Are Hearts and Arrows independent of one another??

[Blueman33]

If I get a diamond that is mounted, can I assume that if the face displays arrows, that it has hearts as well? (which you can''t see when it''s mounted)

Or does one have to have the diamond loose to make sure it has BOTH hearts and arrows?

Thanks,
David

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

arrows do not guarantee hearts

 

[hoorray]

Do good crisp hearts imply arrows or are they completely independent?

 

[valeria101]

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On 9/13/2004 9:27:16 PM lop wrote:

Do good crisp hearts imply arrows or are they completely independent? ----------------

Not completely independent... just one pattern can be perfect while the other a bit shaky.

A set of neat arrows can be paired with rather unrecognizable harts. A good hart pattern may be paired with imperfect arrows, but not trully distorted ones. This is all I know.

The situation is exactly the other way around for the square H&As !

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re symmetry - it is often possible to detect a symmetry deviation in arrows that predict poor hearts.

But from a proportion view point - you can have a perfectly symmetrical stone with hearts and not arrows
And you can have perfect arrows and not hearts.

 

[kevinng]

I think it's more important to have nice arrows coupled with good proportion to ensure good light return (check with ideal-scope or similar tool). Hearts are less important since you cannot see it after the stone is mounted.

However, you would want to know if the diamond is really H&A because you won't want to pay the H&A premium if the diamond is not H&A.

 

[oldminer]

I like the marketing concept of H&A, but wonder if anyone can tell if a mounted diamonds with good arrows has or does not have good hearts? Can you see it, or do you need a tool to be sure? Once a diamond is set, there is very little that can be done to view the heartsd anyway, but does it really make a difference to begin with....

Let's hear the sales pitch. It would be informative.

 

[Blueman33]

David, is it possible to have a really brilliant diamond (round) that is a great cut that doesn't exhibit arrows?

 

[Rhino]

The Hearts are evidence of the extreme level of precision to which the diamond has been cut, particularly on the pavilion. If lower girdles (16 facets on the pavilion, between the pavilion mains) deviate too much, one from another, the size of the hearts and/or clefts in the hearts will vary and not show consistency. Viewing the pavilion and the consistency of it's pattern demonstrates the precision to which the diamond has been cut (along with viewing the arrows). That is why it is important for us to view and photograph this phenomena.




Having said that however I would also add that the hearts or bottom down view of the stone is the least important. Ie. you can have a diamond cut with very long lower girdles (length greater than 80%, or lg depth greater than 82-83%) which would cause a fault in the hearts (causing a cleft) however it could *improve* the face up appearance of the diamond making it more scintillating.




We are about to introduce two new next generation rounds from companies who are incorporating optical technologies in their cutting. One has no hearts at all and the other does not have hearts like we are traditionally used to seeing them (much smaller). Their face up appearance however ... nothing like ya'll have ever seen. Their brilliance/fire/scintillation is among the finest I've yet to witness in a round brilliant cut. The primary concern of these 2 cutting edge cutting facilities is not face down appearance but face up appearance although the pavilions show excellent optical symmetry, just not like what we're used to seeing but who cares as it is the face up position that counts most. My .02c

 

[Rhino]

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On 9/14/2004 11:46:17 AM Blueman33 wrote:





David, is it possible to have a really brilliant diamond (round) that is a great cut that doesn't exhibit arrows?
----------------

If I may...

The presence or phenomena of the arrows indicates that the pavilion mains (largest facets on the pavilion) are reflecting light back up into the face of the observer in direct light conditions (necessary for strong fire), and provide points of contrast in diffuse light conditions.

In direct lights this provides for the most fiery of diamonds (when coupled with other facets directing light at those high angles also provides for superior scintillation) and in diffuse light provides for some of the most brilliant diamonds due to the high contrast

All diamonds to some degree are *brilliant*, however those diamonds that are directing alot of light at those high angles (ie. in the viewers face) will be the most brilliant.

