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Appraisals

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by luvrocs, Dec 11, 2000.

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  1. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    I have done lots of research but I am still confused about the appraisal process. I've read that some dealers will suggest an appraiser (then they call them on the phone so that they get a good rating). That being said what is the difference of having a stone sent directly to www.diamondclearinghouse.com by the actual jeweler. How can I be assured that the appraiser and the jeweler don't have some secret agreement worked out? And I don't understand - after I get the appaisal and I have the stone mailed back and then I go and get it set how can I be sure then after the stone is set that it hasn't been switched. And who will check my stone after it has been set in the ring. Please explain.
     
    


    


  2. oldminer
    Ideal_Rock
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    by oldminer » Dec 11, 2000
    An Ogi Megascope is the competitor to the Sarin Diamension. Both tools are manufactured in Israel and do very very similar measurements of diamonds. Each one has its slight edge on the other in different areas but they are very similar. Both are rather $$$$$. (And well worth it, if the job is to be done correctly and if you love hi-tech "toys")Dave Atlas------------------
    David Atlas
    Accredited Gem Appraisers
     
  3. oldminer
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    by oldminer » Dec 11, 2000
    We have a Sarin Diamension and an Ogi Megascope in our offices for the electronic measurement of diamonds. Both of these are considered the present "state of the art" in defining the distinct measurements of a given stone. We use diamond masters for color grading that the GIA has previously graded. Of course, we use binocular magnification for the examination of clarity.Our appraisals and diamond reports digitally map the clarity inclusions and surface blemishes. Items of jewelry are photographed digitally. By using these modern methods we retain a perfect record of what we have examined and you also get complete and identical copies and full documentation.We make every effort to give our clientele the most complete sort of expertise that is presently possible and we do not charge two arms and two legs for it... The cost can easily be estimated, in advance and information on what we charge is on the www.gemappraisers.com website, too.
    ------------------
    David Atlas
    Accredited Gem Appraisers
     
  4. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Hi oldminer,I apologize for not bringing your services to luvroc's attention. What does the megascope look like? Is it like a Sarin or is it more like a "scope"? Do the results from the two machines correlate well?Thanks,
    lawmax
     
    


    


  5. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Dec 11, 2000
    Oldminer, what is the Ogi Megascope?
     
  6. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Hi luvrocks,You might like to take a drive to Philly (about 2 1/2 hours) to see Dave. Take the stone with you during a return policy period so Dave can explain his appraisal to you in person. [​IMG]lawmax
     
  7. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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  8. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    Lawmax, Where is Bill's site?
    Well, I'm still confused..I've read not to use independent appraisers that a jeweler personally recommends. Meanwhile, some of these jewelers have special agreements and they agree to mail out the stone directly to an appraiser. Doesn't this defeat the purpose (for the buyer) of an independent appraiser if the jeweler and appraiser have a mutual prior relationship.
    I'll tell you what I am looking for. I would like to use someone who has all the latest equipment (same as diamondclearinghouse)and who doesn't know the jeweler. Now, how can I do this unless I buy the stone and then take it to get appraised. Will I find a jeweler who has no problem sending the stone to the appraiser of my choice.
    If I sound extra paranoid it because of all the scam stuff I've reading.
     
  9. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    Leonid, I do understand and my fears are now becoming subsided. I tried the link for gemappraiser.com and I get a weird page that says the name is for sale?Thanks for all your help!-luvrocs
     
  10. oldminer
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    by oldminer » Dec 11, 2000
    A Megascope looks a lot like a smaller version Sarin device. They both use internal cameras and lenses to compare the measurements of the diamond to known measurements of the rotating table the the stone rests on during the measurement program.Once calibrated, these devices measure in a very similar manner with similar accuracy. Neither is dead perfect, but this is not rocket science either. To get a higher degree of accuracy would require a more expensive series of internal components further limiting their already limited distribution. There is no reason for much more accuracy right now. In a relatively short time far more accurate devices will be available that will use measurement combined with other aspects in their program to identify stones that have been previously examined. Some of these will replace the need to laser inscribe for identification purposes.------------------
    David Atlas
    Accredited Gem Appraisers
     
    


    


  11. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Dec 11, 2000
    Luvrock, just for the record. Oldminer (Dave Atlas) Director of the very well known (even in Canada [​IMG]) independend gradig lab, Accredited Gem Laboratory, which services we are very happy to recommend.
     
