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Appraisal woes

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timmy!

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Time for more advice guys.

First off the proposal went well. We''ve been riding high as a kite. That is of course until K went for the appraisal. She used Martin Fuller in Northern Virginia who is supposed to be a one of the best. His report looks great, the pictures look great, and then I get to the price,....

and throw up in my mouth.

While I know the setting is somewhat subjective, the stone itself appraised for about half of what I paid for it. Presently this strikes me as uncool. I looked at so many rubies, talked to so many dealers, and really thought I got a good deal. But the ruby I paid 9600 for appraised for about 5000 for insurance purposes.

Anyone have any thoughts, or advice? If I insure this for the amount on this appraisal, I have no idea how I would replace it with the amount I received.

Did I get ripped off? Or am I missing something?
 

jszweda

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Do you happen to have the specs on the stone itself off hand as far as size, color. tone, saturation, clarity, etc? Can you scan a copy of the actual appraisal itself? All of that information should be on the appraisal itself if you don''t know off hand.
 

timmy!

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Here''s everything on the report about the ruby


Gemstone: Ruby
Nature:Natural
Shape: cusion cutFaceted
Demensions: 6.28 x5.89, 3.54
depth percentage: 60.1%
Buldge: visable
Clarity LI
Primary color: red
secondary color: Purple
Symetry: Very Good
Color Intensity: medium to intense
Transparency: Transparent
Tone: Medium to Dark
Enhancements: none apparent
additional Description: The ruby was examined as a set. This ruby bears a gublin gemstone report stating country of origin as burma and NTE (no thermal enhancement). The color interpolates between gia GEMset R 5/6 and 7/4
 

jszweda

Shiny_Rock
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I think we both might be missing something here as something doesn''t sound right. I am NOT an appraiser, but just from casual observation, I will say this based on what I have seen in retail at various places.

First off, go and find a Burma ruby. Good luck. If this guy is saying it''s in fact a Burma ruby, I know those bring a premium.

The rubies I have seen, regardless of origin are not cheap. If you have a 3.54 carat stone, and it''s $5000 according to the appraisal, that''s ~$1400 a carat. That doesn''t sound right for retail cost to be honest.

As of sometime last year or so, I recall seeing a retail price guide from somewhere, and it said for a 2 carat stone, pending the specs, 2 grand a carat to 20 grand a carat. I think 20 grand a carat is probably for something like an IF Burma with no silk and all that goody stuff.

I have seen rubies in smaller sizes that are red but silted for more than that. If yours has some silk in there, that might explain the LI clarity. Regardless, a 3.5+ Burma ruby is nothing to sneeze at.

If you came to some of the stores my way, I can tell you what you could get for 5 grand. You might get a solitare with a carat and change center stone, and a simple setting. You want really good diamonds with that? Well, there goes that 5 grand price bracket. If you want bigger with a silted pink, that''s doable too. You want red? Burma? Not around my way, and certainly not that size, and it won''t be for 5 grand if you do find it.

I will take back that last part. I do recall seeing an appraised Burma ruby for over 5 grand. Wait, it was a completely opaque bowling ball looking zoned to hell star ruby. I don''t recall the size, but it gives you some kind of reference.

Unless we''re both missing something, the only thing I can think of is if he put a lower value down to save you the insurance money. Then again, I really don''t know how much or how little play there is in these things as far as that goes.

Ask Richard Sherwood or someone like him on here. He''d tell you straight for sure on these things.
 

Pandora II

Ideal_Rock
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If I recall correctly your stone was 1.19ct wasn''t it Timmy?
 

timmy!

