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Are dissenting opinions allowed here?

Discussion in 'Laboratory-Grown Diamonds /Man-Made Diamonds (MMD)' started by kenny, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. kenny
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    by kenny » Sep 11, 2010
    I just paid over $16,000 for a 0.12 ct. GIA Fancy Deep Blue (no modifier).
    Why?
    Becuase it's real. (and it's purdy)
    It came out of the earth with this color.
    That means something.
    That means a lot, well, to me anyway.

    For that price I could have bought a larger synthetic blue diamond.
    Why didn't I?
    Well, because it is not natural.

    If I'm going to buy something man made, why not just buy glass?
    Glass is much cheaper than a synthetic blue diamond.
    Both are fake.

    Imagine proposing with a "diamond" and she finds out you cheaped out and bought a fake! :((
    What does that say about you and how you feel about her? :knockout:
    I'd rather it be small than be fake.

    I do not think the marketing people of synthetics can persuade people like me.
    Sorry.

    GIA Fancy Deep Blue.png

    Picture 3.png
     
  2. Brown.Eyed.Girl
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    by Brown.Eyed.Girl » Sep 11, 2010
    Very cool - great color. But the thread title leaves me a bit confused. Dissenting opinions?

    In any case, it's your money and the stone makes you happy and you can afford it - why should I object? It's super pretty. :)
     
  3. kelpie
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    by kelpie » Sep 11, 2010
    The color is far superior to any irradiate or lab grown diamond. I thought you got the green OEC instead, did you end up with both? :love:
    I'm in the camp with you, why would I ever want to wear anything fake or enhanced out the wazoo? This applies to gems, bags, and boobies.
     
  4. kenny
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    by kenny » Sep 12, 2010
    Well coming onto a forum for man-made diamonds with a couple natural colored diamonds IS kind of dissenting.
    No?
    Certainly, to each his/her own.
    I'm certainly not arguing everyone should buy natural.
    Actually I'm probably offering an extreme example of why many people don't buy naturally-colored diamonds.
    You get very little carat weight for the money.

    Yes I bought both the blue and the natural green diamond in my avatar.
    It is 0.26 ct VS2 Fancy Intense Green, no modifiers also per GIA, $35K.
    I mention the prices not to be tacky or brag, but rather because it is a legit example that there are some of us who prefer natural colors even if a decent budget can only get a couple tiny ones.

    AFAIC, there is just something magical about a diamond coming out of the earth with these clean saturated rare colors.

    FWIW, 2 threads about them:
    Before the purchase: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/green-or-blue-t147273.html
    After the purchase: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/2-new-fancy-colored-diamonds-blue-green-t148569.html

    Here it is on my fingers where no light can get into the pavilion.

    Picture 7.png

    Picture 8.png
     
  5. Brown.Eyed.Girl
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    by Brown.Eyed.Girl » Sep 12, 2010
    Oops sorry Kenny. I click on topics from the Unread Replies page so I never see what subforum it's posted it. My apologies!
     
  6. ForteKitty
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    by ForteKitty » Sep 12, 2010
    i guess i would buy a synthetic blue diamond. (assuming it's cheap tho, i have no idea how much they run) But that's only because i would probably never be able to afford a 3 ct vivid blue cushion. :cheeky:

    if it's for a fun ring and it's really pretty, why not? glass, cz, and other simulants dont have the same dispersion as a lab diamond and wouldn't perform the same, so you can't compare it visually to a lab diamond.

    do lab diamonds even come that large?
     
  7. EEFranklin
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    by EEFranklin » Sep 13, 2010
    Kenny, congratulations on your purchase. Both of those are very beautiful diamonds.

    I'll be the first to say that synthetic diamonds aren't for everyone, and to quote you: 'to each his/her own'. Yes, the colored synthetic diamonds are more affordable than their mined counterparts, but they are also grown in a machine in a few days. That aspect appeals to some people (technology, environmental and labor issues), but doesn't to others (natural, earth-made).

    My only point of contention is when you say synthetic diamonds are fake. CZ, moissanite, crystal, glass, etc. are 'fake diamonds' (simulants). Synthetic diamonds (lab-grown, man-made, cultured, etc.) are not natural, but they are real diamonds.

    @kelpie - the color in blue lab grown and mined diamonds both come from boron, so look the same. Irradiated blue diamonds look very different.

    @ForteKitty - Lab created blue diamonds can be made up to about 1.5ct.
     
  8. missydebby
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    by missydebby » Sep 13, 2010
    Kens, you could buy me a diamond anytime... just sayin'

    What an amazing colection. :love: :love: :love:
     
  9. kenny
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    by kenny » Sep 13, 2010
    Thanks guys.
    Yes Eric, I should not have used the term "fake".
    I realized it after my 45-minute edit window had expired. :((

    Besides being inaccurate it is also critical, which is not how I feel.
    I respect everyone's choices.
    My apologies.
     
