingdom. Four travelers went to multiple countries during their exposure period, including Italy/Singapore, Thailand/Cambodia, Ukraine/Israel, and Cambodia/Thailand/China/Singapore. Among 245 (35%) cases for which molecular sequencing was performed, B3 and D8 were the only genotypes identified, which were the most commonly detected genotypes worldwide in the past 12 months.


Chicken pox to date in 2020: 362 cases, no deaths; mumps as of April 2020 736 cases with no deaths. The vaccination program in the US is working despite the anti vaxxer groups.
 

kb1gra

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
823
Chicken pox to date in 2020: 362 cases, no deaths; mumps as of April 2020 736 cases with no deaths. The vaccination program in the US is working despite the anti vaxxer groups.
You cited illnesses that weren't in my post. I spoke about measles; you conveniently left it out because its figures are not nearly as good:

Provisional data from the World Health Organizationexternal icon (WHO) indicate that during 2019 there were more measles cases reported worldwide than in any year since 2006. More than 500,000 confirmed cases of measles were reported from more than 180 countries, many from large measles outbreaks. Case numbers in 2019 dwarfed the 353,236 confirmed measles cases reported to WHO in 2018. Measles case numbers are underreported so the numbers of confirmed cases may not reflect the full burden of measles cases in a country. According to the latest data available, in 2018, it is estimated that more than 140,000 individuals died of measles.

As to your first point, we do have immunity to this coronavirus. A study was just published on July 7 in which serological samples taken between 2015 and 2018, predating any existence of this coronavirus, were tested and fully 50% showed T cell reactivity to SARS-Cov-2 spike proteins. Even better? that study cited five other recent studies, all with the same result; seronegative samples show CD4 or CD8 reactivity that can be attributed to previous exposure to coronaviruses.

Taken together, five studies report evidence of pre-existing T cells that recognize SARS-CoV-2 in a significant fraction of people from diverse geographical locations.

It is, however, convenient for the narrative to not bring this point up.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
7,135
You cited illnesses that weren't in my post. I spoke about measles; you conveniently left it out because its figures are not nearly as good:
The 3 italicized paragraphs in my response to you are about measles from the CDC. I included mumps and chicken pox because they are part of the vaccination schedule which you mentioned. All the other illnesses I addressed were in your post. There is mounting evidence, from what I've read today that a currently small (but doctors said increasing) group of people are becoming reinfected with the virus 6 weeks after two PCR showed no virus present. This is causing some disquiet about whether herd immunity is possible.

This is a snippet of the article that I emailed to my DH who is a physician but I unfortunately didn't bookmark the article and can't remember where I saw it.
My belief is that the only thing we are certain about for this particular virus is that we have a lot more to learn. Snippet:

Regardless, the limited research so far on recovered Covid-19 patients shows that not all patients develop antibodies after infection. Some patients, and particularly those who never develop symptoms, mount an antibody response immediately after infection only to have it wane quickly afterward — an issue of increasing scientific concern.


What’s more, repeat infections in a short time period are a feature of many viruses, including other coronaviruses. So if some Covid-19 patients are getting reinfected after a second exposure, it would not be particularly unusual.

In general, the unknowns of immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 currently outweigh the knowns. We do not know how much immunity to expect once someone is infected with the virus, we do not know how long that immunity may last, and we do not know how many antibodies are needed to mount an effective response. And although there is some hope regarding cellular immunity (including T-cell responses) in the absence of a durable antibody response, the early evidence of reinfections puts the effectiveness of these immune responses in question as well.

Also troubling is that my patient’s case, and others like his, may dim the hope for natural herd immunity. Herd immunity depends on the theory that our immune systems, once exposed to a pathogen, will collectively protect us as a community from reinfection and further spread.

There are several pathways out of this pandemic, including safe, effective, and available therapeutics and vaccines, as well as herd immunity (or some combination thereof).
 