Rough_Rock
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3.54 mm deep

the stone weighs 1.13 carats. the size you saw were demensions
 

jszweda

Shiny_Rock
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Date: 1/5/2007 8:01:33 PM
Author: timmy!
3.54 mm deep

the stone weighs 1.13 carats. the size you saw were demensions
That explains it then. I thought it was 3.54 ct. What are the specs on the setting or did you just get the loose stone appraised?
 

elmo

Brilliant_Rock
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That looks like a killer ruby. Something relevant you might want to read about ruby appraisals here. You wouldn't be the first person in this situation.
 

bar01

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Date: 1/5/2007 6:59:44 PM
Author: timmy!
This ruby bears a gublin gemstone report stating country of origin as burma and NTE (no thermal enhancement). The color interpolates between gia GEMset R 5/6 and 7/4


Well - that is a bit of a range on the GIA scale - R5/6 to R 7/4. If you had to replace it a more specific GIA grade would help you do so (IMHO). Perhaps a second lab/appraisal is in order.

Looking though your old posts - you bought this stone through a local high end B&M store?
 

timmy!

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no this stone was purchased from a small local dealer recomended on this forum
 

Richard Sherwood

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Sometimes I've appraised low on a client's item, especially an esoteric item like an ultra fine quality unheated Burma ruby.

I've begun asking my clients "Do you have any questions about the value I've assigned to your [gemstone article], in relation to what you paid for it? Do you feel comfortable that you are adequately covered for insurance?"

If a situation like your's arises, then I say, "Let me do this. Let me do some more investigating, call some more dealers, check some more comparables. Could you also furnish me a copy of your invoice, and give me permission to call your supplier? If I have under appraised your item then I'll be happy to increase the appraisal once I have sufficient information to allow me to do so."

I know this isn't the situation in your case Timmy, but you'd be amazed how many clients will start waffling on their assertion that they paid more, refusing to allow me to see their invoice or call their supplier. This happens probably the majority of the time. When it does, I know immediately they were exagerrating their purchase price, and were just looking for a big appraisal for one reason or another. Then I let my appraisal stand as it is, without putting any further work into it.

On the other hand, if they do furnish me a copy of their invoice and allow me to speak to their supplier, then I investigate further. I check out the market level the seller operates in, listen to what they have to say and then get on the horn with other suppliers and check comparables more extensively.

Sometimes I have been wrong. Some of these rarified, ultra-high quality, non-treated stones from an important country of origin can really "spike" in their prices at that last "9 or 10" stretch in the ultra-fine quality category, often more than most gemstone guidelines indicate. Additionally sometimes clients have purchased from a high end operation which commands a legitimate premium. In these cases I make a comment indicating so, and adjust the appraisal accordingly.

I would give Martin Fuller a call and ask him if he could investigate further for you. Offer to show him a copy of your invoice, etc. Perhaps he might find information which would cause him to revise his figure, perhaps not. If not, then a second opinion and/or further investigating might be in order.
 

Kaleigh

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Date: 1/6/2007 5:24:52 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Sometimes I''ve appraised low on a client''s item, especially an esoteric item like an ultra fine quality unheated Burma ruby.

I''ve begun asking my clients ''Do you have any questions about the value I''ve assigned to your [gemstone article], in relation to what you paid for it? Do you feel comfortable that you are adequately covered for insurance?''

If a situation like your''s arises, then I say, ''Let me do this. Let me do some more investigating, call some more dealers, check some more comparables. Could you also furnish me a copy of your invoice, and give me permission to call your supplier? If I have under appraised your item then I''ll be happy to increase the appraisal once I have sufficient information to allow me to do so.''

I know this isn''t the situation in your case Timmy, but you''d be amazed how many clients will start waffling on their assertion that they paid more, refusing to allow me to see their invoice or call their supplier. This happens probably the majority of the time. When it does, I know immediately they were exagerrating their purchase price, and were just looking for a big appraisal for one reason or another. Then I let my appraisal stand at it is, without putting any further work into it.

On the other hand, if they do furnish me a copy of their invoice and allow me to speak to their supplier, then I investigate further. I check out the market level the seller operates in, listen to what they have to say and then get on the horn with other suppliers and check comparables more extensively.