  12. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    Yes and no. So basically, if a person doesn't get the stoned gemprinted or laser inscribed then it would hard to tell what the stone is once it is set. I understand that you can watch it being set but I don't think think is foolproof. For example if you had a stone that had a tiny inclusion on the table and it purposely got covered with a prong then there is no real after check with a loupe. So it seems the only guarantee is to have it gemprint (and then you have to use a jeweler who has a gemprint), or you have it laser inscribed on the girdle (at least this way I can check myself - i am assuming that one can fully see this without any part of the ring covering this?). Were can I get the laser inscription done? Does goldoldgold sent it out to a place like diamondclearinghouse? and how much does it cost. It's this is the best way to go. yes?
     
  13. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Amazing. Will the new technology be similar to Gemprint?
    Are you snowed in? I saw that John Street shut the city down. I was there a few years ago when we got about 30 inches at once (am I remembering that correctly-sounds like a lot?). I was amazed when I couldn't open my front door!I don't miss it! [​IMG]
     
  14. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    thank you
     
  15. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Dec 11, 2000
    Luvrock, Bill's site is www.diamondclearinghouse.com .Oldminer's AGA website is www.gemappraiser.com but it is mainly devoted to the AGA cut grading system.I understand your confusion about the word "independent". Let me try to explain. Truly independent appraiser is not paid by the dealer and doesn't sell anything himself. The consumer pays him for his professional service and his reputation depends on it.Dealers will recommend such an expert because they know he won't turn down the sale in order to make a sale himself.There are not many truly independent appraisers out there. Unfortunately, most of the appraisers sell diamonds themselves.Dave and Bill are top-notch experts, well known and respected in the industry so you cannot make a mistake with them. For example, Mr. Atlas and two other members of his staff were awarded the title of Master Gemologist Appraiser from the Accredited Gemologists Association.
     
    


    


  16. oldminer
    Ideal_Rock
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    by oldminer » Dec 11, 2000
    We do this kind of independent appraisal work and can do it for you in a way that might safeguard you and eliminate your justified concerns.Have any diamond you might wish to buy sent directly to us for confirmation of the grading and/or evaluation. Upon your payment to the source, we will either send the stone to you or deliver it to you in poerson at our offices located in Philadelphia, PA. You could then go anywhere you please, but especially locally, in our diamond district, to get the stone mounted and we would be willing to re-inspect the stone to be sure it is the right one and properly set at no further cost to you.By selecting a diamond with a small, but readily locatable inclusion, would be an easy cure for the identity problem if you have decent eyesite, are willing to examine the stone under magnification, and have a normal memory span. Truthfully, few diamond guys switch stones, but you can be reasonably protected in normal circumstances by using good sense, knowledge, along with some outside expertise.We agree that an "independent appraiser" ought not be the choice of the seller, but rather your choice as the buyer.------------------
    David Atlas
    Accredited Gem Appraisers
     
  17. luvrocs
    Rough_Rock

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    by luvrocs » Dec 11, 2000
    Oldminer, Do you have a website where I can view what tools you use to do appraisals? I personally would like the stone to be laser inscribed (and a gemprint)and I would want use a jeweler near me to place the stone.Thanks
     