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
3,791
No sarcasm. My previous posts were just discussion because I think you were approaching the issue only from your me-centric position and your response to the concerns other expressed seemed a bit shallow and I wanted to suss out whether I was reading the wrong tone in your responses.
I could have straight up told you I'm a simpleton. I've never been very good at lofty deep world views. I'm super basic! But I know it!!! I make a good grunt for doing grunt work!!!
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
7,135
could have straight up told you I'm a simpleton. I've never been very good at lofty deep world views. I'm super basic! But I know it!!! I make a good grunt for doing grunt work!!!
Sorry, not buying that. I read your posts, you're not a simpleton. I'm super basic too -- bitchy will a thin layer of compassion that keeps me out of jail.
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
679
This is exactly the problem.

"The numbers" there are not indicative of the country as a whole. Where I am, 1200 miles from the coast of Florida, we had 9 new cases yesterday in the entire county, which is 8 separate towns. Nobody has died in two weeks. Of those who died, over 90% were in nursing homes.

Are we supposed to lose our livelihoods and stay on house arrest on the off chance that it will mean that people in Florida don't get sick? No, that would be preposterous. But that's what people are proposing all the same.

I don't work in biochemistry anymore, but my education is biochemistry and microbiology. It's completely baffling to me that people take this so seriously that they are willing to shut the world down but absolutely laugh off when 4000 people on a cruise ship get norovirus as if that's normal and this is not.

You've had a coronavirus. You don't think twice before going outside in flu season, even though flu reliably kills people. You didn't panic about SARS or MERS. You accept getting the common cold as a fact of life. Foodborne illness? Fine. People not vaccinating their kids for measles? Annoying, but that's their right. But this one - the people who don't wear their masks are killers. Really?
Yes, REALLY!

I find it utterly shocking that, with your background, you would sit there and compare
COVID-19 to norovirus on cruise ships or flu or the common cold or SARS or MERS. Your comparisons are ludicrous, and now I'll tell you why.

1) Norovirus almost never kills. A sufferer may wish they were dead for a while, but they almost certainly won't be and will be right as rain in 48-72 hours. The only people at risk of death from it are extremely frail, extremely sickly, extremely elderly, or extremely immune-compromised individuals, and even they are likely to survive it with prompt anti-emetics, electrolytes, and fluids. Oh, and by the way - your numbers are incorrect and are hyperbole. The largest norovirus outbreak there has ever been on a cruise ship to date was 689 people - nowhere near 4000. ETA: And yes, I and quite a few other people I know don't ever plan to set foot on a cruise for that very reason.

2) According to the CDC, the 2019-2020 flu season caused less than 60,000 deaths in the US. We've had fewer months of COVID-19 than one flu season, and we've had, as of the moment of this writing, 134,572 deaths in the US - and case numbers are ramping up in more states than not. We have a flu vaccine, for crying out loud. Flu so far has not caused the extent of long-lasting illness, and possible organ damage, as this virus. As far as my responsibility to others concerning flu - I don't go out if I think I might possibly have it. I go out much, much less during flu season because of the flu. I don't go out unnecessarily, and when I do go out, I'm very diligent about hygiene. Now that I have some familiarity with masks and the place they play in infectious disease control, I might wear one out in public during flu season, and I certainly will if I think I've been exposed. I also will never get on another airplane at any time, any season, for any reason, without a mask on the entire time from this point onward.

3) The common cold? Please. I don't even need to dignify this with a comment.

4) The risk of an American catching SARS is almost non-existent. That virus has been contained due to a combination of a great deal of effort and diligence from public health experts who didn't blow it off the way that some folks apparently want them to with the current virus, plus the fact that the SARS virus caused such severe illness and often death so quickly without a period of presymptomatic infectiousness that it was difficult for it to infect enough others to spread quickly.

5) I don't think many Americans are going to the Middle East to get licked by camels, so......not much MERS in circulation here, to put it lightly.

6) Food-borne illness is not a blase, "no big deal." We have a national tracking and recall system for exactly that reason. We are constantly reminded about food safety guidelines. Restaurants are inspected regularly and are expected to meet guidelines or be shut down. Restaurant chains, such as Chipotle, that have been responsible for food-borne illness outbreaks have suffered serious economic blows for losing public trust. These kinds of outbreaks, though, don't pass from original points of transmission through long chains of infection throughout the population - they are considerably easier to track, pin down, isolate, and contain. They also don't cause the level of death and disability that this virus has at this point.