Sometimes I have been wrong. Some of these rarified, ultra-high quality, non-treated stones from an important country of origin can really ''spike'' in their prices at that last ''9 or 10'' stretch in the ultra-fine quality category, often more than most gemstone guidelines indicate. Additionally sometimes clients have purchased from a high end operation which commands a legitimate premium. In these cases I make a comment indicating so, and adjust the appraisal accordingly.

I would give Martin Fuller a call and ask him if he could investigate further for you. Offer to show him a copy of your invoice, etc. Perhaps he might find information which would cause him to revise his figure, perhaps not. If not, then a second opinion and/or further investigating might be in order.
Great advice as always Richard. Good luck timmy!!!
 

RockDoc

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The fact that this stone has a Gublien report stating it wasn''t treated, is a bright notice that this is not the ordinary quality ruby.

In that these stones are uncommon, the market data research, done properly, can take an extroadinary amount of time.

When I am approached to do such items, I discuss the necessity of doing the correct amount of research. It is most common that clients think we, as appraisers should know "instantly" the values of their item. Clients balk a lot at charging them by the hour, for more than an hour to assess the piece, confirm authenticities, perform the requisite market data research, photograph the item and write a report that "covers all the bases".

Timmy I am not saying you did this, but I am wondering if you were told that such would be needed in valuing such a ruby.

This is where the appraiser needs to contemplate if the "risk" is worth doing the assignment. I probably got 20 phone calls last week that clients wanted to know a definate price I would charge to appraise items that iniitially they tell me are just "average items", and then upon asking for descriptions they have expensive stones, Rolex watches, south seas pearls, and want you to tell them how long you''d spend doing the assignment. One lady who called me last week told me she had about 10 items like this.... and wanted to know whether or not I could complete everything in 2 hours.

Needless to say, I don''t take on such work. I know there are plenty of people who will write a one or two page report for ten items, and charge a low price per item. I just can''t in good conscience take on such assignments where I am so limited by the client, that my reports are not made at the level of which I want to do them.

Many appraisers are happy to rely on PRICE GUIDES, and limit their research of an item to the prices in these guides. Sometimes the prices are reasonably accurate in them, other times, they are way "off the mark". Some markets are perplexing to understand, as we see some items that have extroadinary prices that vary wildly. This is usually true for burma untreated material such as this stone is. To be certain, it takes sometimes "exhaustive" comparables research, which can take hours, result in international phone call expense, and more.

The appraiser professional appraiser needs to make good decisions and inform the customer of what is required, and hopefully the customer will understand, and want to have the job done "right" rather than cheap, but in all honesty most only want a cheap work product, which if is too limited in scope, it is best to do not take on the assignment at all.

Rockdoc
 

timmy!

Rough_Rock
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I think this is good advice. I''ll call Martin when he''s back in the office on wednesday. I was just surprised by HOW off he was. At first I thought I must have been ripped off. But I looked for over a year. I looked at cherry picked, I looked at wink jones. I looked at high end jewelers downtown, and low end discount places. Bottom line if it was over a carat, and really high quality, everyone wanted 7 - 10k a carat. Everyone.

And the high end places told me I couldnt get anything for less than 10k. I''m glad I didnt pay the 8k for the treated ruby they were trying to sell me. That would have probably apraised for peanuts!

I''ll keep you posted. Thanks for the advice.
 

timmy!

Rough_Rock
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and if anyone knows where I can get another stone like this for 5,000 please let me know. I''d take 5 of them :)
 

Dee*Jay

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/8/2007 11:24:23 AM
Author: timmy!
and if anyone knows where I can get another stone like this for 5,000 please let me know. I''d take 5 of them :)

Timmy - I''m glad to see you have your spirit back! Your first post in this thread was so despondent that I was a bit worried for you.