  10. EEFranklin
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    by EEFranklin » Sep 13, 2010
    Kenny, no worries =) Once you decide what to set them in, I'd love to see 'after' pictures too.

    All the best,
    Eric
     
  11. elle_chris
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    by elle_chris » Sep 25, 2010
    If I were a collector, and wanted to purchase a blue just for my collection then yes, I'd get natural.

    But If I wanted it for a specific piece of jewelry, I'd have no problem getting a man made. First, it is a real diamond. It's not "glass", or a CZ. Only difference is it comes out of a lab rather than the earth. For me, that's not an issue.

    But like you said, to each their own.
     
  12. Lee Little
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    by Lee Little » Sep 25, 2010
    Very impressive stones, I also love natural and untreated, thanks for sharing. Because of the color those are the nicest Diamonds I have ever seen outside a museum. Best regards, Lee
     
  13. periwinklegirl
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    by periwinklegirl » Oct 13, 2010
    I'm not with you (and yes, I'll admit my bias). Sure, it comes out of the ground, but so do several trillion tons of rocks and soil to get to it (not to mention the human cost in labour and separated families). And well, I'm a girl, and we generally like stones bigger than 0.12 carats. For me personally, there's a limit to the amount of money I'm comfortable walking around with on my hand. However, I may be biased, because I'm in love with my beautiful intense blue HPHT, and of course, with my partner who shares my values.
     
  14. ChunkyCushionLover
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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Oct 13, 2010
     
  15. periwinklegirl
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    by periwinklegirl » Oct 13, 2010
    Chunky Cushion Lover,
    I got a beautiful lab grown ceylon sapphire from SylvaRocks http://www.sylvarocks.net/.. I highly recommend them. Excellent customer service and I really like the quality of the ring. I get compliments on it all the time, and my sister loved it so much I got her one too, although she preferred a deeper royal blue colour.
     
  16. EEFranklin
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    by EEFranklin » Oct 13, 2010
    We only make diamonds so I won't have any corundum for you. Chatham may have some close to ceylon though.

    Created and mined blues can have the same color because the color is made the exact same way (trapping boron in the carbon lattice). The amount of boron in the diamond and the diamond's size determine the saturation of blue color. We can't control the exact shade, but have a reasonable idea what color will come out, within a shade or two. Part of the color is also determined through cutting. For example, a radiant tends to concentrate color more than an emerald, so if you could cut the same rough into those two different shapes, the radiant would look a little darker. Kenny's is a 'fancy deep blue' color and we have grown many fancy deep blues over one carat. If you had a lab-grown fancy deep blue and a mined fancy deep blue, they would match very well.
     
  17. ChunkyCushionLover
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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Oct 20, 2010
    When I said descriminating customer, I was referring to Hue, Saturation and Secondary Mask. I believe the GIA color grades are quite broad and so the same color grade correlating with the exact same color seems like an oversimplification.

    As for cutting will you sell rough that can be cut elsewhere or take custom orders for particular cutting outline shapes in a particular shade?
     
  18. EEFranklin
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    by EEFranklin » Oct 21, 2010
    Indeed, that is an oversimplification and GIA can be quite broad in the visual color versus graded color. From my understanding, GIA sets the color based on the single darkest point in a fancy colored diamond (since mined fancy colors are more valuable the more saturated they are), rather than the overall average color. We sent three obviously different colored blues (even to an untrained eye) to GIA at the same time and they graded them all the same color. We have found EGL to be much more consistent in their colored grading than GIA, which is one of the reasons why we default to EGL reports on our diamonds.

    The color in every diamond is different and there is certainly some subjectivity and variance when it is categorized into a worded name (e.g. fancy deep blue), but two EGL deep blues will still be very close in color to each other. 'Fancy blue' is a wide color range, but most of the others are pretty narrow. We have a >1ct deep blue emerald, and while the tone and saturation may not perfectly match Kenny's diamond (for example), it would be close enough that you could wear them both at the same time and they wouldn't look mismatched. If you wanted two perfectly matched diamonds they need to be matched in person, not just from their reports.
    The process of making a predetermined size, shape, color and clarity from a rough isn't as easy as it may seem, with specific color being the most difficult of the four to accurately predict. We don't sell rough but can take special requests as long as you have a reasonable range of results you will accept. For example, if you wanted a rectangular cushion modified brilliant on the saturated side of blue (e.g. intense to deep) around 3/4ct and SI1+ clarity, that is a request we could fulfill. If you want a 6.92x5.69x3.84mm fancy intense blue VS1+ emerald cut, it will be a long wait until we have a rough diamond we were certain could cut into exactly that diamond. We actually have someone waiting for over two years for that last request. We check every new batch of rough for it, but it is at the upper size limit of what we can grow and the larger sizes tend to be more saturated colors and lower clarities. We cut one that was the right size but it turned out darker and lower clarity than was requested, so we have to make another once a better candidate becomes available.