7) People not vaccinating their kid for measles is a BIG DEAL. Nobody but ridiculous anti-vaxxers are waving that off like no big deal. It IS a big deal and it's been a big deal in the news and in public health circles. It would be a bigger deal except for the fact that.....well, see - we have a vaccine for it. Reasonable people will be vaccinated, and those that cannot be or who are too old to be able to reliably mount a robust immune response to a vaccine will need to be sheltered from the idiot anti-vaxxers in the meantime. Communities are struggling very much with this issue. It's a big issue in terms of admittance to school. Reasonable people are not waving it off as "that's their right."

The virus causing COVID-19 is completely novel to humans. When the pandemic first started, responsible officials had absolutely no freakin' clue how bad it was going to be, or pretty much anything else about it - unlike the illnesses you're comparing it to. The only responsible course was a very cautious one. We know a bit more now - some reassuring, some deeply concerning - but a great, great deal is still unknown, including the picture around immunity and around long-term damage and disability. We HAVE learned that it is infectious prior to symptom-onset, and possibly even without any symptoms whatsoever, and that it has mutated to become even more infectious than it's original form. There is credible concern that it persists more in aerosolized form than we thought before. We don't have a vaccine for it. We don't have a good treatment for it. Therefore, yes - not distancing as much as possible, especially indoors, and not wearing a mask, even if there aren't many cases around you at the moment, and even if you yourself are not a high-risk person, is putting high-risk people that you will be around in the future at risk. Do you go to the grocery store? Well, guess what - even the highest-risk person who is trying as hard as they can to avoid contact with others still needs to eat to live. Do you go for any kind of non-COVID medical care? Well, guess what - they need to do some of that too. Do you get Rx's filled? Guess what - they need to as well, and not every pharmacy delivers. Do you have to go to the BMV? Guess what - they need to as well, even if they desperately don't want to.

As far as few cases around you - how do you think Arizona and Texas and Florida got where they are now? From people who think, "Oh, there aren't many cases here! And I'm young! I don't need to take these precautions! I should be able to do what I want!"

Nobody is asking for "everyone to lose their livelihoods" or "everyone to be on house arrest," but those of us who are high-risk people or who love high-risk people are asking that, while we are literally hunkered down and not leaving our house or property unless it's completely unavoidable, and living off our retirement savings because it's not safe for us to be in a workplace right now, and paying out the rear to get food and necessary items delivered, and praying extra-hard that we and our pets don't need any medical care, and living in fear but trying to stay sane, and generally not able to live our lives at all, the rest of you who could infect us actually take it seriously and think about how your choices affect others, avoid a bunch of UNNECESSARY trips out, try to keep your socialization lessened and restricted to a safer small "bubble", and show some diligent responsibility about distancing, staying outdoors, wearing masks, etc. when you do go out.

Oh - and not spread misinformation on the internet comparing this to the common cold.
 
Last edited:

Daisys and Diamonds

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
4,950
Forgot to answer about the house so here it is!

I'm biased OP because I just bought a house just before Covid and it's been such a bright spot for us.

There is soooooo much more space which really helped during lockdown. My sister has her own room and come summer if we get locked down again we have our own pool.

It would have been more challenging to lock down at the old house.

Bigger homes are not essential but if they enhance your life and you can afford it, why not? I'm all for doing whatever makes life a bit brighter these days. As long as it's legal!
We rented for too many years
45m2 plus a garage is too small for two people and their kitty
thank God here if we have a fight we have other rooms to go to and a big flat back yard (sometimes Borris likes alone time too)
I guess im a happyish hermit
Gary is immune compromised and is 68
Bruce Springsteen (70) and his wife Patty are holed up on their New Jersey ranch
I look forward to the day when he can get the band back on the road and tour again
I want the old nornal to come back
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
7,135
As to your first point, we do have immunity to this coronavirus. A study was just published on July 7 in which serological samples taken between 2015 and 2018, predating any existence of this coronavirus, were tested and fully 50% showed T cell reactivity to SARS-Cov-2 spike proteins. Even better? that study cited five other recent studies, all with the same result; seronegative samples show CD4 or CD8 reactivity that can be attributed to previous exposure to coronaviruses.

Taken together, five studies report evidence of pre-existing T cells that recognize SARS-CoV-2 in a significant fraction of people from diverse geographical locations.