I think if you have the appraiser dig a bit deeper, as others have already suggested, that a more reasonable value will be reached for this stunning stone. Please keep us posted.
 

bar01

Brilliant_Rock
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Date: 1/8/2007 11:24:23 AM
Author: timmy!
and if anyone knows where I can get another stone like this for 5,000 please let me know. I'd take 5 of them :)

Impossible to compare on line - this one is the closest I could find to yours - but it is not burma and does not appear (in photos anyway) to compare to the quality of yours...but thought I might toss it out for the heck of it.

Some burmas shown as "sold" on Cherry appear to have cost more on a per ct than yours.
 

timmy!

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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the price is right for my appraisal, and it clearly shows that a same priced stone is not of the same caliber.

That ruby has clarity issues, is cut deep and doesnt show as large as mine, and is madagascar, not burmese.

I''m going to talk to Martin Wednesday.... I''ll let you know what he says. I wish I could find other rubies of this size and quality that have sold though. It would be nice to have the data for comparison.
 

timmy!

Rough_Rock
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To clarify though....I''m not trying to get Martin to inflate the value just becuase. If I over paid for this stone, then I''m a sucker and so be it. I may never purchase from the dealer who sold it to me agian, but I''m not blaming the appraiser.

I''m 100% concerned with insurance covereage. If the rock ever falls out of this ring....I want to be able to replace it. And in the time that I spent looking I couldn''t find anything that looked like this for 5k.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/8/2007 3:31:07 PM
Author: timmy!
To clarify though....I''m not trying to get Martin to inflate the value just becuase. If I over paid for this stone, then I''m a sucker and so be it. I may never purchase from the dealer who sold it to me agian, but I''m not blaming the appraiser.

I''m 100% concerned with insurance covereage. If the rock ever falls out of this ring....I want to be able to replace it. And in the time that I spent looking I couldn''t find anything that looked like this for 5k.
sounds like you know the market better than the appraiser which isnt that uncommon with colored stones.
In your shoes id have sent it off to Richard Sherwood for the appraisal.
RockDoc would be a good choice also.

Other than those 2 and maybe Dave Atlas as a 3rd I dont know of any appraisers Id use for a high end ruby or other top end colored stone.
 

Modified Brilliant

Brilliant_Rock
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RockDoc is correct (he usually is!!).
An appraiser just can''t rely on price sheets alone..especially regarding the valuation of better quality colored stones. It''s so important to take the time to do the research and make the necessary phone calls.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 

RockDoc

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Date: 1/8/2007 3:23:54 PM
Author: timmy!
the price is right for my appraisal, and it clearly shows that a same priced stone is not of the same caliber.

That ruby has clarity issues, is cut deep and doesnt show as large as mine, and is madagascar, not burmese.

I''m going to talk to Martin Wednesday.... I''ll let you know what he says. I wish I could find other rubies of this size and quality that have sold though. It would be nice to have the data for comparison.

For items like this a report of the comparables research should be included in the report providing you wanted it

The time to do this costs more, and not everyone is really qualified to do it, but you should been offered that option.

But if the intended use is just for insurance, not many appraisers do this.


You should ask Martin what research he did to come up with the value conclusion he did. I would think he is qualified to do such an assignment.

This would probably take 2-3 hours, plus the time to write the information into the report. Appraiser''s hourly rates will be different probably from $ 75.00 per hour to $ 300.00 per hour.

Rockdoc
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/5/2007 9:28:32 PM
Author: elmo
That looks like a killer ruby.

I second that. I hadn''t read about it before this thread. It sounds as if you got that one in a thousand (maybe not a million) you really have to search for! Congratulations.


Deb
34.gif
 

RockDoc

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Here''s an interesting one.


Ruby Sets New Auction Record
On April 12, the ruby world was abuzz with the news that a new auction record had been set at Christie''s New York. The final hammer price of $2.2 million yielded a staggering $274,656 per carat for the 8.01 ct. stone, which was purchased by a private client in Asia. This bested the previous record of $228,252/ct. set back in 1988 with a 15.97-ct. stone.