    We have done patented cuts before (like http://www.iceflower.be/), but would have to make arrangements with whoever the cut belongs to (like Karl K for Octavia).

    The issue with selling/pre-selling rough is that all of the risk would fall on you as the consumer, without having control of the result (unless you polish it yourself). If we cut a standard shape outside of your criteria (like that deep blue emerald), we can just put it in our inventory and sell it to someone else. If you owned the rough or requested a rough be made into a patented cut, you would have to accept the output regardless of how it came out. Earlier this year we had a 0.76ct blue with a chip on the girdle. We sent it to a reputable cutter in the States for repolishing (we normally cut in Antwerp) and they returned it as a 0.17ct! That is an extreme example, but as a consumer, I wouldn't want that to happen to me.

    A special order isn't for someone who has all of their criteria exactly picked out and won't be happy if it doesn't exactly match, but rather for someone who wants something we don't have in-stock (e.g. rectangular cushion) and would be happy with some reasonable variances in the output.

    If there is something specific you want made, contact us and we can give you a better idea how feasible it would be.
     
  19. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Oct 24, 2010
    I would like to congratulate you all for having an open discussion with different points of view and a good exchange of information.

    :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl:
     
  20. agatha.nl
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    by agatha.nl » Nov 16, 2010
    i'm with you on this: no created stuff fot me either
     
  21. LD
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    by LD » Dec 20, 2010
    Considering the amount of natural coloured diamonds I own, you may find it odd when I say that I have no problem with lab created diamonds or HPHT treated diamonds - although I don't like synthetics. Of course, I would prefer natural and untreated but without divorcing my current husband and trading up to a millionaire, it's unlikely I'll be able to afford them - in a size I would want to wear! So, in addition to my natural/untreated coloured diamonds I also own a number of HPHT and irradiated diamonds. The one that I would never do without is my red/pink irradiated diamond. To own a natural/untreated diamond of this colour, in this size, straight out of the earth is well out of my means! So, for me, this is a very special diamond and it's still a natural diamond but has just been bombarded with a bit of irradiation!

    By the way, I've been told that this colour is actually quite difficult to achieve without showing the normal brown tones. Of course I bought this about 3 or 4 years ago so methods/techniques may well have changed and this may now be as common as muck! :bigsmile:

    Diamond Red 4 remake trima.jpg
     
  22. coffeetown
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    by coffeetown » Jan 3, 2011
    Some people (like my girlfriend) have a problem with diamonds precisely because they are natural and the diamond trade has a lot of environmental and political damage linked to it. In fact my girlfriend (not me) was insisting on man made diamonds for this very specific reason, I had to talk her out of it... but it's a very important issue to her.

    Just because it's made in a lab does not mean it's not real and it does not mean that it's not just as good... it may not be in your eyes, but some people see it another way. A real heart is also natural and "natural" but heart valves have also been created in labs and perfected by science.
     
  23. Haven
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    by Haven » Apr 24, 2011
    Your bolded statement contradicts the statement immediately preceding it. Our personal definitions of "good" vary, and some include lab created diamonds in that definition, while others don't. It's natural and okay to have dissenting opinions, and it's even better to recognize that your opinion isn't going to be shared by everyone.

    As for me, I have no problem with created diamonds, but I also have no desire to own one. I prefer natural diamonds, so that is what I buy.
     
  24. Black Jade
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    by Black Jade » Apr 25, 2011
    My fear with the lab-created diamonds is that I would pay a lot of money for one and the value would sink, like it did with the lab-created sapphires, rubies and emeralds. When those were new they sold for big bucks. YOu see the sapphires in very high end jewelry from the twenties. But nowadays, you see 'lab-created' mostly in walmart type jewelry. These also are 'real' sapphires and emeralds, exactly the same chemically,just not mined in the earth. How do we know the same won't happen to lab-created diamonds? tney have been around several years now and it doesn't seem likely that what happend with pearls vs. cultured pearls is going to happen (where the cultured pearls killed the genuine pearl market)--how do we know that this other scenario won't be the case?
     
  25. Haven
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    by Haven » Apr 26, 2011
    BlackJade--Thank you for that information, I had no idea about the price history of lab-created sapphires and other gems. It does make one wonder if the value of lab-created diamonds will drop over time if, perhaps, the market turns against them. Very interesting!
     