It is, however, convenient for the narrative to not bring this point up.
Here's the disclaimer from the site regarding this and other reports: "bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice/health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
679
On the flip side there possibly is a highly nontrivial risk right at the moment of catching covid in some of the US states simply by sitting in a sushi reseteraunt for a half an hour, and if you even plan on consulting a dr (as Australia strongly advocates early detection is one of the leading reasons they have such low death counts this would be the only sane plan) then you can't help but put someone else at risk and maybe even a whole waiting room full of people simply by catching it. So there is an element of personal responsibility in not living too cavalierly in some US states at the moment.
Yes, exactly.
 

Daisys and Diamonds

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
4,950
I think maybe you two have a disconnect. One of you is living in a place where the level of community transmission is probably similar to what the US was experiencing in Feburary of this year. In feburary when the thread on 'are you afraid of covid' first started no one in the US was perporting isolating, and most of the early responses from the US say quite confidently that the flu is a far bigger problem.

Self isolating in NSW in Australia right at the moment would be pretty similar to having self isolated in (several location in) the US in feburary -- I don't think anyone here would have done it or would have advocated for it. It certainly wasn't the sentiment being expressed in the other threads here. This is perhaps also a hard one victory for australia which did lock down pretty thoroughly during march and april -- and if people are living more liberally because of it then that may be quid pro quo.

On the flip side there possibly is a highly nontrivial risk right at the moment of catching covid in some of the US states simply by sitting in a sushi reseteraunt for a half an hour, and if you even plan on consulting a dr (as Australia strongly advocates early detection is one of the leading reasons they have such low death counts this would be the only sane plan) then you can't help but put someone else at risk and maybe even a whole waiting room full of people simply by catching it. So there is an element of personal responsibility in not living too cavalierly in some US states at the moment.
I agree
i also think the situation in most of Australia and all of NZ is far different to whats happening in the UK, USA, Italy, Spain etc
we don't have community retransmission here in NZ, but im still being careful
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,043
Yes, REALLY!

I find it utterly shocking that, with your background, you would sit there and compare
COVID-19 to norovirus on cruise ships or flu or the common cold or SARS or MERS. Your comparisons are ludicrous, and now I'll tell you why.

1) Norovirus almost never kills. A sufferer may wish they were dead for a while, but they almost certainly won't be and will be right as rain in 48-72 hours. The only people at risk of death from it are extremely frail, extremely sickly, extremely elderly, or extremely immune-compromised individuals, and even they are likely to survive it with prompt anti-emetics, electrolytes, and fluids. Oh, and by the way - your numbers are incorrect and are hyperbole. The largest norovirus outbreak there has ever been on a cruise ship to date was 689 people - nowhere near 4000. ETA: And yes, I and quite a few other people I know don't ever plan to set foot on a cruise for that very reason.

2) According to the CDC, the 2019-2020 flu season caused less than 60,000 deaths in the US. We've had fewer months of COVID-19 than one flu season, and we've had, as of the moment of this writing, 134,572 deaths in the US - and case numbers are ramping up in more states than not. We have a flu vaccine, for crying out loud. Flu so far has not caused the extent of long-lasting illness, and possible organ damage, as this virus. As far as my responsibility to others concerning flu - I don't go out if I think I might possibly have it. I go out much, much less during flu season because of the flu. I don't go out unnecessarily, and when I do go out, I'm very diligent about hygiene. Now that I have some familiarity with masks and the place they play in infectious disease control, I might wear one out in public during flu season, and I certainly will if I think I've been exposed. I also will never get on another airplane at any time, any season, for any reason, without a mask on the entire time from this point onward.

3) The common cold? Please. I don't even need to dignify this with a comment.

4) The risk of an American catching SARS is almost non-existent. That virus has been contained due to a combination of a great deal of effort and diligence from public health experts who didn't blow it off the way that some folks apparently want them to with the current virus, plus the fact that the SARS virus caused such severe illness and often death so quickly without a period of presymptomatic infectiousness that it was difficult for it to infect enough others to spread quickly.

5) I don't think many Americans are going to the Middle East to get licked by camels, so......not much MERS in circulation here, to put it lightly.