From AGTA LAB UPDATE REPORT


This ruby is of course a lot larger than timmy''s ruby. 8 Carat natural untreated rubies are of course a lot rarer than his, and woth many times the price.

There''s a 7 carat difference ( I don''t know about clarity, cutting and color difrerences in his stone and the one above).


The above ruby was set in a very nice ring with diamonds..

Obviously. there are better comparables for his stone, INCLUDING the price he paid. Sometimes a completed sale, even if more or less, is the best evidence of a valid comparable. Don''t think these are really comparable but just a sampling of two recent sales at auction.

But from $ 5K per carat to $228K per carat is an "interesting" leap.

An 8.00 stone and a 15 carat stone are far more rare and pricey.

I am sure whomever sent the stone to Gublein, didn''t send a "bargain basement" type stone for their analysis, as they are expensive.

Just some stuff to ponder.

Rockdoc
 

elmo

Brilliant_Rock
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More relevant info...quoting the same source in a different article here:

In the latest issue, The Guides Gem Market News announced 2006 price increases in natural unenhanced ruby and sapphire in the extra fine grade at between 50-100%. This follows a 35-100% increase in 2004. The Guide is a trusted industry resource with price grids for most colored gemstones as well as diamonds.
He mentions that the increases are biggest in larger sizes, but it looks like market conditions are changing fairly rapidly for stones like this.
 

starryeyed

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Date: 1/6/2007 6:27:06 PM
Author: RockDoc
Many appraisers are happy to rely on PRICE GUIDES, and limit their research of an item to the prices in these guides. Sometimes the prices are reasonably accurate in them, other times, they are way 'off the mark'. Some markets are perplexing to understand, as we see some items that have extroadinary prices that vary wildly. This is usually true for burma untreated material such as this stone is. To be certain, it takes sometimes 'exhaustive' comparables research, which can take hours, result in international phone call expense, and more.
Timmy, I know exactly how you feel! The same thing happened to me! I have a 4.3-carat pink Ceylon sapphire VVS+ clarity, gorgeous vivid color. The GG told me the thing was worth like $4K or something (less than I paid). Yeah right - try to buy one for that! It was such a disconcerting experience. First I doubted my purchase, then I realized the GG, although a fair-minded guy, had no clue about the pink sapphire market. As RocDoc suggested, the GG relied on price guides that were totally inaccurate.

The selected GIA color can greatly affect the value from the price guides, and my guy didn't get it right. The amount of purple in the color grade can greatly reduce the value. Unfortunately, even though the GIA gem set seems large, it does not contain all colors and is pretty limited, in my opinion. In your case, I would be concerned about the interpolation that your guy did because of the "purple effect" on pricing.

So at the end of the day, my GG re-evaluated the stone and called a jeweler to actually find out about pricing and the current market. He revised the appraisal to $8K, which was much more reasonable.

As it turns out, I got an AGTA cert done on the stone and it's not heat-treated. So, according to (edited for clarity) another second appraisal provided through my dealer (end of edit), the stone is worth 2.5-3 times what I paid. So the appraisal I had done initially was totally useless.

Bottom line is you have to go to someone who understands the subtleties of the gemstone market - heat-treatment, origin, color, zoning, windows, etc. The GIA system with price guides can be pretty unreliable as value determinants.

I'll be anxious to hear how this turns out for you! Don't worry though - make that appraiser revisit the numbers. He probably has limited market knowledge so you are probably doing him a favor.
 

colorchange

Shiny_Rock
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As it turns out, I got an AGTA cert done on the stone and it''s not heat-treated. So, according to my dealer, the stone is worth 2.5-3 times what I paid. So the appraisal I had done was totally useless.