  18. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Hi,If the dealer sends the stone to an independent appraiser, he will be sure the stone matches the cert along with everything else he does. Then, if you want to keep the stone, you can pay the dealer (if you haven't already) and the appraiser will send the stone directly to you. You can take it to a jeweler who will set it while you watch. You will also have a plot of any inclusions in the stone. You can have the jeweler show them to you before and after setting. Bill also offers gemprint (you can read about it on his site) with which you can always be assured that the stone you get back is yours. The problem is that your jeweler will also have to have a gemprint machine. Also, many stones these days are laser engraved with a cert number/logo on the girdle which you can see with a loupe.Bill Lieberum works for the customer and is paid by the customer, not by the dealer. He does recommend avoiding a bad stone when necessary. He has rejected stones from dealers he knows.
    Does this help?lawmax
     
  19. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Dec 11, 2000
    Luvrocs,I think you can find the list of the dealers who agree to send the diamond to Bill Lieberum for inspection befor you pay for it. Jonathan will send a stone to Bill too. You might want to cantact Bill and inquire about cost of his service.As for inclusions, well, you can select the stone that has inclusions visible from the top and will remain visible after setting. Bezel or prongs never cover the table.
     
  20. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Jan 1, 2001
    Dave what you are refferring to is similar to the GIA's Horizon program? The way they pick up stones that have been graded before so they dont do them again a nd get a different result? Jim Shigley told me in 1994 they began doing that, and it helped pick up resubmitted GE treated diamonds with the laser inscription polished off.I use the Diascan 1200 Sarin model - which sells for $13,550. Your Diamension has a list price of $18,600 - this is very costly for you to own 2 such devices? Most people use the base model Brilliant-eye that sells for $5,885.
    In what way are there differences betwwen Ogi and Sarin devices? And what is the price differences of your 2 models please Dave.To consumers reading this - you get the picture this is an expensive business to be in - and many appraisers just own a sign. Anyone can call themselves an appraiser in most countries, there is little or no legislation to protect, and very little effective and on going training. Not to mention much devisive cross organisational fighting.
    Garry
     
  21. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Jan 1, 2001
    Sounds intriguing-now you've got my curiosity piqued! [​IMG] lawmax
     
  22. oldminer
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    by oldminer » Jan 1, 2001
    The major stone Sarin Diamension I have owned for about 4 years cost us $22,000. The Ogi Megascope which does stones only up to about 12mm recently cost us $8,500.
    They are fast, efficient and far more accurate than we can be manually. With so many important financial decisions riding on identity and cut quality, we felt we needed to own the best possible equipment.Every time we place a diamond on one of our measuring devices our previously graded diamonds are searched for identical measurements, shapes and weights. We use this program to see if stones are being re-submitted, just like the GIA does. I think labs have to protect themselves much like everyone else needs to do. There are a lot of tricky dealers and every week we see something new in how the "game" is being played.------------------
    David Atlas
    Accredited Gem Appraisers
     
  23. BrianHP
    Rough_Rock

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    by BrianHP » Jan 4, 2001
    I really think you are correct, there are alot of honest stores but what sticks in my mind is the 60 minutes or 20/20 show that air several years back.The show took a rather expensive diamond to several stores (In NY?)for cleaning and found that it was actually switched when returned from one store but really could not prove it.I know this was intended to made good ratings and is not the norm but I would not want to be the one that it happened to.Brian
     
  24. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Jan 4, 2001
    I think that story was the same type as published Dec 15 in the Wall Street Jornal about purchasing diamonds online: "Web Offers Deals on Diamonds, But Are the Rocks Any Good?".I don't think it was objective enough. Media needs bad news.
     
  25. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Jan 4, 2001
    Just one thing hereHow many times can a jeweler switch a stone before he gets caught? 1-2 times within 5 years - or the next appraisal.
    How many times can a jeweler get caght and stay in business? 1 time and he is gone!
    What does a jeweler stand to loose if he gets caught switching stones? - his staffs jobs, his livelyhood and profession - liquidating his stock to sharks for 20% of its value etc etc
    If you want to be sure your stone wont be switched go to the biggest best jeweller in town who has the most to loose, and pay the price and enjoy the service.
    garry
     
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