6) Food-borne illness is not a blase, "no big deal." We have a national tracking and recall system for exactly that reason. We are constantly reminded about food safety guidelines. Restaurants are inspected regularly and are expected to meet guidelines or be shut down. Restaurant chains, such as Chipotle, that have been responsible for food-borne illness outbreaks have suffered serious economic blows for losing public trust. These kinds of outbreaks, though, don't pass from original points of transmission through long chains of infection throughout the population - they are considerably easier to track, pin down, isolate, and contain. They also don't cause the level of death and disability that this virus has at this point.

7) People not vaccinating their kid for measles is a BIG DEAL. Nobody but ridiculous anti-vaxxers are waving that off like no big deal. It IS a big deal and it's been a big deal in the news and in public health circles. It would be a bigger deal except for the fact that.....well, see - we have a vaccine for it. Reasonable people will be vaccinated, and those that cannot be or who are too old to be able to reliably mount a robust immune response to a vaccine will need to be sheltered from the idiot anti-vaxxers in the meantime. Communities are struggling very much with this issue. It's a big issue in terms of admittance to school. Reasonable people are not waving it off as "that's their right."

The virus causing COVID-19 is completely novel to humans. When the pandemic first started, responsible officials had absolutely no freakin' clue how bad it was going to be, or pretty much anything else about it - unlike the illnesses you're comparing it to. The only responsible course was a very cautious one. We know a bit more now - some reassuring, some deeply concerning - but a great, great deal is still unknown, including the picture around immunity and around long-term damage and disability. We HAVE learned that it is infectious prior to symptom-onset, and possibly even without any symptoms whatsoever, and that it has mutated to become even more infectious than it's original form. There is credible concern that it persists more in aerosolized form than we thought before. We don't have a vaccine for it. We don't have a good treatment for it. Therefore, yes - not distancing as much as possible, especially indoors, and not wearing a mask, even if there aren't many cases around you at the moment, and even if you yourself are not a high-risk person, is putting high-risk people that you will be around in the future at risk. Do you go to the grocery store? Well, guess what - even the highest-risk person who is trying as hard as they can to avoid contact with others still needs to eat to live. Do you go for any kind of non-COVID medical care? Well, guess what - they need to do some of that too. Do you get Rx's filled? Guess what - they need to as well, and not every pharmacy delivers. Do you have to go to the BMV? Guess what - they need to as well, even if they desperately don't want to.

As far as few cases around you - how do you think Arizona and Texas and Florida got where they are now? From people who think, "Oh, there aren't many cases here! And I'm young! I don't need to take these precautions! I should be able to do what I want!"

Nobody is asking for "everyone to lose their livelihoods" or "everyone to be on house arrest," but those of us who are high-risk people or who love high-risk people are asking that, while we are literally hunkered down and not leaving our house or property unless it's completely unavoidable, and living off our retirement savings because it's not safe for us to be in a workplace right now, and paying out the rear to get food and necessary items delivered, and praying extra-hard that we and our pets don't need any medical care, and living in fear but trying to stay sane, and generally not able to live our lives at all, the rest of you who could infect us actually take it seriously and think about how your choices affect others, avoid a bunch of UNNECESSARY trips out, try to keep your socialization lessened and restricted to a safer small "bubble", and show some diligent responsibility about distancing, staying outdoors, wearing masks, etc. when you do go out.

Oh - and not spread misinformation on the internet comparing this to the common cold.
WOW @OboeGal! We've gone rounds on this before, but this post was very powerful and very compelling. I agree with and have heard/read most of what you've posted here. That other thread gave me a lot of food for thought. While I don't want to wear a mask, I have when I've been forced to enter an establishment. Since March 19th, I've not entered any indoor businesses except for three (bank and post office). My husband does all the shopping we can't do online since wearing a mask doesn't bother him, and he hasn't been working.

This post, the last paragraph especially, is very compelling. You've caused me to see things in a different light. Thank you.