 

[oldminer]

Not in a standard cut round brilliant. Maybe someone has a weirdly faceted, but brilliant round, but it would then have no arrows.....Arrows occur because of the way the facets are shaped. A standard cut has standard arrows by nature, more or less.

 

[kevinng]

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On 9/14/2004 12:24:25 PM Rhino wrote:

If I may...

The presence or phenomena of the arrows indicates that the pavilion mains (largest facets on the pavilion) are reflecting light back up into the face of the observer in direct light conditions (necessary for strong fire), and provide points of contrast in diffuse light conditions.

In direct lights this provides for the most fiery of diamonds (when coupled with other facets directing light at those high angles also provides for superior scintillation) and in diffuse light provides for some of the most brilliant diamonds due to the high contrast

All diamonds to some degree are *brilliant*, however those diamonds that are directing alot of light at those high angles (ie. in the viewers face) will be the most brilliant.
----------------

I like to dig through GOG's educational stones... and this one looks interesting:

AGS 10 Performer

I think that goes to show that although it is true that arrows indicate that the pavilion mains are reflecting light back up into the face of the observer in direct light conditions (necessary for strong fire), and provide points of contrast in diffuse light conditions... it does not really take nicely formed arrows to do the job. Weird looking arrow-like reflections do the job too... and they are a lot cheaper. I think the educational stone above should look great by anyone's standards.

I do like H&As very much because of the nice looking arrows, which are very pleasing to me... and a lot of people seem to think so to... H&As seem to produce a good degree of fire and scintillation, which is why it commands a premium. Personally, I will only buy a diamond with nice arrows. But for people looking for a bargain, perhaps it makes sense for them to work harder to find a performing non-H&A diamond?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Kevin and all, diamonds with the proportions of that educational stone will become a main stream stone in the future after GIA and AGS release their new grading systems (I doubt AGS will go below 30 degrees crown though).

At present we do not see too many stones like that with good symmetry - but that will change when cutters are rewarded for making them.

AND (drum roll) you can have H&A's around those proportions too!

 

[kevinng]

I will still choose a H&A over a non-H&A. The premium of a H&A is around 10% (give and take)?

H&As ensures 2 things:
1. Super symmetry
2. The diamond's pavilion mains are doing their job as they should.

There may be differing opinions, but I think if you are looking for an ideal diamond, the extra 10% for these 2 qualities are well worth the money.

While the AGS10 diamond shows that it is possible to find a nice diamond that is non-H&A and non AGS Triple Ideal for cut, I think we have to go through quite a few, and stare at so many diamonds through the ideal-scope untill we go blind... before we can find one. Even then... it does not have that nice symmetrical look to it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am not sure you are aware Kevin that a stone like this will likely be an AGS 0 this time next year, and is currently an AGS 6 and is definitely going to be a H&A's Kevin.
At present this would cost you about 10% or more less than a non AGS 0 and maybe 20% less than an AGS 0 H&A.

This stone has a 3-4% better spread than the narrow and somewhat silly current standard. Why would you not buy it now?

 

[kevinng]

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On 9/16/2004 12:28:44 AM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:


This stone has a 3-4% better spread than the narrow and somewhat silly current standard. Why would you not buy it now?

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Well, like you said earlier Garry... as soon as AGS implements their new standards, cutters will find it worthwhile to cut their diamonds to this proportion while ensuring a high level of symmetry necessary for H&A (or at least nice arrows). I think previously, the cutters who are capable of cutting nice H&As were still trying to achieve the current AGS Triple Ideal standards because of the premium it commands. So, it would not be easy to find such a diamond currently... especially in Singapore, where most shops only sell H&As cut to the current AGS Triple Ideal standards.

I do agree with you that if anyone can find a diamond that is an AGS6 now and shows very nice H&A patterns, it would be a very good buy, especially when the ideal-scope image is also rich and red.

But if I were a vendor and I know that such a stone would be an AGS Ideal next year... I think I'd keep it in the safe for a while?

 

[kevinng]

I put the specs in the HCA and it returns a 1.4. It's a BIC.