The effect of heat treatment on price is not so severe. On you stone, I would say a 50% premium, maybe 60%… but surely not 2.5 or 3 times more!!!!!
There is also a lot of questions on heat treatment detection of pink sapphires from Madagascar that very regularly go undetected.
 

starryeyed

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Date: 1/18/2007 6:16:22 AM
Author: colorchange
As it turns out, I got an AGTA cert done on the stone and it's not heat-treated. So, according to my dealer, the stone is worth 2.5-3 times what I paid. So the appraisal I had done was totally useless.
The effect of heat treatment on price is not so severe. On you stone, I would say a 50% premium, maybe 60%… but surely not 2.5 or 3 times more!!!!!
There is also a lot of questions on heat treatment detection of pink sapphires from Madagascar that very regularly go undetected.

Thanks colorchange, but I beg to differ. Maybe for lesser quality stones or smaller stones what you say may be true, but for stones of this size (4.3 carats) with great color intensity, incredible clarity, and tons of brilliance, a 50% premium is low. Just try to source it from a reputable dealer. Unless I paid a crazy discount to begin with here are several stones from the NSC to substantiate what I'm saying:

This one has vivid color but VS clarity, not VVS like mine. 4.46 carat, $5K/ct, $22.3K Mine would be $21.5K at this $/ct.

Here is one with less intense color, but similar clarity. 4.81 carat, $3200/ct, $15.4K Mine would be $13.8K at this $/ct.

These NSC sapphires are trading for 3.6 and 2.3 times my pre-cert price respectively. I would agree that the NSC pricing can run a little high, so maybe the multiplier is 2-3 times or that ballpark, instead.

Lastly, the origin of my stone is Ceylon, not Madagascar. I can understand a lesser premium if there is a chance that the treatment cannot be detected, but that is not the case with my stone, nor do I think it's the case with Timmy's stone.

I think this debate is important because it shows how much variability there can be in gemstone pricing. Quality, size, origin, treatment, vendor source, etc. all play a role. Some of these parameters have a subjective element. It seems evident from Timmy's photos and description though that he has a top quality gemstone.
 

colorchange

Shiny_Rock
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To give you datas :

- I bought 6 month ago a bunch of pink sapphires in Ceylon, and then brought them to a lab for testing. There was 25 stones, all sold to me as heated, all between 1 and 2 Ct. 8 tested "No evidence of heat enhancement". I didn't sell these as unheated because they were heated, only the treatment can't be detected. But of course I claimed a premium (here 20-30% approx) because of that, that's stupid but it's the market. With some type of madagascar material, it can go as high as 60 or 70%. That is why AIGS sometimes states "No evidence of wether the stone has or has not been heated could be found" on these.

The reason is that most these stones are heated at the mine, at low temperature. This type of traditionnal treatment usually has limitted effect and fails to be detected.

About the premium, you are comparing two sources.
A number of online sellers target advanced consumers that look for non treated material and claim high premiums. I can tell you that for the very highest quality with Ceylon origin, the premium is approx 60%. If it's Burma, it can go up to 80%. If it's Madagascar, it's down to 30%.
What I state is what I pay. Sellers then do whatever margin they want on the rarer stones. And may misprice up or down sone stones.

About the disclosure : Almost all sellers will satisfy of a big lab stating "No evidence etc" to say a gem is unheated. That's lying to the customers. AIGS for instance will state unheated if there is direct proof a gem was not heated, that is extremely rare. If they don;t state it there is no proof.

My policy is to state a gem is unheated if it's from a sufficiently trusted source for which heated/unheated assertion have never been disprooved. Else I just state what the lab states.
I think it's more fair. Of course, I do know that whenever I sell a "no evidence etc" to a jeweller he will offer it as unheated for sure to the final client.


I particularly appreciated a statement found on a untreated (i'M SURE) orange sapphire from Madagascar out of the AIGS :

"No evidence of heat enhancement was found on this stone. Low temperature heat treatment remains a possibility."
This stone had evidences it was not heat treated at high temperatures but failed to show evidence that it was or was not heat treated at low temperatures. I wich more labs stated their opinion with that much precision.
 
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