Just this week I heard that humans have already been exposed to six other coronaviruses in the past, I didn't realize there were that many. Do you have any thoughts on how this strain is similar/different to those other 6 that makes it so much more dangerous?
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
1,191
I agree
i also think the situation in most of Australia and all of NZ is far different to whats happening in the UK, USA, Italy, Spain etc
we don't have community retransmission here in NZ, but im still being careful
Yes currently australia and nz are comparatively extremely safe. Advice from the US wont be particularly relevant to Australians or Kiwis and vice versa. There's simply too much of a disconnect in circumstances for it to translate well.
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
679
WOW @OboeGal! We've gone rounds on this before, but this post was very powerful and very compelling. I agree with and have heard/read most of what you've posted here. That other thread gave me a lot of food for thought. While I don't want to wear a mask, I have when I've been forced to enter an establishment. Since March 19th, I've not entered any indoor businesses except for three (bank and post office). My husband does all the shopping we can't do online since wearing a mask doesn't bother him, and he hasn't been working.

This post, the last paragraph especially, is very compelling. You've caused me to see things in a different light. Thank you.

Just this week I heard that humans have already been exposed to six other coronaviruses in the past, I didn't realize there were that many. Do you have any thoughts on how this strain is similar/different to those other 6 that makes it so much more dangerous?
Thank you so much for this - it really means a lot to me. I feel very heard. =)2

Based on what I've read, it's my understanding that the reason we are responding so differently to this new coronavirus than we are to some others is because it's novel to us as a species - we have no antibodies to it, nor do our innate immune systems have any "memory" of previous exposure, nor has there been time for evolutionary pressure to "weed out" those who have traits that make them more vulnerable to it. The same was true, of course, when we encountered SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV; the case fatality rate for SARS was 11% and for MERS, a frightening 34.3%. That is why there was a tremendous public health response to each. (Fortunately, SARS cases are very, very rare, as it is monitored VERY closely by public health officials, is not quite as infectious as SARS-CoV-2, wasn't known to be infectious without symptoms, and because it made people so sick so quickly that they didn't tend to feel well enough to go "out and about" with it. All this makes it have more difficulty transmitting to new hosts, so makes outbreaks easier to contain. MERS-CoV is also fairly rare; it jumped to humans from camels, and most cases even now come from contact with them. It has difficulty going from human to human and requires fairly close contact to do so, so most human-to-human transmission occurs in hospital settings.)

The other four coronaviruses are likely to be so mild in humans because we have been living with them in circulation for a very, very long time. At one time, they may have caused more severe illness, and killed off those more vulnerable, leaving those less vulnerable to reproduce and pass on their "robustness" against it. Evolutionary pressure in the viruses in response to that over such a long, long period of time might also have led to them mutating to be milder in later generations of humans, as the virus needs living, circulating hosts to pass it to more hosts. (I'm probably butchering this explanation, as I don't have expertise in this and am just going off my basic understanding based on material I've read. I'm very open to correction from those with more expertise! :geek:) It's likely some combination of these mechanisms have led to their mild courses. Of course, it's also possible that those viruses have characteristics that never really "jacked up" very many humans that badly once infected, and have always been relatively mild. I don't really know enough about those four viruses to speak to that.

I hope that made sense (and wasn't too wildly inaccurate)!
 

Daisys and Diamonds

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
4,950
Yes currently australia and nz are comparatively extremely safe. Advice from the US wont be particularly relevant to Australians or Kiwis and vice versa. There's simply too much of a disconnect in circumstances for it to translate well.
Absolutely and my heart breaks for what is happening in the US right now

if we had done nothing in March we would be as bad as US, UK Spain etc but we had a tiny bit of time up our sleeve due to being slightly protected by our more remote geography
Then we hunkered down and did what we were told and we didn't complain that much

we are now on a completly different part - keeping covid out - not just under control

Poor old Melbourne is having a hard time of it and is a lesson to us in quarenteen management and what will happen if we drop our guard
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
1,191
Absolutely and my heart breaks for what is happening in the US right now

if we had done nothing in March we would be as bad as US, UK Spain etc but we had a tiny bit of time up our sleeve due to being slightly protected by our more remote geography
Then we hunkered down and did what we were told and we didn't complain that much

we are now on a completly different part - keeping covid out - not just under control

Poor old Melbourne is having a hard time of it and is a lesson to us in quarenteen management and what will happen if we drop our guard
There are no words for that slip up other than supremely stupid. And it is better left at that.
 

