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Are "Hearts & Arrows" phoney "Hearts on Fire"?

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by investigator, Feb 11, 2001.

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  1. investigator
    Rough_Rock

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    by investigator » Feb 11, 2001
    I've been diamond shopping for quite some time and have found the "perfectly cut diamond", known to me as an exclusive "Hearts on Fire" diamond. It is overwhelmingly IDENTICAL to the "Hearts & Arrows" diamond. Both claim to be the so-called perfectly cut diamond. Which is the original and which is the imposter? I would recommend exercising some caution if considering purchasing "Hearts & Arrows" based on the outstanding reputation of "Hearts on Fire". Correct me if I'm mistaken!
     
    


    


  2. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Feb 11, 2001
    Edit-EightStar prices have been lowered and are now close to those of other brands in most sizes.
    That's a hard question to answer. It could be that much or it could be less. The dealers don't all charge the same markup, although their initial cost on the diamonds is more than for other stones. I believe some people have found higher prices for Hearts on Fire. Other brands are much less expensive, some are in the middle.Also, it depends I think, on what C's you are considering.EightStars are cut differently than other diamonds, and buyers do pay for the craftsmanship. They do not just put a rough diamond on a Sarin machine and let the machine tell them the best way to cut the diamond to save weight. The diamonds are not machine cut. The firescope will show errors that a hearts and arrows viewer will not.Many consumers can see a difference between EightStars and well-cut hearts and arrows diamonds but some can't. Actually, the difference becomes more noticable the more time you spend looking at them.
     
  3. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Feb 11, 2001
    Investigator, Cut Nut is just kidding [​IMG]
    Garry, you can add smile icons to your posts. Otherwise people might be confused [​IMG]
    Investigator, as Garry said round diamonds with hearts and arrows patterns were found in Japan first. Later many cutters in the world started cutting diamonds with H&A pattern.
    Several companies started promoting their brands like Hearts on Fire. There are other H&A branded diamonds: A Cut Above, Superb Cert, Aglaia and others. Usually these diamonds are cut within AGS0 proportions, with ideal symmetry and polish. Branded H&A diamonds have more consistent H&A pattern.
    You also can find non-branded H&A diamonds - they can be cheaper than branded.
    Usually H&A diamonds are more expensive than other "ideals". So if you are buying H&A diamond you have to check the quality of the H&A pattern ( see Grading The Hearts ).
    Despite that H&A diamonds cut within AGS zero proportions you still might want to check their proportions with the Cut Adviser.
    Hope it helps
    [​IMG]

    leonid

     
  4. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Feb 11, 2001
    Actually,The first diamond which all of the H&A companies have tried to copy is the EightStar which was cut to produce the correct firescope image. The owner of the firescope, Takanori Tamura of Tokyo, searched for a diamond that would meet the demands of the firescope and found very few tiny stones that had been cut that would produce the correct image.He had his cutter learn how to produce diamonds that would be EightStars. The imitators came in time.Actually, EightStar doesn't really consider itself a H&A diamond. Their criteria are stricter than that of most companies who simply look for a pattern. Each and every EightStar must exhibit the perfect image in the firescope.If you are interested, you can send an email to EightStar through their website www.eightstar.com and you can ask about their diamonds. Unlike most cutters, the president or vice president of the company will likely write you and answer your questions. They may even send you a copy of the EightStar story (you can read a shortened version on their site). It's an interesting read. [​IMG]
     
    


    


  5. StevL
    Brilliant_Rock
    Trade

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    by StevL » Feb 11, 2001
    Wow! Good post Lawmax, your not an average consumer!Yes Eighstar was the first, and is still considered the best in optical light return.There are many branded H&A diamonds, and they all have their sales tools, and marketing tools. The truth is that no one H&A brand produces anything that any other brand doesn't produce. One word of caution, they all produce best and better, so even within one brand there can be differences in the light return which can be viewed through a Firescope, and a Brilliance Scope. Please note that the Briliance Scope has a +/- 5% range, so make sure this test is run a couple of times would be my suggestion.The only diamond that gets consistant Firescope results *every time* is the Eightstar (which is not a H&A diamond). Yes it does have both of the images (H&A), but Eightstar is only concerned with the arrows and doesn't market the hearts. You should compare both together (H&As and Eightstars side by side) to make *your* best decision.Good luck, and happy hunting.------------------
     
  6. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Feb 11, 2001
    Hi investigator,
    You can go through the tutorial on this site diamond tutorial and try to find diamonds through the diamond search with proportions that do well in the cut adviser.
    (You need to find out the diamond's table and depth percentages and crown and pavilion angles. There aren't too many dealers who list this information on their sites, but they may help you if you call or write them)
    You can also try cut quality search to see how some diamonds with known crown and pavilion angles will do on the cut adviser. There are some brands that do consistently well and are not expensive.
    You can also contact a knowledgable brick and mortar dealer like Steve Livingston who posts here. www.demsjewelers.com. Steve carries branded and unbranded diamonds.
    Hope this gets you started,

    [​IMG]lawmax

     
  7. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Feb 11, 2001
    Investigator, perhaps you're aware that diamonds aren't the best investment. When buying a diamond you just follow your personal preferences in cut, color, clarity and weight. To make your mind you need to see many different diamonds and decide what set of qualities you want. Lawmax is right (as usual [​IMG]). You might want to see reliable dealer who cares different makes and brands like SteveL.
     
  8. StevL
    Brilliant_Rock
    Trade

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    by StevL » Feb 11, 2001
    Okay Lawmax,With these post your now offered a job, but you will have to relocate [​IMG]Very nice post, and as always, accurate information.I'll just watch a while.------------------
     
  9. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Feb 11, 2001
    In a nutshell, EightStar was first a Japanese company. The Japanese economy was booming and so was the demand for EightStar diamonds. Richard von Sternberg was asked to help the company find cutters here who could be trained in Japan to cut EightStars back in America to help increase supply for the Japanese market.After some time, it was decided that EightStars should be sold in America. Richard played a small part in helping with marketing, but after some time the owner of the company decided that he didn't want to manage a diamond factory day in and day out. He was a business man.After managing the business for awhile, Richard bought the American company. I can send you a copy of the EightStar Diamond Story if you like-I have two of them. Go to www.eightstar.com and read much of the story.
     
  10. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Feb 11, 2001
    I'm confused. I thought EightStar Diamonds is an American company. How then Japanise tools and name came to the US?
     
    


    


  11. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Feb 11, 2001
    voyeur, Steve?
     
  12. investigator
    Rough_Rock

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    by investigator » Feb 11, 2001
    Thanks all for the info. Is it worth the extra few thousand to invest in a H&A or "Hearts on Fire" and the like? How would I go about finding a diamond with similar cut, without paying for the marketing?
     
  13. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Feb 11, 2001
    The original diamond was found after a volcanic eruption, by a csingle celled critter, well before people.
    The first recognised H&A were more than a decade ago in Japan.
    The one you want is probably being cut by anyone right now, by who cares? But if you like marketing then go with the prettiest ad's.
    garry H
     
  14. drewg350
    Rough_Rock

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    by drewg350 » Feb 11, 2001
    I'm just curious, how much more on average does an Eighstar cost over a Branded H&A 000? Is it around 30%, 40%?
     
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