  26. SLCDJ
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    by SLCDJ » Apr 28, 2011
    All considerations being held the same, it would appear that synthetic diamond should, and indeed probably would, follow the same commercial path as other precious gems. However the processes are vastly different and there are many, many more factors and considerations that would need to be respected in order to make a reasonable speculation regarding the pricing and value mechanisms of MMDs. The same speculations could lead one to assume that the bottom should and could fall out of the natural variety, on par with or even before the current MMD situation. There are many enterprises and people interested in assuring that this doesn't happen, including you and I, presumably. If protecting the perceived value for diamonds is in one's best interest, perhaps the surest way to assure that diamond value, is to keep driving the consumption of diamonds and diamond jewelry. MMD's only add to this effort and in no way detract from the existing diamond market that we all enjoy. At the end of the day we are all paying moderately high prices for a very beautiful, yet very common element.
     
  27. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » Apr 28, 2011
    Other than inflation, synthetic emeralds haven’t actually changed all that much in price since they were first introduced in the late 30’s. That’s actually an example for the other side. Synthetic corundum (which is both ruby and sapphire) first hit the market in the 1880’s and they were the first ‘real’ synthetic to become available. Manmade gems weren’t a category of their own and they cost about the same as the real ones. Indeed, the fact that they weren’t just some dumb rock but that someone MADE them was often seen as a feature, not a problem. Within a few decades there were bunches of competitors in the manufacturing business and they became their own product category. Prices dropped drastically but, as with emeralds, this type of ruby hasn’t really changed much in the last several generations. There aren’t actually very many products around where you can say that. TVs? Cars? Clothing? Food? Other techniques have been developed, some more expensive and some not, and there continues to be a thriving market for synthetics.

    Interestingly, this also doesn’t seem to have damaged the market for natural ruby. You can buy a fantastic synthetic for 1/20 of the price of a comparable natural stone that is spectacularly difficult for even an expert to distinguish, and both markets seem to be doing just fine. The exception to the rule seems to be synthetic amethyst. The synthetics are stunningly good and the test to separate from the naturals is so expensive that it's routinely more than the cost of the stone. Few customers care that much. The result is that the cost of fine natural amethyst and fine synthetics is about the same and is driven by the cost of manufacturing rather than the usual market forces for gemstones.

    None of these things make for a particularly good financial investments for consumers and they never have, but I think it’s incorrect to worry that diamonds are in for a technological breakthrough that will plummet the price and you will regret your purchase for that reason. They might, but a significant majority of the cost of synthetic diamonds is in the cutting, documenting and distribution as well as the assembly into jewelry. I don’t see the wages of cutters or setters going down any time soon, nor do I see the rents at jewelry stores or GIA's fees dropping.
     
  28. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » Apr 28, 2011
    Incidentally, the demise of the natural pearl market had to do with a lot more than just the introduction of cultured counterparts. Changing fashions and polution in the pearl producing waters that killed off many of the important oyster beds were at least as important if ot more so. In the end, the effect was a massive shift in the marketplace to be sure but different circumstances would have probably had a very different outcome.
     
  29. SLCDJ
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    by SLCDJ » May 3, 2011
    By the way DenverAppraiser, have you done any appraisals on MMD's? I am curious to know how one derives an appraised value on them. This may not be the appropriate forum for such a discussion, so please forgive my ignorance, perhaps I should start a new thread.
     
  30. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » May 4, 2011
    Yes, I've examined and appraised quite a few.

    The most common appraisal is done for insurance replacement purposes and the question at hand is what it would be reasonably expected to cost to replace the subject property with another of like kind and quality at retail and in the most appropriate marketplace in the case of a loss. That definition alone probably answered your question. Indeed a fair number of appraisal type questions can be answered by simply looking at the definition of value being used for the assignment. For that type of assignment it's a matter of looking to see what similar items cost, at retail, today, and then writing a report about it. That's the same way appraisers generally arrive at a value conclulsion for natural diamonds by the way (assuming insurance documentation is the purpose of the assignment). In terms of documentation it's also just about the same. Describe, photograph, scan, and document the item and it's pedigree so it can be replaced if required. MMD's aren't all that hard to shop, the list of potential suppliers if fairly short and they're all nicely transparent in their pricing structures. Occasionally mountings can complicate things but, for example, how much a 0.80ct dNea fancy light blue SI round would be expected to cost is something you could look up in under a minute with darned good accuracy. Easy peasy.

    Wanna know a tricky appraisal problem on MMD's? How about 'memorial' gems? These are stones that have been manufactured using carbon atoms supposedly extracted from Grandma, Fido or Beethoven. Replace THAT Mr. Insurance adjuster. :mrgreen:
     

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