Austina

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
4,342
I don’t live in the US, so our situation is different. We entered lockdown on the 18th March, an didn’t go out at all until we were advised that we could meet a friend outside for a social distancing walk, I think that was towards the end of May. We then met up with friends for a weekly walk after that. A few weeks ago, we were able to go to a friends house, only in their garden not in the house, so we did that. We have only been out to a shop a couple of times in the last couple of weeks, masked and gloved. We haven’t been to any restaurants and don’t have any plans to in the immediate future.

We had friends round on Saturday evening, we sat and ate outside. Our friends are the same ages as us, and have also only been going out when necessary, so we don’t feel that any of us are exposing the others to risk, and we‘re careful about maintaining social distance with each other when we do meet up.
 

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,250
I'm in FL, in one of the hardest hit counties. Yes I've had to get tested because I've been feeling like shit. Do I have it? I certainly hope not considering how careful I've been.

The reality is yesterday we saw 15K positives. thats a lot of backlog and I will say that at least the state is testing heavily. the numbers represent a LOT of this being in the state. Do I feel bitter about not going out? No. I feel bitter about the stupid MF'ers saying its not that bad? Hell yes! I live in a mixed neighborhood, one full of hospital personnel, police, and school teachers. All three professions needed to keep our civilization from teetering into chaos. The morgue has a few meat trucks on standby, but its not "that bad?"

With Covid its not just the initial, its the lingering issues that happen afterward. There's people that will have kidney issues and be on dialysis the rest of their lives. The.Rest.Of.Their.Lives. People who never had asthma now have it or have other lung ailments, the rest of their lives. A host of other ailments that this thing is causing.


They are now turning people away from a hospital 2 miles away from me because they're at capacity, they're running field hospital and more staff is becoming ill. this is not a big hospital but, think about what that means for this area. If I get sick, I could be screwed because I'm, no spring chicken!

And yes hospitals do have plans and they're implementing them, in the meantime, if they get overwhelmed, they will have to start making choices as to who gets care and who gets sent home to die. I said that before in a thread when that was happening in Italy, and I hoped like hell it wouldn't happen here but its on our door.

Schools in my county are supposed to open August 10. Not with the numbers we're getting, we wont.

I didn't sign up for this shit. I wear a mask, I make masks for others. I wish people would get their heads out of their asses and work together instead of making this a political thing. Masks are not political, and this virus dosen't give a shit how you vote.
 

kipari

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
2,161
I'm in FL, in one of the hardest hit counties. Yes I've had to get tested because I've been feeling like shit. Do I have it? I certainly hope not considering how careful I've been.

The reality is yesterday we saw 15K positives. thats a lot of backlog and I will say that at least the state is testing heavily. the numbers represent a LOT of this being in the state. Do I feel bitter about not going out? No. I feel bitter about the stupid MF'ers saying its not that bad? Hell yes! I live in a mixed neighborhood, one full of hospital personnel, police, and school teachers. All three professions needed to keep our civilization from teetering into chaos. The morgue has a few meat trucks on standby, but its not "that bad?"

With Covid its not just the initial, its the lingering issues that happen afterward. There's people that will have kidney issues and be on dialysis the rest of their lives. The.Rest.Of.Their.Lives. People who never had asthma now have it or have other lung ailments, the rest of their lives. A host of other ailments that this thing is causing.


They are now turning people away from a hospital 2 miles away from me because they're at capacity, they're running field hospital and more staff is becoming ill. this is not a big hospital but, think about what that means for this area. If I get sick, I could be screwed because I'm, no spring chicken!

And yes hospitals do have plans and they're implementing them, in the meantime, if they get overwhelmed, they will have to start making choices as to who gets care and who gets sent home to die. I said that before in a thread when that was happening in Italy, and I hoped like hell it wouldn't happen here but its on our door.

Schools in my county are supposed to open August 10. Not with the numbers we're getting, we wont.

I didn't sign up for this shit. I wear a mask, I make masks for others. I wish people would get their heads out of their asses and work together instead of making this a political thing. Masks are not political, and this virus dosen't give a shit how you vote.
This 10000000 times!!!

I'm sorry you're unwell, @Arcadian and hope you ll be better soon!!
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,885
@Arcadian, how frightening. I'm so sorry that you and everyone living in surging areas are going through this. The situation in Maine looks more promising each week even though many restrictions have been lifted. I would love for us to be able to SAFELY open schools in the Fall, but I don't think a full re-opening would be possible in my county.

Sending positive vibes your way!
 

nala

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
4,139
Question: am I the only one who finds the phrase "winning at life" reductive/simplistic (and off-putting)?
I don’t see it that way. I interpret it as a manifestation of the confusion we are all living in. I don’t want to speak for the OP, but I think this divisive virus pits people against each other: The essentials vs non, the elderly vs young, the at-risk vs low risk. I think the result is that people who feel deprived and are not cut out to quarantine are longing for their old life and have to wonder if they should take more risks to enjoy their life. Nothing wrong with that imo. We are all living a new normal and by expressing how we feel in the terms that we feel, we can all learn. What I do find off-putting is that many people seem to relish the fact that people who die of Covid as a result of going to a bar or a party—deserve that death.
 
Last edited:

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,250
@Arcadian, how frightening. I'm so sorry that you and everyone living in surging areas are going through this. The situation in Maine looks more promising each week even though many restrictions have been lifted. I would love for us to be able to SAFELY open schools in the Fall, but I don't think a full re-opening would be possible in my county.

Sending positive vibes your way!
Thank you.

And I wait, the county tells you 3 days but have heard from others its more like 10/14 days. Until then I won't know unless I end up in an ER or something before that, which I do not want to do, its pretty scary at most hospitals right now. In all, I hope its absolutely nothing to do with Rona. I'll take a plain jane flu right now! In meantime, heavily dosing NAC and vitamin C. I wanted to do an infusion this week but will not happen considering.
 

nala

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
4,139
@Arcadian , Sending you lots of get well dust and hope you get your test results quickly and that this is a normal flu bug. I’m thinking of you. Hugs, Callie



@nala , I don’t think most people would ever “relish” anyone dying of Covid regardless of how they caught it.
Have you read the comments under yahoo articles recently? The jokes about Darwin’s theory? The tones of indictment against anyone who ventures out?
 
Last edited:

Demon

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
1,031
Thank you.

And I wait, the county tells you 3 days but have heard from others its more like 10/14 days. Until then I won't know unless I end up in an ER or something before that, which I do not want to do, its pretty scary at most hospitals right now. In all, I hope its absolutely nothing to do with Rona. I'll take a plain jane flu right now! In meantime, heavily dosing NAC and vitamin C. I wanted to do an infusion this week but will not happen considering.
I have heard that the ingredient in pepcid, famotidine, helps lessen the illness. There was a study done, and I don't have that info (I'll look for it) but when it was given at 80mg 3 times a day, it helped. Also, if you take it regularly, you're supposed to get less sick. While I see if I can find the study, here are some quotes from a person in the health care industry that I was discussing it with:

"The way they found out about Pepcid is that poorer GERD patients in China took Pepcid and wealthier ones took a PPI. The poorer patients who got COVID did better than the wealthier ones, and the only major difference was Pepcid vs.Omeprazole.

So, yes, taking it everyday for GERD is something I would advocate over a PPI. It is effective for GERD and may provide some benefit if the patient contracts COVID. Plus, it is OTC and generic, so it is very reasonably priced."




And this:



"It hasn’t been peer reviewed yet, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

What interests me is the fact that in Cath Lab, if we have a patient with a history of anaphylaxis we always pre-treat them with Pepcid for just this reason, to quell cytokine release and inhibit mast cells. There is a lot of edema in COVID lungs on biopsy, but no eosinophils, which is strange because they are common in edema and allergy reactions, but not strange if you have a huge surge of histamine, which inhibits eosinophils.

Histamine surges can also wipe out taste and smell receptors.

It’s interesting, to say the least."


And of course I would check with your doctor as to whether the 80mg 3 times a day is safe.

I haven't found where he said 80 mg 3 times a day yet, but its a thread with over 3000 posts..

And....just another reason to keep visiting your dispensary lol

..
 
Last edited:
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    August Birthstone 2020: Peridot
    August Birthstone 2020: Peridot
    Fabulous 5 Carat Emerald Cut and More!
    Fabulous 5 Carat Emerald Cut and More!
    Stunning Engagement Ring Upgrade
    Stunning Engagement Ring Upgrade

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top